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First session of my new HeroQuest campaign is over. I'll bring up a few points.

The Players

Johan was in my Well of Souls game, my Sorcerer game and has playtested a convention scenario for HeroQuest that I wrote. Johan played Gavin, the clan chief priest, who's goal is to replace the current clan chieftain with someone more religiously acceptable.

Jesper was in my Well of Souls game. He played Jotarlys who wants to become clan chieftain himself.

Ola is an old roleplaying buddy of mine, but we haven't really played since I came out as a narrativist. He played Abraxalor, who's goal is to create his  own destiny.

I am the narrator (GM).

See this thread for a description of my preparations and character creation.

Important points

I was tired, and should have tried to get some sleep before the gamer began. I was not the only one, by the way. This tiredness affects me more than it used to. It makes me a worse GM, and notably so.

We are using some scene framing rules that I created, heavily inspired by PTA. See this thread. It didn't really work out that well, mainly because only one of the players chose to frame a scene. ANd I was tired and slipped into old habits. Next  time I will try a different approach. I will frame the first scene. We will play the entire scene without any cross-cutting or anything. Then I will turn to the player with the most scenes to frame this session and ask him to frame the next one. If he needs advice or suggestions, I will aid him. When that scene is played, I'll turn to the next player, and so on. Apart from the very first one, I will not frame any scena until every player has framed one. Period.

The scene that was framed had great potential, however. However, I could have handled it so much better:

Jotarlys had agreed to hide an outlawed family from the Lunar authorities. Among the family members were a 7-year old boy with a serious mental condition -- touched by the trixter god Eurmal.

Ola wanted his character Abraxalor to find this out, and framed a scene with this as the explicit goal. We rolled Abraxalor's perceptive abilities versus Jotarlys ability to hide the refugees. Abraxalor lost, but nothing never happens, so I decided that Abraxalor encountered Belonni -- the commander of the mercenary band he used to work for -- and twenty well-armed soldiers. Belonni was under orders from his employers to find the very same refugees that Jotarlys was hiding. So far, I played it right, I think. It could have been a great scene.

Belonni and his men started searching the buildings of the village, and soon everybody showed up to watch the spectacle. All the player heroes turned up, as did Roganvarth the clan chieftain was there.

Further complication: Belonni is a good friend of Jotarlys'.

Now the question was whether Belonni would find the outlaws or not. Here is my first mistake: I had Belonni roll against Jotarlys' ability to hide people. When Jotarlys won, I described a semi-funny scene where Belonni actually heard the mad screams of the hidden 7-year old trixter boy, but failed to recognized that this was one of the outlaws he was looking for.

The real question was this: Will the 7-year old mad boy throw a fit and reveal his, and his family's, hiding place or not? The kid should have been part of the contest! Roll Jotarlys hiding ability versus the kids madness augmented by Belonnis search ability. If the kid wins, he blow the whistle and all hell breaks loose. Alas, that's not how I did it.

My next mistake was to just end the scene there. Why didn't I take advantage of this great opportunity for interaction? What if Belonni and his men had decided to stay the night? That's only one example.[/list:u]

More later ... it is half past midnight and I need my beauty sleep. Meanwhile, feel free to comment or ask questions.

Question:
Do you have similar first-time experiences regarding player-driven scene framing as I did (see below)?

Cheers,

Hi Peter,

It sounds like general sleepiness alone was making it hard to keep track of what to apply to what conflict- how much harder must it be to try to have numerically scaled system for scene framing on top of it?  Especially if most of the players aren't used to the idea!  

My recommendation would be to drop the alternate mechanic, and, if you want players to frame scenes, take the idea from Trollbabe- that is, players can request scenes, at any time.  If you can get players comfortable with this, and yourself, then look into other options- but I bet you won't need them.  Get them used to framing scenes, get yourself used to either framing them or asking, "What kind of scene would you like?" as instinct.

For anyone but new people to the hobby, there's a lot of ingrained assumptions that take time to overcome.  From my experiences with Trollbabe, players first had to be constantly reminded and nudged that they could frame scenes, and I did so by swapping out the classic GM'ing "What do you do now?" for "What kind of scene do you want?"

Overall, I think your group will get a natural feel for focusing the story on one, or a few characters with long term play, without requiring something as heavy handed as the PTA approach for it.

Chris

I have recently made my PbEM game more player-driven for scenes, I think to good effect. But even with the time available between posts, I don't think it is easy to (a) respond to the new directions imaginatively and in good time and (b) detect the direction the layer wants it to go. So,  I was wondering how I would ever even attempt it FTF.

I think you just need more time to work these things out in a more player-driven situation. Explicitly asking for time out is one way. Perhaps a more imaginative way would be to hand over the potential consequences of a victory or defeat to the players.

Beyond fine theories though, you were tired, so don't beat yourself up about it.

Cheers,
Sam.

Hi Chris,

Your valuable input is always appreciated.

I may very well end up dropping the scene framing mechanic, but not after just one session. Without using it in one or two more times, it is hard to say whether it accomplishes what I want or not. However, I don't think it is hard to handle. Basically, if you frame a scene you are rewarded with hero points.

Please remember that I rarely add house rules to games anymore, and its not as if I haven't played HeroQuest extensively as written before tinkering.

Quote from: Bankueiif you want players to frame scenes, take the idea from Trollbabe- that is, players can request scenes, at any time.  If you can get players comfortable with this, and yourself, then look into other options- but I bet you won't need them.

Perhaps you are missing the problem. So what if they are allowed to request scenes at any time if they don't exercise that right? The most important point with the new mechanic is to encourage the players to frame scenes and get them thinking in terms of scenes. How is dropping the mechanic going to help? The ingrained assumptions that you talk about is exactly what the mechanic is supposed to help get rid of.

Asking "What kind of scene would you like?" rather than "What do you do now?" sounds like good advice. Actually, that's what I tried to do.

The bottom line is that the players, like most players, aren't comfortable with doing what they consider is the narrator's job. By being heavy-handed I want to show them that they can frame scenes, that it works and in fact can make the game more focused and more fun! I am looking for a tool to help the players adress premise more regularly.

I don't want this:

Player: Eh...um... this all happened in the evening so I guess all I can do is to go to bed...

GM: Okay. You sleep. What kind of scene would you like now?

Player: After breakfast I guess I put on my armor and ride towards Battle Valley.

GM: Okay. What do you want to do in Battle Valley?

Player: Eh ... I want to talk to the leader of the trolls that live there.

GM: (Frames a scene where the player tries to get an audience with Queen Martolaz of Battle Valley.)[/list:u]

I want this:
Player: I go to see Queen Martolaz.

GM: Cool! (Frames scene).[/list:u]
This would be even better:
Player: I arrive in Battle Valley at midnight. The troll scouts noticed my approach long ago, and have been following me in the background. A dark troll warrior and his entourage, all riding gigantic beetles, halt my approach.

GM (as dark troll warrior): "Go home, hooman!"[/list:u]
Any suggestions?

Cheers,

Hi Sam,

Than you for your kind input and encouragement.

I come up with things on the spot all the time as a narrator. You probably do too. Sometimes I've found that it is necessary to ask for time out, but most often I just ask myself "what would the NPCs in this scene do?" or "how can I make this situation more interesting (meaning more conflict)?"

All the best,

Hi Peter,

QuotePerhaps you are missing the problem. So what if they are allowed to request scenes at any time if they don't exercise that right? The most important point with the new mechanic is to encourage the players to frame scenes and get them thinking in terms of scenes. How is dropping the mechanic going to help? The ingrained assumptions that you talk about is exactly what the mechanic is supposed to help get rid of.

Well, perhaps if I illustrate it this way: If the players are not used to framing scenes to begin with, a mechanic that says, "Anyone can request or informally frame a scene at any time" is easier to remember than, "You can frame a scene X amount of times per session, with X depending on what you've chosen ahead of time."  

The latter turns it into a resource mechanic similar to Hero Points, and although the players might hoarde the opportunities, trying to "save" them, they ultimately won't get as comfortalbe framing as much as if it's always available.  Also, by turning it into a resource mechanic, people typically go through a little checklist in their head, "What is the benefit if spending this?" and unless the benefit is large and clear(as it is with Hero Points), they'll play it safe.  And they'll only learn the benefit by getting a chance to experiment and try out scene framing...

I think the constant nudging for input is a form of being heavy handed, but in an easy to understand, easy to learn fashion compared to resource mechanics added on top of a completely new concept.  The truth is, there is no instant way to get your players to become those active scene framers in a day, it takes practice.

Sometimes, what I will do, is add a "Free & Clear" phase to scene framing.  Then if no one puts any input, I toss out a heavy scene and let them deal with it.

GM:  Hey, I'm thinking of a scene where you confront the chief about marrying his daughter, how does that sound?  Anything you want to put in on that?

Player:  Uhh, um, I don't know.

GM:  Ok...  You and her are out riding one day, and afterwards you end up roughhousing and tumbling in the fields.  You're looking in each other's eyes, about to kiss... when- the Chief shows up!

Player:  !!!

Eventually players start wanting to use that input :)  Not to say I'm out to screw them up, but I put them in situations with serious conflict issues and either they love it, or they hate it.  Either way, it encourages them to try to add to it (spike it) or at least be the crafter of their own conflict.

Just some thoughts.  Hopefully you'll have an easier time with your next game.

Chris

Hi Peter,

I'm not sure whether this'll be helpful or redundant, but apply to taste: Mike's standard rant #7: You can't sneak up on mode.

Best,
Ron

Chris,

Quote from: BankueiIf the players are not used to framing scenes to begin with, a mechanic that says, "Anyone can request or informally frame a scene at any time" is easier to remember than, "You can frame a scene X amount of times per session, with X depending on what you've chosen ahead of time."  

The latter turns it into a resource mechanic similar to Hero Points, and although the players might hoarde the opportunities, trying to "save" them, they ultimately won't get as comfortalbe framing as much as if it's always available.  Also, by turning it into a resource mechanic, people typically go through a little checklist in their head, "What is the benefit if spending this?" and unless the benefit is large and clear(as it is with Hero Points), they'll play it safe.  And they'll only learn the benefit by getting a chance to experiment and try out scene framing...

Aaaaahhh. I see. Yes, you are probably right. Next session I will not limit the number of times a player can frame a scene. Especially since I think they need to frame more scenes, not less.

And thanks for the practical advice as well. I'll keep it in mind.

Important note: Awarding hero points for scene framing is just a technique I wanted to try out. It is not the point of the game, and I never thought it would somehow magically elevate the game to a higher level or anything. If it helps focus the game a little bit, then it is good. If it doesn't I will not use it again. We'll see.

Cheers,

Hi Ron,

It is a good point, but I'm not trying to sneak up on mode. This is just a little experiment that may or may not work out as I intended. I emphasize it here since it is new to me, that's all.

Cheers,

Reminder: Abraxalor, Gavin, and Jotarlys are player characters.

Important events in the session (slightly out of order)

Jotarlys was asked by his friend Inganna Speaks-with-Horses to hide a family outlawed and hunted by the Lunar authorities. He did. See my first post in this thread for details.

Tormakt sent a messenger to Gavin, the chief priest, asking him to speak to his father in law (King Ranulf of the Culbrea). It is imperative for Tormakt's plans that the upcoming conflict stays local. If it turns into another round of inter-tribal warfare it will get out of control. Tormakt wanted Gavin to ask King Ranulf to stay out of the conflict. Gavin agreed.

Gavin's wife Ismynda wanted to come with him to her father's hearth, but Gavin refused. Ismynda (who loves her husband deeply, remember?) gave him a necklace to give to King Ranulf, to show that she supports him. Important: Gavin didn't tell his well-meaning wife anything! This is classic tragedy material. In fact, the player had Gavin treat his wife quite badly and suspiciously, which surprised me a little. However, this makes her devotion to him all the more interesting, I think.

Ranulf agreed to stay out of things. There was no need to ask, actually, although I played him grumpy, offended and reluctant.

Abraxalor joined a ritual where Tormakt and his entire household magically severed their relationships to the Owl Clan. The Humakti warband known as the Temple of the Wooden Sword helped them out (see Masters of Luck and Death). I'm still not sure whether the ritual successfully severed Abraxalor's relationships or not. We will find out in a flashback next session.

At first, Abraxalor's player couldn't quite decide if he should participate in the ritual or not. First he wanted to let the dice decide for him, but then changed his mind and agreed to do it. I think the player was quite pleased.

Tormakt got word that Roganvarth's brother Estavus had returned from his travels abroad. He asked Abraxalor to assemble a team to intercept and murder Estavus before he was able to meet up with his brother. Abraxalor agreed and asked Gavin to help him out. Gavin wholeheartedly agreed...

Again, I have now idea how this went. We will play this the next session.

Later, Jotarlys sees two hero bands approaching the Owl Clan tula. Tormakt and his band of 20 warriors or so enter the clan territory from the north. The 70 death-worshipping warriors of Temple of the Wooden Sword attack from the east. The Owl Clan has at most a dozen professional warriors; the entire fyrd amounts to no more than 60 men.

Jotarlys, who is the leader of the clan scouts, assemble his men (no full time warriors, but a fair number of hunters and trappers).

Cliffhanger ending.

Notes for the next session

Most of this session will probably be spent on flashbacks, clarifying and emphasizing events that happened before the current invasion. We could have played through all of this last time, but I think the flashback-method will work fine.

--------
GAVIN
--------

The first session wasn't exciting for him at all. His only Bang occurred at the very end of the session! This must change.

Flashback to Reaping Day (a holy day described in Thunder Rebels, p. 213). Gavin gets to lead his worshippers on a trip to the Other Side, where they observe and participate in the mythic actions of Orlanthcarl the Farmer. This flashback will affect the clan's harvest, and consequently the clan members' Undernourished rating.

Note to self: Give the clan a rating in Wealth. Come up with a way to decide how changes in Clan Wealth affects people's Undernourished trait. This can be really cool. Now I can let the upcoming war will affect the harvest as well!

War=not enough people in the fields=penalty to clan's harvest roll=starvation.

Bang: Gavin has kept his wife Ismynda ignorant of the situation, yet is dying to help her husband. Naturally, she will misinterpret everything and do something very wrong, like recruiting warriors from the Culbrea Tribe to help Gavin. This may very well destabilize the entire political situation. :-)

Upcoming Event: Gavin and Abraxalor secretly, but in a hurry, recruiting warriors to assault and murder Estavus and his band. Will Gavin ask his rebel leader ally Orngerin Thundercape for aid? Another potentially disastrous situation, if the Lunars find out.

------------
JOTARLYS
------------
Flashback: What happened with the outlawed family that Jotarlys was hiding for Inganna? Did he manage to sneak them out of the area into safety? Are they still hiding under the boards of the Chieftain's House?

Bang: The family of outlaws are Inganna's own family: Her elderly parents, her sister and her sister's little son.

Upcoming Event: The clan is under attack. What will Gavin do?

-------------
ABRAXALOR
-------------

Flashback to the ritual of the severing of relationships with his clanmates and his family. Was it successful?

Bang: Abraxalor's mother Mikara holds a funeral service for her "dead" son. (Severing relationships the Humakti way is a kind of symbolic death and is treated as such by the relatives. "I no longer have a son. Why, o why did he kill himself?" "But I'm right here, ma'" "You're not my son.") Other people in the clan had friends and relatives with Tormakt as well. Roganvarth realizes what is about to happen, and forbids people to hold funeral rituals for their relatives in Tormaktstead.

Upcoming Event: Recruiting warriors with Gavin for the assault on Estavus.

Bang: Some of Abraxalors mercenary friends are travelling with Estavus.


-----------------
OTHER BANGS
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Frieda (mother of Jotarlys and aunt of Abraxalor) shows up in front of Tormakt and his warrior band, asking them not to attack during harvest.

Cheers,