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For a great many months, I've been spying on the various helpful posts in this forum, and this late evening, I've finally decided to get "out there" with some of my thoughts, specifically about my own issues with my game's design.

My first issue deals with a product's name.  Do you think a game's title necessarily has to describe it?  Examples that come to mind would be Dawnforge or Dungeons and Dragons, and if you'd never heard of either, you still may have an idea about the game inside.  The converse would be games like Amber or Conan, which I suppose would require a bit of name recognition and familiarity with the source material.

My second issue is another basic one, which deals with fleshing out my game's concept (obviously, this is quite specific, but I suppose any help that could be given may be valuable to other designers).  It's a fantasy-esque setting (minus those pesky cliché token/Tolkien races), taking place in the "ancient" or "classical" equivalent in this world's history (think: ancient egypt, sumeria, babylon, rome, greece, and the like rolled into one), with a high emphasis on adventure.  The idea is that the exploits and actions of heroes can shape the very history—and destiny—of the world.

I'm wondering if my "working concept" (which I imagine will end up as the back cover text of the final product) reflects the above notions.  Here's a copy of what I have thus far:

QuoteLONG CONCEPT

   In a time and place where legends are born and myths are made, things like destiny and fate have yet to be conceived.  Diverse and exotic cultures evolved from the raw pallettes of Cian strive for dominance, servants of patron gods wielding metal and magic in defense of inherent truths.  A wealth of races and societies clash and combine in the vestiges of the Ancients, forging fledgling empires and forcing feudal rifts between friend and foe alike.  But in this land without precedent, where history has yet to be written, there is only one question . . .

What will be your legacy in this new world?

   The world of Cian is yours to shape.

   Seven unique races inhabit the known regions, each with richly detailed concepts and stories.  Choose from the esoteric Ealosith, ambitious Humans, cunning Lasserteen, sagacious Mosozeenugaabu, secretive Qemen, honorable Ruari, or energetic ShashiAlil.  Whose kingdom will the ages remember?  Whose will be forgotten?

   Epic tales unlike any ever imagined can be fully realized in this vividly described setting.  From the scalding heat of the Maghana Wastelands to the jagged peaks of the Ab Araqan Mountains to the lush rainforests of the Renan River Valley, this living, breathing reality allows for infinite possibilities.

Whose story will you tell?

   The humble student of Nyara do Tikwa, attempting to unite the tribes of the ŋashya dayo?  The skilled Afad thief, retrieving the shards of Arbua to bring about the Holy Return of Arda?  The brash soldier for New Auctonia, fervently struggling to topple the dynasty of the Şha?  The enigmatic priestess of Luxia, on a quest to find the Deliverer of prophecy?

   From dramatic, sprawling sagas to modest character explorations, from swashbuckling adventures to political intrigues, from sweeping romances to classic battles between good and evil, anything is possible in Cian[/b].

Your chronicle awaits.

QuoteSHORT CONCEPT

   Imagine a cohesive alternate realm, a continent of diverse terrains, with seven extraordinarily detailed races and cultures, each with unique societies.  Imagine a world of possibility and adventure, heroic campaigns, and epic legends, where history will be written by you.  Imagine the infinite, and you will be here: Cian[/b].  Your chronicle awaits.

Does this feel unique or interesting?  Does it suffice as a hook?  If not, what elements being further explained or emphasized would make it better?

I apologize for my lengthy posting debut, but for what it's worth, I hope to get active in these threads as I proceed through the designing/publishing processes.

Any help you guys could lend me would be much appreciated!

Anthony
killacozzy@comcast.net

I suspect that this thread will move to Publishing when Ron notices it.

QuoteThe idea is that the exploits and actions of heroes can shape the very history—and destiny—of the world.

I like this a lot.

QuoteLONG CONCEPT...

Does not convey this message at all. It looks like, well, the back of any of a thousand other fantasy games with unpronounceable words in them; if what is awesome about your game is that you can shape the history of the world, then why aren't you making that more clear? I mean, what is important in that concept isn't the world, but your empowerment over it, right?

Now, I realise that a part of you is saying, "But I labored long nights in the cold for that world, by the light of a single candle! Sometimes I had to starve myself to buy paper and ink! That world is a literary congelation of my blood, sweat, and tears!"

I understand. I have one of those settings too.

A lot of people do. It's not a selling point.

SHORT CONCEPT is even worse in this regard. Again, it's putting the emphasis away from where the awesome is, on the world and not the play.

Finally, I am not so sure that Cian is a good title for what you preent as a Mediterranean-flavoured fantasy world; the name brings to mind a stocky Celtic boy rather than an Egyptian pleasure barque. This is probably a completely personal thing here, related to my personal distaste for anything vaguely Celtic, but I think you would do well to use something with more local colour, like ?ashya dayo, even though most people have never even seen an eng.

Now, regarding titles; are you asking for people to compare their experiences with name-recognition against easily interpreted titles? That might be a good topic for a separate thread.

QuoteI mean, what is important in that concept isn't the world, but your empowerment over it, right?

I suppose I should clarify a bit more.  I want to get across that this is a world set in a time of legend.  I mean, when we look back at the founding of civilization, we think of ancient empires like Egypt and the Aztec Indians and the Samurai of feudal Japan.  I want this game to take place during those days, those ever-so-important times when the actions of a hero would shape the future.  I don't have any desire to integrate such empowerment over the setting into the mechanic (which is not to say I intend it to be wholly rigid, either).  I simply want the time and place of the setting to have a sense of importance.

QuoteFinally, I am not so sure that Cian is a good title for what you preent as a Mediterranean-flavoured fantasy world;

Obviously, this concept is setting-heavy, and in that, I've only skimmed the surface on what I have.  It's not exactly Mediterranean-flavored, it just draws from inspirations of ancient times.  I'm surprised anyone noticed the Celtic origins of the word: I ususally pronounce it as [SYE-anne] myself, like the color cyan.  It sounds more pleasant to me.

This setting didn't even start out as a fantasy setting, and I often wonder if it's fantasy at all.  I just have this horrible hatred for all the standard fantasy elements (the elves and gnomes and orcs and wizards and dragons....).  I'm all about the swords and supernatural powers, but I like to think there's a bit more originality out there in the gaming world than to recycle and regurgitate Tolkien a billion times.  So I went ahead and crafted a setting with a host of unique "alien" races, gave them a crazy world of ancient times, and ran with it.  I'd be happy to provide more details if you'd like.

QuoteNow, regarding titles; are you asking for people to compare their experiences with name-recognition against easily interpreted titles? That might be a good topic for a separate thread.

Yeah, I just didn't wanna seem entirely selfish: "Help me with my idea on my very first post!"  So, I tossed in a question that others could relate to in their experiences.

I'm just wondering about the title aspect for Cian.  Obviously, seeing the title alone wouldn't inspire you to pick it up.  But then again, the title of Amber (to someone like me who has no idea what it's about) is just as ambiguous.  How does one arrive at a suitably descriptive name that doesn't sound silly or trite?

Hi Anthony,

I have bad news for you ... no one can tell you what your title "will" do. Will it turn people on? Will it make them shudder and fling the book away? Will it inspire sales? Will it convey all manner of information about the game's subject and how it's played?

This is the same problem that faces anyone who produced a titled work of entertainment (or in the case of RPGs, titled works for entertainment activities). And guess what? It's always going to be a crapshoot.

For instance, I could tell you that as soon as I saw the word "Cian" in your thread title, I said, "Wow! What a name! What is that? I must see it!"

Or maybe I was lying. Maybe I really said, "Oh shit, another stupid weird one-word title that doesn't tell me a thing. I bet this sucks."

My point is that, if either were the case, it would serve you absolutely no purpose whatsoever to tell you. None. Even if you polled 9000 people for such responses, the information would be worthless. And as you expended all that energy to run the poll, and subsequently infinitely more energy attempting to apply its results, ... well, that's a whole bucketload of energy you're not spending on game development.

One of the most useful concepts in creative development is the "working title." You just pick a name for the project, and get busy with the development itself. See? You've named the project, but not the product. This is very common for novels, movies, and many other creative endeavors that involve a lot of labor and represent a lot of financial risk.

The working title may or may not turn out to be the real title. I'm given to understand that "The Brother From Another Planet" was the working title for one of my favorite movies, coined as a joke because they couldn't come up with a "good" title right away, but then they got used to it and realized it was a pretty good title after all. Other times, the working title gets junked at some point, and it's painless because it was never a serious candidate as a title anyway.

So, I can give you no advice about the title itself, but I can give you advice about how to deal with the title: Cian is your working title. Keep it 'til it seems obsolete. Otherwise, go with it and get goin' on the game itself.

Best,
Ron

Quote from: killacozzyI simply want the time and place of the setting to have a sense of importance.

This is an interesting statement that Id be interested in discussing in more detail. What tools do you give players of the game (I'm not just talking about hard mechanics here) to help them bring this about? Are these things that you're able to emphasize in a blurb?

What I'm saying here is that, when selling your game, you are more likely to distinguish yourself in a unique manner by talking about the things that your game does differently and more effectively than other games, rather than talking about the stuff it contains. Does this make any sense to you?

Again, regarding titles, I'm with Ron. We can't really tell you anything that will be at all useful to you.

I've always thought that a game needs to have some sort of central "focus", that is, an overall arc that gives the story itself a direction.  When the game itself has a conflict or other such drive to it, players are joining in on a tale already in progress, and just contributing their adventures to the whole.

Examples:  In Vampire: The Masquerade, there's tales of an oncoming apocalypse (Gehenna, if I recall correctly), so players can point their campaigns towards that event.  In Star Wars, there's that ongoing war between Empire and Rebellion/New Republic that players can join in on.

Originally, I had this "Union of States" that was trying to take over the land, but once I conceptualized my diverse races and cultures (diversity being something that I deemed far more important than a unified "bad guy"), this "Union" was relegated to a subplot, then scrapped all together.  I guess at this point, I'm just struggling with my setting and races and cultures—my world—and I'm trying to find an overall arc to give it significance.

The latest I'm toying with to give this game cohesion is the idea of playing in a world of ancient times with limited history.  I figured this would give the sense that the heroics of characters would be the legends for future ages, but I suppose this is really no different from any other fantasy game.

I'm just stuck with my five unswayable ideas, those being such:
1) several playable races, each with its own distinct culture and separate territory, much like ancient times, with somewhat isolated kingdoms and no sense of global/universal unity....
2) a relatively small "known" world where there is tons to explore.... even if the entire "known" continent/plane/planet/universe has been settled/colonized/explored, this world has the possibility of expansion..... new races.... new places.... exploration of the unknown or long forgotten is key... that sense of wonder is ever-present....
3) in this world, there is no good or evil, just the perception of the parties involved.... i don't want good guys or bad guys, i want an unlimited amount of perspective to dictate morality, thus allowing a broad amount of playability (i believe, after all, that evil is a myth, as even the satanist has a set of moral codes—they just differ from thsoe of us "normal" folk)
4) the broad landscape is a continuous continent/plane/universe where territories can overlap realistically, as such disputes drive the concepts of several races
5) there is no high-tech (lasers, spaceships), though there could be relatively primitive high-magic ("energy" wands with limited power, crystal-powered protection units)


As far as most things go, the GAME itself is not innovative, just like the STORY of Dune is unoriginal.  What makes my game wonderful, like Dune, is the rich setting, interesting characters (races), and weird and unique elements involved.  Problem is: In order to get someone involved in the setting, and the game itself, is to come up with some kind of "hook".  This is what I've tried, and I've, alas, come up with nothing good.

I just don't know where to go with it now.


And Ron, thanks for the unfortunate answer that there is no answer.  I was really hoping y'all would name the project for me.  ;-)

You might want to take a look at Code of Unaris, which has a rich setting as well as a system that highlights its unique features.

Also, if you're really only concerned with the setting, have you thought about using an existing rules-set for it? d20 is the big one, but there's also FUDGE (and FATE), Fuzion, and others. Basically, don't reinvent the wheel unless you have a good reason. (If you're designing the system just for practice, that's a good reason too.) If you start looking at, say, d20, and keep finding places where you go "There's no way d20 can do this thing that's vital for my setting," then those are the important differences.

This forum is a little biased towards suggesting that people make up their own systems. :)

The main reason I haven't just made this another d20 setting or used another system is because I don't want this to be a campaign setting for Dungeons & Dragons.  I want it to be it's own game that requires no prior knowledge of any other systems.

Besides, d20 sucks for the most part.

I have my own simple system that involves d6s, and uses one main mechanic throughout.  It favors description of traits over numerical ratings (much like FUDGE).  I just feel that my adventure setting is the actual game, while the "roll-playing" is just how you deal with task resolution.  It's important, but not nearly as important.


Although, I think of the d20 Star Wars game and don't consider it just a campaign setting for D&D.  Thoughts on the legitimacy of d20?

What about DESTINY?  Perhaps players define, amongst relatively less significant Objectives, a specific Destiny that they will achieve.  Maybe this Destiny is given by an oracle or the game master.  This would be up to the players.  Once in play, the stories are driven by the lesser Objectives, and by that overall sense of preordination.  The struggle within the game is to approach this fate without hubris or arrogance.  It would be a game of Destiny versus the temptation of Pride.  Destiny would act as a means to track character advancement ("LEVELS", if you will), but any negative Pride would detract from the ultimate realization of this Destiny.

Quote
In a time and place where legends are born and history is written, heroes must rise to meet their destinies.  Countless exotic cultures push to achieve their diverse and biased goals against the ever-expanding boundaries of the known world.  But in this land of ambiguous fates, where the future in so uncertain, there lies only one question . . .

What will be your legacy?

What do you think?  A step in the right direction?

Killa, I can tell you I was into your long concept right until here:

Quote
The humble student of Nyara do Tikwa, attempting to unite the tribes of the ŋashya dayo? The skilled Afad thief, retrieving the shards of Arbua to bring about the Holy Return of Arda? The brash soldier for New Auctonia, fervently struggling to topple the dynasty of the Şha? The enigmatic priestess of Luxia, on a quest to find the Deliverer of prophecy?

From dramatic, sprawling sagas to modest character explorations, from swashbuckling adventures to political intrigues, from sweeping romances to classic battles between good and evil, anything is possible in Cian.

Yawn.

Do you know how many games have "7 diverse races?"  Do you know how many games were "sick of elves and wanted something more alien"?  Do you know how many games have as a central idea that your character can be "anything" and the game can handle any sort of story?

About a billion.  If I never see another game that allows me to build any character I want to be in any possible story I'd be a happy frickin gamer.

Here's my recommendation.  Think of a movie set it your world.  You want to make the most freakin cool kick ass movie you can...so you pick the most freakin cool characters you can think of and have them do some freakin cool stuff in a freakin cool way.

Then make your game about THAT.  Make the characters be whatever the cool characters were from your movie.  Anything that wasn't cool enough to put in your imaginary movie ain't cool enough to play.  Structure the game so that those cool characters are doing whatever cool stuff you imagined them doing in your movie.  Whatever wasn't cool enough to be in your movie ain't cool enough to play.

Don't give me a world, fill it up with a bunch of stuff and then tell me I can do anything I want anywhere I want.  Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Figure out what makes your world exciting...write your game about that...and to hell with the rest.  If playing characters dedicated to bringing back the Holy Arda by reassembling lost shards is cool (sounds like it has potential...I can envision a movie around it)...then make that the game.   AND ONLY THAT.  

If there are other cool things about your world other than that...great.  Go back some other time and write some other game about those things.

I can't say anything better than Mike Holmes did.

Mike's Standard Rant #7

-Eric

edit:  All of Mike's standard rants are quality reading.  I highly reccomend them for any aspiring game designer.