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The  On immersion, fascination, and precious moments (long) recently had some interesting speculation about immersion as a form of hypnotic experience, which related to some thoughts of my own. Before I wax theoretical, I'd like to hear about people's actual play experiences in a few categories that seem to me as if they might be related to hypnosis:

Do you or your gaming group have standard protocols for preparing for play - i.e., is there something you always do before or at the start of the session? If so, what does this ritual consist of?

Do you and/or your group ever play with your eyes closed?

Do you feel as if you sometimes enter a different state of consciousness while roleplaying - like being in a dream, intoxicated, giddy, or otherwise not your ordinary self?

For those of you who have some experience with hypnosis or guided visualization, have you ever made a conscious attempt to use its techniques in a roleplaying context? What did you do, and how did it turn out?

(Folks who gave some great answers to these questions in the previous thread are invited to repeat themselves here, even if it's just quoting what you said there.)

QuoteDo you feel as if you sometimes enter a different state of consciousness while roleplaying - like being in a dream, intoxicated, giddy, or otherwise not your ordinary self?

Yes. The most recent strong example, from about nine months ago, involves a dinner we roleplayed. My character, a sorceress I've been playing on and off for 25 years, ate several courses - three kinds of tropical drink, shellfish, roast suckling pig, intriguing plant dishes, and so on, ending with opiated hashish. We roleplayed the meal for about ninety minutes, and it was very much a sort of self-hypnotic, 'eyes closed' kind of deal. It was a big deal in terms of the character's life that she had gotten to the point where she could eat a meal like that - it was a celebration of her freedom.

QuoteFor those of you who have some experience with hypnosis or guided visualization, have you ever made a conscious attempt to use its techniques in a roleplaying context? What did you do, and how did it turn out?

Not a conscious attempt exactly, but I was led in endless guided visualizations as a child attending yoga camp etc. in California, and all of those techniques occasionally come in useful in RPGs. Not just for the kind of immersive play we're talking about here either - knowing how to give people a cue with a certain kind of resonance is helpful as a GM description tool when you want people to pay attention to what you're describing and try to visualize it for themselves.

I'd say 'no' to all your questions. For me immersion is "being there" without any kind of other intoxicated or hypnotic intermediary state.

I get much the same feeling when reading a good book or watching a good film, except that with the RPG I'm not deprotagonised.

I don't understand your response, GBSteve.

I mean, you're not really there, right?

I'd characterize my responses of (what I think is the) relevant kind as relevantly similar to movie/book responses too, 'except that I'm protagonized'. But this seems in turn to me to be more like a 'special' mental state than a normal one.

How can we tell the difference between a 'quasi-hypnotic' state and a 'normal' one? Is there any genuine dispute here?

I'd be inclined to call the book-and-movie states quasi-hypnotic too, because those characters don't exist either, but there's some brutal philosophy lurking right around the corners of this issue.

Hi Fellas,

I have found from my work (as a psychiatrist) and personal experiences on the couch that emotionally charged material can lead to a degree of mild dissociation, whereby there is a separation of perception within the self.

I believe this also happens when (*really*) immersed in a book, an engaging movie or even in playing electronic games.

As far as this equalling hypnosis... well, I suppose there is a degree of overlap, particularly with a state of (not suggestability, but rather) acceptance of input from the media in question...

You have some good questions there Tav, particularly the ones about ritualising the process of play. I have found in my experience, little of this occurring in my groups (me not being GM), but I reckon that sort of thing would be very useful if one wanted to make the play environment conducive to this dissociation.

I wonder too if GBSteve, you are really saying the same thing, but perhaps getting more caught up on Tav's focus on dreamlike/hypnotic/narcotised feelings rather than loss of your (real world) self in play?

Anyway, just thought I would try to muddy up the waters a bit :)

Rusty

Well, I'm still aware of myself. In a game it would be difficult to act if I wasn't. I still roll dice, I still eat pizza, but I also feel 'in' the game world. In fact, when I don't get this feeling, I find it harder to roleplay. Perhaps it's some kind of emotional investment/attachment rather than a hypnotic state, I don't know.

As for what 'being there' means, it is something like the feeling you get when you are aware that you are dreaming. You know you are lying in bed and you also know that you are on a pirate ship flying across the skies of South London. Maybe I don't call it another state because this kind of feeling is very common for me. I get it every time I read a book or see a film.

Thinking about it a bit more, there is something in common with hypnosis, time does funny things in this state. I'd be hard pressed to tell you how long I've been reading when I put my book down and similarly, I'm not so aware of the passing of real time during a game. Maybe this has something to do with why I don't wear a watch.

The 'brutal philosophy' to which you refer interests me greatly. I'm with Dennet on the 'I' being an internal narrative. There's also the question of reality being mediated by senses, and if you ignore the senses then you're pretty free to determine what inputs your brain gives priority to, or which narrative. So when I say 'I am there', it's because what I think of as being 'I' really is there, although my I'm still rolling dice and eating pizza. I just don't prioritize those inputs.

Quote from: Tav_BehemothDo you feel as if you sometimes enter a different state of consciousness while roleplaying - like being in a dream, intoxicated, giddy, or otherwise not your ordinary self?

I remember GMing an OTE session with a prolonged dream sequence. When it finished, I "came down" and found I had a hard time remembering what had actually taken place. In particular, there was a long conversation between a major NPC and the characters where I couldn't remember what it was about.

Hey Tav,

Steven C. Brown's The Everlasting: Book of the Unliving (Visonary Entertainment), includes a ritual for opening and closing the game. It is intended:

"...to intensify the experience and to set it aside from everyday activities. The ceremony contains nothing that is remotely occult or magick-related, but only use this ceremony if everyone is comfortable with doing so. The Everlasting's ceremony is a drama that provides atmosphere and intensity to your legendmaking. It can help you focus on your roleplaying, reach a higher state of consciousness, and suspend disbelief during the session."[/list:u]
Also, check out the text on http://www.visionaryentertainment.com/legendmaking.htm">Altered States of Consciousness:
"Legendmaking is more than creating personal mythology; it is also about transcending your own conscious state to reach some magical level of heightened awareness. There are rare and fleeting occasions during roleplay when you reach an altered state of consciousness; your creativity takes hold and becomes so vibrant that you transcend mundane life. No drugs or alcohol are involved — it all happens through the intensity of your imagination.

Most experienced roleplayers have had at least one experience of this sort, though many long time roleplayers have never even come close. Some roleplayers find themselves in these altered states of consciousness when they roleplay a setting or character for the first time, especially with a talented Guide and others who take the experience somewhat serious. The key lies in preparing yourself for new experiences and in letting your imagination become its own world. The Everlasting provides tips for achieving these states of heightened awareness as often as possible."[/list:u]Word is that they'll release a hardcover second edition of the game at GenCon. No idea if this stuff made the cut. It was a point of criticism by more than one reviewer.

Paul

Steve, in your last post you quite nailed what I myself have been feeling during the examples provided in the other thread (see above), except for the intoxication thing. I have tried to grip it in my new theory thread A tackle at immersion. But I'd be most interested in other people's actual play experiences.

I have the sneaking suspicion that we are really talking about two different sensations here. One is identifying with your character very strongly, the other is imagining the game events very vividly. Both share a certain removal from the real world, thus making them quite alike. For me, though, it has always been the latter. To enlarge:

One of my most captivating games, which I already illustrated in the other thread, was this:

QuoteLegacy of evil - 2004

On a meeting with people from my German rpg forum, I had another experience with KULT that was just as good. We played in the middle of the night this time, with dark music and candles. The plot wasn't all that different, it was again about reality suddenly disintegrating. Yet this time it was more personal. I had given my character a dark secret, he had as a little kid watched his mother kill his father, who used to beat her badly and tried to rape her. She covered the whole thing up and never got arrested.

The GM picked that up and took it much further: She had the mad ghost of my mother come back from the future and hint that my father had been a demon. I had a real good time acting out the impact this had on my character. He got totally fatalistic, wanting to find out the truth behind the veil that was reality at any cost. Again, the interaction between player characters was crucial.

In this game, I used Author Stance all the way. We had cigarette breaks, we talked about the game in between, I was aware of my character separate from myself and constantly musing how this and that event might affect his mental condition, how he might react, and so forth. I made a very conscious decision to have him not turn away but face his mothers ghost and seek answers. One of the reasons was we were running out of time.

So, nothing of "me being the character". And yet the game was extremely intense, with all the vivid imagination stuff, the game world feeling totally real, me getting light-headed and dizzy... Oh well, I had a few beers, too, so that might explain that last one.

- Frank

I think your denial, Steve, is kinda funny. Because I agree with Frank that your description is precisely the phenomenon that all of us are talking about.

The one exception seems to be with the term "intoxicated." I do know that when I've felt this way, that physically I feel somewhat different. I can't say if it's "intoxicated" feeling because, well, I've never been intoxicated per se (for real). But what I've described it as being like is a feeling in the lungs which is similar to how I've felt when I've spent too much time physically exerting myself underwater. I also experience something like tunnel-vision, though not precisely like the ususal version of that. More like it feels like I have tunnel vision than my peripherial vision actually goes away. Hard to describe. But again it's like your "being there" - I know I can see to my left and right, but it doesn't seem that way. In fact, I'll hesitate from moving my head, just so that the effect doesn't go away when I have it. Generally this is true that even moving when in this state tends to mess it up.

Moments like this, BTW, last for me at most about 30 seconds.

Mike

I've experienced a transcendant moment in a LARP.

In this particular gaming experience, I was playing a magic user -- who was praying to a specific goddess (in the game) for assistance to get out of a tight spot.

I myself had a moment of inspiration and figured out what was needed to be done... simultaneously I felt as though I had recieved this via divine inspiration... as if I (through the character) had connected with something beyond myself to find the answer which eluded the party.

Turned out I was right too...

For me... it was a very cool moment.

Quote from: Mike HolmesI think your denial, Steve, is kinda funny. Because I agree with Frank that your description is precisely the phenomenon that all of us are talking about.

I've been thinking about that and I think it has possibly something to do with me never having been drunk and the only drugs I've ever had were medicinal.

I once had some strong painkillers with a euphoric element but they didn't produce anything like my rpg experience. With them there was a detachment from reality whereas with rpgs and fiction I get an intensification. And possibly because it happens all the time for me, such as reading on the train to work this morning, I don't really consider it an unusual or 'other' experience. I get it as a GM too.

Some of it, I imagine, is my brain filling in extraneous detail. I could give a good description of a street the GM only mentions in passing if it's important to my character (or experience as a player). I do a lot of improv as a GM too.

Steve, it seems you are very lucky to have such strong imagination. When I read or roleplay, most of the time, I don't get the feeling of "being there". Rather, I'll focus on the important aspects, analyze, judge. Of course I still visualize certain things, but many details are more of a blur. I guess that's why I like do give detailed descriptions in rpgs—because they help me enhance my imagination.

So when I get "immersed" or however you would call it, it's a precious and cool thing to me because suddenly my imagination is so intense. I get euphoric with the experience, which is probably the reason for the light-headedness, too. Something like tunnel-vision I can't really remember.

I should add that I have had the same feeling on occasions when reading a good book, watching a good movie or TV show, and also when preparing for roleplaying and thinking up characters or scenarios and how they might develop. At those moments, I get very emotionally involved. Like someone else in the other thread, I could easily laugh or cry.

Since roleplaying, for me, often goes along with a little drinking, it's hard to tell how much of that effect is due to the alcohol.

IMO there is a major difference between what Steve describes and what I think of as the potentially hypnotic or trance-state nature of some RPG.  I have experienced both and IMO they are quite different, if only perhaps in degree.  What Steve describes in regards books and films is dealt with under the term "imaginative investment" in contradistinction to "immersion".

On to the questions:

QuoteDo you or your gaming group have standard protocols for preparing for play - i.e., is there something you always do before or at the start of the session? If so, what does this ritual consist of?

Sorta.  I've not attempted to actually purposefully build such a ritual, but the common practice is to wrap up any personal business firsat, including food etc, put on the theme music and give a helicopter shot description as an "opening scene" treating the players as audience.  My conviction is the transition into play should be as explicit, and as purposeful, as the opening moments in a movie.

QuoteDo you and/or your group ever play with your eyes closed?

I have occassionaly seen people close their eyes to thinkk about a problem, and I have done so, but I don't think I have seen this done in an attempt at identification.

QuoteDo you feel as if you sometimes enter a different state of consciousness while roleplaying - like being in a dream, intoxicated, giddy, or otherwise not your ordinary self?

This has occurred to me only on a couple of occassions, and only in the presence of a very skilled GM.  But a point of almost lucid-dreaming, inability to discern which of two senses of the world was actual, restricted tunnel vision such as Mike Holmes describes, all featured.

QuoteFor those of you who have some experience with hypnosis or guided visualization, have you ever made a conscious attempt to use its techniques in a roleplaying context? What did you do, and how did it turn out?

When I was about 14 I was hypnotised by a friend, as an experiment.  This was entirely conducted by voice, in a darkened room.   That did lead to a change in my view of GMing, as since then I have been intrigues by the extent to which tone of voice can alter perceptions and so I consider the voice to be a primary tool.

Quote from: Tav_BehemothDo you or your gaming group have standard protocols for preparing for play - i.e., is there something you always do before or at the start of the session? If so, what does this ritual consist of?

Apart from getting coffee out, and clearing the table to put the battlemat down on if needed (otherwise we don't bother), nothing at all

QuoteDo you and/or your group ever play with your eyes closed?

I was resting my eyes, honest!

QuoteDo you feel as if you sometimes enter a different state of consciousness while roleplaying - like being in a dream, intoxicated, giddy, or otherwise not your ordinary self?

I have done in the past. It tended to occur if I was waiting for awhile before it came round to me to state my actions again. These days I keep myself awake doing puzzles if I'm not involved

QuoteFor those of you who have some experience with hypnosis or guided visualization, have you ever made a conscious attempt to use its techniques in a roleplaying context? What did you do, and how did it turn out?[.quote]

The only extent to which I do this is voice control. By changing the tone/pitch of your voice, you can keep the Players interest, as opposed to a monotone