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Elsewhere (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=14714&start=15), Mike H. said, in reference to syncretism:

QuoteI think that what the rules are intended to support - and I've put some substantial effort into trying to figure this out - is that syncretism is found in terms of specific religions. That is, you don't take B magic keyword from X religion, and B keyword from Religion Y. At least not often (experimental Hero Quests might allow this). Instead, the religion is already extant, the syncretism has already happened, and it offers you the magic keywords from what were previously different religions.

So, for the classic (though somewhat OT) example of religion in England at the time of Robin Hood, the Christianity of the time was apparently forced to accept certain of the pagan Celtic beliefs as part of the religion. The two had melded into one at the time, and the pagan beliefs were slowly on their way out.

Now, what about a country truely in the throws of two competing religions? Well, what I'd suggest is that the "reality" of the gods and such is that they are mutually exclusive, and you can't get magic from both. You can pretend to be in another religion, but you can only "really" be in one. Again, in this case if you want the religion to be truely syncretic, then you'll have to be the one to do the Hero Quests to meld the myths to make it one religion.

...and I said that indeed where magic does tangibly come from the gods (or whatever), it is harder to imagine syncretism occuring.

So, if we syncretism and the related stuff does throw up interesting conflicts, what are they? Overlaying religious ceremonies to smother others, building temples on top of one another, naming saints after the local gods to keep people on board (bottom-up or top-down), political machinations with a spectrum of positions. What else?

And how to use it? Glorantha has a nice mess of religions in Ralios but, unless you call things misapplied worship, they are all functioning happily. But say one religion muscles in on another's holy day?

I'm being vague here as I don't know where this is going. Thoughts?

Sam.

Quote...and I said that indeed where magic does tangibly come from the gods (or whatever), it is harder to imagine syncretism occuring.

Except that it seems to have occured all the time in Glorantha. Yelm and Orlanth, for example, were melded into each other's myths.  HonEel converted Tarsh in part by proving that "She Who Waits" in the Goddess myth is Ernalda. (And went into the Ernalda rites to do it.)

QuoteSo, if we syncretism and the related stuff does throw up interesting conflicts, what are they? Overlaying religious ceremonies to smother others, building temples on top of one another, naming saints after the local gods to keep people on board (bottom-up or top-down), political machinations with a spectrum of positions. What else?

All of this is possible. But in Glorantha it seems a lot of this is done in Heroquesting mode. In other words, you go into the otherworld to prove thise things.  Yes, you do all the mundane aspects, but then you have to prove it by having your magic work. And that is normally big heroquest mojo.

Quote from: lightcastle

Quote...and I said that indeed where magic does tangibly come from the gods (or whatever), it is harder to imagine syncretism occuring.

Except that it seems to have occured all the time in Glorantha. Yelm and Orlanth, for example, were melded into each other's myths.  HonEel converted Tarsh in part by proving that "She Who Waits" in the Goddess myth is Ernalda. (And went into the Ernalda rites to do it.)

Yes indeed, but that is mostly in the past or else somehow doesn't at least jump out as something of immediate import. I mean it does - say Doburdan = Storm god in the Far Place, but...

Quote

QuoteSo, if we syncretism and the related stuff does throw up interesting conflicts, what are they? Overlaying religious ceremonies to smother others, building temples on top of one another, naming saints after the local gods to keep people on board (bottom-up or top-down), political machinations with a spectrum of positions. What else?

All of this is possible. But in Glorantha it seems a lot of this is done in Heroquesting mode. In other words, you go into the otherworld to prove thise things.  Yes, you do all the mundane aspects, but then you have to prove it by having your magic work. And that is normally big heroquest mojo.

...is suffciently removed from the heroes that it isn't an immediate issue for a player, IMO. Of course, one can make it so, but one needs to play with the rules some to do so. A hero is unlikely to be an initiate of Doburdan and Orlanth, for example, because the reprisal daimons and magic fizzling will mitigate against it. A player hero is unlikely to buy into misapplied worship, but one can fiddle with the penalties.

I think what I am looking for is the internalisation of syncretism. More blurring of the boundaries. Yes it is there in Glorantha, but perhaps another example will be more illustrative...

Let us say we are in roughly 16th-18th century Brazil. We have indigenous animism, we have African animism and we have European monotheism (or let's make it more interesting and "fantastic" - polytheism). Keeping it broad, though, let's use those terms loosely.

In terms of the magic which player heroes might use, they are right slap bang in the middle of it - it is now. Something new is arising, a mixture (more than one final mixture) of those three and it is of tremendous political import how it goes. It doesn't need to end up as modern Brazilian Catholicism (less syncretic than in Mexico I think) or Candomble. It'd be nice to think that in this instance the 'Africans' might end up in a better situation.

The colonials are trying to impose their gods on both the indigenous and the exotic animists, so pick up the figures as saints or whatever.

The Africans know how to deal with  spirits but the leopard spirits they know aren't here, they are jaguars. They do have access to the sea spirits/gods (Yemanja Inae etc, West African gods which exist in Brazil). They have been sufficiently brutalised (as in stripped of their culture) that they are looking to something to support them, but their gods are weak.

The indigenous people can see clearly that things are changing. Different individuals or tribes will have different attitudes to the colonials, originally for political reasons. They will also come across escaped Africans (the Zumbi in Brazil) - say these new neighbours have some very powerful magics going down and they want a piece.

A lot of people will have mixed origins. The Mamelucos, European fathers, Indigenous mothers, have been called the first "Brazilians" (as in of the new nation Brazil) and forged the interior which led to coffee plantations etcetera. They have this inbetween status (for the sake of a game) which is more immediate than in Glorantha. In fact, pretty much everyone does.

This is the sort of thing I at least am interested in (the above example is the universe I'd love to create). I don't have a clear 'question' or anything, just wondering how it would go, how you'd make this happen in terms of game play and of rules.

Sam.

Is what you are talking about playing the part of a culture hero who founds a new Brazil? Weaving the strands of national identity into a rope (or binding the rods of the fasces together, on the dark side)?

Some interesting sources for that kind of thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_hero
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mythology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_myth

I'd say the most interesting way to run that is to have the main characters be from different backgrounds, and form a hero band (or constitutional convention) together. Will all backgrounds be present? Who gets left out? And will they be represented by 'token' figures that nobody knows anything about, by an 'Uncle Tom' figure who is commonly seen as betraying their people, or by true heros (or villians)?

In HQ/Gloranthan terms, the new nation's magic comes from worship of the hero band, with some ability to pick and mix different aspects from different members (say, science from Franklin, winning wars from Washington, etc).

soru

Quote from: soruIs what you are talking about playing the part of a culture hero who founds a new Brazil? Weaving the strands of national identity into a rope (or binding the rods of the fasces together, on the dark side)?

Since you put it like that, and with a quick look at the wiki's (good stuff), yes. I don't get the fasces or dark side references though?

Quote from: soruI'd say the most interesting way to run that is to have the main characters be from different backgrounds, and form a hero band (or constitutional convention) together....

Hero bands definitely have syncretic (what's the adjective? sheesh!) potential, and such heroes could indeed be seen as betrayers.

Unfortunately, colonialism is so steeped in brutality, so romanticized in all directions, and remains so very loaded to this day, that I can't imagine it being much fun for a game. It would bring all that White Oppressor, Noble Savage, Downtrodden Slave type stuff so much to the fore that it would be a great test for what Chris and others are discussing elsewhere, but who'd be prepared to take it on? Christianity and British paganism are a long time ago but can still be overemotive for some (I think).

So, where syncretism leads into the cultural equivalent, I think it gets very difficult. I think it would be wonderful to make keywords, say for the Brazilian example, or for the North American (incl. Mexican) equivalents. Or...it would be wonderful to have done so, but it'd be a long journey I think. And then to play it in a constructive, fun way...that'd be a challenge and a half.

You'd get some damned interesting characters, though. Many Japanese Brazilians feel Japanese in Brazil, Brazilian in Japan.

Sam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_%28Star_Wars%29

And yes, there are a lot of obvious downsides to playing in actual real-world history. Maybe one route would be to come up with a lightly fantasized version, something like G G Kay's use of Sarantium as a stand-in for the real Byzantium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots

soru

Hi Sam,

Well, my view has been that Glorantha always has syncretism going on all the time, just in differing amounts.  

Remember that a HeroQuest brings benefits to the community that supports it, so if someone is doing misapplied worship, and eventually starts doing HeroQuests to try to make it official, even if they succeed, most of the time its going to be the small areas that support their new ideas.  In order to make something "official" metaphysically, it is important to not only do the HeroQuest, but also get enough people to back you up on the HQ and buy into the new religious idea.

So in certain border areas where people mix peaceably, I'm sure you find minor cases of the myths mixing and religions growing towards each other.  Places where people are mixing intensely(such as two different tribes banded together against Chaos), will result in faster and more solid syncretism as they end up living together, having kids, and going on HQ's as well.  Then you have places where people are mixing through force or violence, in which case the myths mix, but the deities and spirits of one religion become the enemy deities of the other.  Orlanth and Yelm are a perfect example of this.

But a neat thing is as the Hero Wars progress, and the stakes keep getting higher, people can and will start taking more risks, doing more HeroQuests, back and forth, and through it, all the religions will get mixed around, evaporated, or new ones will rise in their place.

It's an interesting circular logic to Glorantha- metaphysical reality is "proved" by what you see and witness on a Heroquest, but at the same time, what you see and witness is also created by the actions of Heroquesters, yourself and anyone else whose ever done(or will do) a Heroquest.  If you do something different, and see different things, perhaps you "did it wrong", or perhaps you "discovered the older, forgotten way" and are doing it better.  

A fun and worthwhile mystery to ponder regarding all this, is, did the Red Goddess really exist all along and was actually a part of all these other religions from way, way back?  Or was it simply a mortal woman who ascended to godhood and managed to incorporate all these other religions and become part of their mythology through heroquesting and hardcore missionary work?  (No, don't get into arguing the "truth" or canon of this, I'm not interested and it'll just derail the thread, this is here as an example of canon which suggests syncretism on a large scale).

Chris

I agree with Chris in that I think it is happening a lot.

The fact is that heroquests are gone on by oridinary people in Glorantha, let alone Player Characters.  And I don't think you need to initiate to rival gods to syncretise. You can do it by identifying the other god with the person you want them to be.  

But as far as playing in a situation where the religions are all mixed up like you say, I'm not sure what the problem is.  From a rules point of view, what's stopping you?

Quote from: MandacaruThis is the sort of thing I at least am interested in (the above example is the universe I'd love to create). I don't have a clear 'question' or anything, just wondering how it would go, how you'd make this happen in terms of game play and of rules.

Hmmm. I'm not sure what to add, other than what I've said already. But to reiterate;

As I understand it, the intent of the rules, despite there being no actual rule, is that you can only worship the beings of one religion at a time. As such, if there are two religions in an area, you can't combine them simply by applying. That is, if you go from being a Brazilian Animist to taking up Catholic orders, then you cease to be an Animist. Essentially, if you are actually honestly wanting to be a Catholic, the spirits will know that, and will shun you. You'll no longer have access to their abilities.

So the demarcation line between religions is, functionally, which beings you can worship without the other beings of the religion taking away their magical support of you. Rather, a religion is that set of beliefs which allow contact with one set of beings all of whom generally allow one to worship the others without taking away the magic that comes from those beliefs.

So how does syncretization occur? Well, it seems to me that you have to heroquest, to prove that the myths of the adopted being as seen by the other religion are, in fact, incorrect, or that there's another equally valid interpretation. Basically change it so that the being now has a mythic relationship to all of the other gods of your religion.

So, in the case of catholicism accreting spirits, one might go on a myth to change "How the mountain spirit became aware of man" to "How Saint Eusebius learned of the essence of the mountain." Or somesuch.

If you "win" you've either "converted" the being in question if the people who used to worship that being come to believe as you do (cause and effect may be reversed here), or you create a new being to worship that has some mythic similarities to the original one. Now, as Chris points out, this doesn't have to be agressive like the Lunars. It could just be that over time, people learn the myths of the other side, and that when they do the heroquests they do them slightly differently each time until one day they discover suddenly that the two beings have merged effectively, or that one has become like the other. But the important thing is that it's been changed such that the entity in question is now allowed by the other entities of the religion.

Now, misapplied worship seems to say that you can't change the otherworld of a being. Or, at least, that it's so hard that when one does create a connection to the being in question, if it's from the wrong otherworld that there's some chance that it won't convert in form.

But, other than that caveat, this seems how it happens to me that the entities from one religion get co-opted into another. Note that I've played an adventure last year at Origins, by Jeff and Bryan where this is precisely what happens.

Make any sense? Does it get at what you're looking for Sam?

Mike

Quote from: Mike Holmes

Quote from: MandacaruSo how does syncretization occur? Well, it seems to me that you have to heroquest, to prove that the myths of the adopted being as seen by the other religion are, in fact, incorrect, or that there's another equally valid interpretation. Basically change it so that the being now has a mythic relationship to all of the other gods of your religion.

It may be that what Sam is asking is: how could we model this without the overt Heroquesting of Glorantha?

If we're talking about a universe in which magic is subjective, subtle or nonexistent, the sort of things Gloranthans get up to on a regular basis aren't going to feel quite right.

Another real world example that doesn't follow the HQ rules is Japan, in which people are both Shintoists (animism) and Mahayana Buddhists (arguably theistic); and sometimes Christians as well. Maybe it's all just common magic?

Quote from: droogIt may be that what Sam is asking is: how could we model this without the overt Heroquesting of Glorantha?

Yep.

In truth, Mike said it was a dear subject to him, droog said he'd be interested in thread on it, so here we are - it is all interesting to me.

So yes, Glorantha is chockablock full of syncretism and it is represented in one or several ways. But heroquesting, magical keywords, agents of reprisal, magic going phut phut, three worlds and concentration will tend to lead to a polarisation of an individual's religious situation. That is, they will mitigate against the internalisation of the conflict and the blurring of the bondaries. On the whole.

Droog mentions common magic. I have posted to one of the Y! Groups my house rules for common magic and concentration - basically, CM is fragments of magic which have wandered around as memes and concentration, devotion or whatever does not a priori close any doors. It is counter the canon, but to me is much more interesting as it allows that blurring and internalisation, as well as bringing the source of the CM to the fore.

Allowing more than one magical keyword (especially if running a 17 15 13 sort of chargen system rather than 17 17 17) would I think be a neat way to do it (also more in line with our history). To follow droog's example, a Japanese Brazilian nowadays could easily be a member of a Christian congregation, have some Buddhist philosophical leanings and have Shintoist (I'm probably cocking this up here) shrines to the ancestors at home.

Of course at that level it's doable with stock CM, but it gets more interesting, I think, if your Devotee of Orlanth (at 17) is also an initiate of Doburdan (at 13), your Yelmalian (17) has hankerings after Elmal (13), your Celtic Christian (17) also follows the Old Gods (13), your African animist or theist (17) goes to church every Sunday (13). And...in each of these examples, either you get magic from both sources which pulls you in both directions, or you get no tangible lightshows and remain in doubt.

Yes, you could use CM for those to some degree, but not with the concentration or 3 world rules in Glorantha, plus it too low key - it doesn't have the subtlety and drama of participating in a religious ceremony but having a black cockerel stuffed down your jacket - if the godtalker or priest doesn't detect it, the otherworld entities sure will, and you can't mask it by your superficial piety.

I can sort of picture responses - "But we do that all the time in our Gloranthan game" - if so, I'd be keen to see how (i.e. house rules type stuff). I do, however, maintain (in my argument with myself :-)  ) that Gloranthans involved in religion (whether mortals or otherworld doodads) serve as pretty good enforcers of purity, piety and so on.

Sam.

I'm curious about your common magic house rules, can you post the link again for me?

Now that I see what you want from the syncretisation, I think something like what you say is the way to go. Note that even in the HQ rulebook, it specifically states you can do this.

(p. 118 - "Initiating to two deities from different pantheons generates many obstacles from both. Such interpantheon worship is rare, and the hero will porobably be forced by the religious hierarchies involved to choose one or the other. Still, gods exist who are basically unattached to any pantheon and so can bypass this problem.")

This is similar to the Lunar Empire situation, where you can presumably a member of the local religion and a lunar, without abandoning either.

Since there is precedent for allowing more than one magical keyword anyway (Common and specialized) I see no reason not to do what you think, a multiple keyword option.  I would say that devotees are probably off limits somewhat though, since rule wise they give up magic from all other gods, even in their own pantheon. But you can always house rule that.

Quote from: Mandacaru
Allowing more than one magical keyword (especially if running a 17 15 13 sort of chargen system rather than 17 17 17) would I think be a neat way to do it (also more in line with our history). To follow droog's example, a Japanese Brazilian nowadays could easily be a member of a Christian congregation, have some Buddhist philosophical leanings and have Shintoist (I'm probably cocking this up here) shrines to the ancestors at home.

I'm stating the obvious here, but isn't our Christian/Buddhist/Shintoist chap an example of multiple religious affiliations rather than multiple magical ones? The Otherworld angle comes into play when magic is involved, but for the casual participant in a religion, this doesn't have to be an obstacle. If magic played a stronger part in RW religions, then maybe this kind of blending wouldn't be possible :)

Common Magic, crucially, is not simply about blending of systems, about magic that originates in the Mortal World, even if the entity that provides it does not. So maybe Christianity and Buddhism both provide Common Magic because the entities involved both incarnated in the Mortal World in order to spread their message.

Anyway, the point about the three (arguably four) worlds model is that specialised religions in HQ are just that: specialised on one otherworld. Where the waters are sufficiently muddied, or where the entity involved refuses to fit into a neat little box (e.g. Donandar) you mostly get common religion. Where there is wholesale cross-system stuff going on (e.g. Aeolian Church) , you get misapplied worship.

There are plenty of exceptions (e.g. Lhankor Mhy's Torvald sub-cult, which allows limited use of sorcery without misapplied worship penalties), but these always seem to be focussed on a single entity (cult, practice, whatever) with syncretically incorporated elements, rather than simultaneous worship of discrete entities from different worlds.

Quote from: MandacaruYes, you could use CM for those to some degree, but not with the concentration or 3 world rules in Glorantha, plus it too low key - it doesn't have the subtlety and drama of participating in a religious ceremony but having a black cockerel stuffed down your jacket - if the godtalker or priest doesn't detect it, the otherworld entities sure will, and you can't mask it by your superficial piety.

Concentration makes things a little bit more complicated, but remember that an individual can concentrate on an entity (e.g. Donandar, Lanbril, Red Goddess) instead of an otherworld. And why can't common religion be just as subtle and dramatic as specialised religions? It doesn't have to be a low-key affair...

Greg once commented (on Misapplied Worship): "I almost wish that we'd called it Mixed Worship and made it the standard type of religion everywhere in the world". The point is this: the 'pure' approach of the specialised religions is the exception rather than the rule. In the context of the iredeemably mixed Mortal World, it is a distortion of the natural order of things to focus exclusively on an entity or entities from one of the Otherworlds.

I'm rambling a bit now, so I'd better stop :)

Does that make any sense or am I missing the point?

p

Good comments. Welcome to the Forge. Got a name we can use so that I don't have to call you Pumpkin or something? :-)

The question of "multiple religious affilliations" is really the crux of it. The problem is that Greg told me point blank that the idea was that the gods and spirits of Glorantha do not allow their magic to be used by people who also worship enties outside of the religion in question.

Or, put another way, the definition of a religion, for practical purposes, could be worship of a group of entities who allow the use of their magic to people who also worship any of the other entities.

Now, practically speaking, you could have a "syncretic religion" that was three pantheons, or traditions, or churches, etc, all smashed into one "religion" for this purpose. The question is one of in-game enumeration. Do you get a "Syncretic Religion X" keyword to go with your homeland, or do you get three separate Religion keywords? It would seem that the prefered method is the former model, with only one keyword, though I'm making some assumptions there.

Now, all this said, a simple way out of the problem is to just allow multiple religion keywords, and to say that sometimes the gods do consider other "religions" to be inoffensive enough to allow their magic to be used by people who worship dieties in the other religion. Or somesuch. Basically ignore my extrapolation of Greg's opinion, and go with something else. This is what I was playing originally, actually.

Hey, Mark! If you're reading, do you want to comment? I think you might have some interesting input to give here.

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesGood comments. Welcome to the Forge. Got a name we can use so that I don't have to call you Pumpkin or something?

Sorry - didn't realise that there was no way to have a username and a real name. I've stuck it into my sig to avoid further confusion. Oh, and you can call me anything you like, but Paul is probably best. Thought it was about time I joined in all this erudite discussion, instead of just lurking and quietly soaking it all up.

Quote from: Mike Holmes
The problem is that Greg told me point blank that the idea was that the gods and spirits of Glorantha do not allow their magic to be used by people who also worship entities outside of the religion in question.

Jealous bunch, aren't they? ;)

I think your definition of a religion is a good one, but it's interesting to note that some entities are more promiscuous than others, and seem happy enough to be worshipped in a number of different forms in a number of different religions. That opens up the whole multiple identity question, though. Is Are Orlanth's various aspects all Orlanth, for example? Or are they separate entities that have been assimilated into the Greater Orlanth?

The scope of some religions (notably the Lunar Way) also completely ignores Otherworld boundaries. And what about Misapplied Worship? Isn't that a good example of someone getting magic outside an entity's 'normal' religion?

I think that the single keyword approach is the most appropriate, because a syncretic religion is necessarily more (or less) than simply the sum of its parts. That said, I would favour the use of the Common Magic keyword as a way of straightforwardly augmenting a specialised religion with some syncretic additional elements. For an example of this, see my (still very much in ovo) approach to Stygianism in Safelster for my game:

    http://www.eiderweb.net/safelster/syran/temporal.html

As you can see, I've been thinking about this quite a bit :)