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Hello, this is my first post to this forum.
First up, as a newbod, I may unknowingly violate unwritten posting conventions.  If there's a more appropriate place for this post, or no appropriate place for it, please let me know.

That out of the way, this is less a game-design post than a setting-design post.  I'd like to get suggestions and commentary from all the people with historical, sociological and paracultural backgrounds on the way that high powered D&D-style magic would change (and integrate into) a medieval world.  Specific suggestions to make it more interesting would also be appreciated.

Certain key presumptions:
*Anyone can become a spellcaster given the correct training.  This is not necessarily known to all should the knowledge be suppressed.
*Interaction with the afterlife is very possible, including speaking with the departed and resurrection (by the most skilled magi).  No information about the afterlife is revealed through these methods(the consciousness does not seem to experience anything while dead).
*Spells require ingredients, not necessarily valuable except as spell ingredients.
*Scientific progress is retarded due to a focus by the learned on magical development.
*Magic cannot overcome old age.

I am mostly looking for wide-ranging societal effects and aesthetics.  Magical lighting enables late-night working, creating a greater general productivity in populated regions.  Ships remain Age of Oar style, because Magi take up less space than cannon.  Area-effect spells devastate formation troops, so warfare may look like Bungie's Myth game (soldiers defeat archers defeat magi defeat soldiers).  Truly important people cannot be meaningfully assassinated or become casualties because they can afford to be resurrected.

Questions, comments, contributions?

Hi there,

To get an idea of posting conventions, check out the top/announcement thread in Site Discussion, as well as the one at the top of this forum as well.

H'm, so we have a big "what if" going on in this post ... My first question is, what for? Are you working on an actual game? Are you considering publishing it, and in what venue? Feedback tends to be intense in this forum, because people feel as if they are being heeded in an actual design project. If that's not happening, let us know now.

Finally, onto the topic. My first call is that the whole concept of "medieval" would vanish instantly. Kings? Inheritable power? Any power that's not based on the negotiated application of magic? Any currency that's not based on access to magic? I'd think all this goes out the window.

What role does cheap labor play in all this? Can Ebeneezer the Mage raise up an Iron Tower and Mighty Keep with his wand, or does it still take a few decades or even generations of back-breaking toil? If the former, then functionally, we have no analogue whatsoever in real human history. (The technological society of today still relies on cheap labor worldwide.) If the latter, then an economic power structure much like the phases of the Industrial Revolution seems most likely. Apply this distinction to the production of food, in particular.

What kind of middle class might develop based on whatever magic-based currency is now most important? Is venture capitalism even possible?

I'd suggest that at the extreme of what you are proposing, mage vs. mage becomes the only relevant issue in terms of temporal power. Sooner or later, someone ends up on top: whoever can work out the most advantageous combination of necromancy, military might, and control over the labor sources. Ultimately, I think you pretty much have the situation in which the Dahrk Lohrd takes over the world and rules it forever and ever.

Best,
Ron

Hi angel...pin, and welcome to the Forge.

Seems to me you will need to stake out the rules of magic in your universe a bit more before you can make social projections.

Best,

Blake

To address Mr. Edwards' points (bear with me, I'm not familiar with the quoting code) I am designing a game, which I plan to publish online, eventually and gratis.  I have not yet examined the publishing advice parts of this site, but plan to in the near future.  I do not presently require assistance with the basic game resolution mechanics, but this site'll be the first to know if I do.
In terms of the medieval society, the idea involves that general kind of society as the starting point, into which working magic is brought.  Then we move the timeline ahead some years and see what has developed.  Part of the point is that the society is no longer medieval, but an alternate development.  While it is possible for the magic to overthrow the old society completely, there are other possibilities.

Mostly what I was looking for was a certain amount of brainstorming as to the sorts of conventions, innovations and aesthetics that might develop.  I'd like to hear more about the idea of alternate currency bases, for a start.

In terms of the cheap labor point.  Hmm.  The spellcasters will have certain limits, not like the Hermetic Limits of Ars Magica but more like practical limits of the energy harnessed.  They are not supposed to be nigh-omnipotent.  Ebeneezer might well be able to raise a castle, but not on the fly, in an instant, by pointing his wand.
It would take time.  Getting to the level of skill to harness and control the energy involved would take decades of study and practice.  You could have less skill, but then it would take more time to complete the castle as there is less energy harnessed at any given instant.  If the materials are present and tooled, less energy is required than if the stone must be unearthed and shaped by magic, and far less than if the materials must be transported from far away or created ex nihilo.  Then, there's the cost in components which may need to be gathered and/or prepared through mass or skilled labor.  If working with another mage to share the burden is possible(and let's say it is), then perhaps the easiest way to do it is to have many less-skilled mages chanting in a big circle.  Which may or may not be more efficient than having your peons do it.  All of this presumes that other developments have not rendered standard fortifications obsolete, but it's just an example.

Time to bastardize a little physics.
One way to look at the development of human society is to examine how much power an individual could have available for use.  Power=Work/Time, so generally speaking, the more you can get done in the same amount of time, the more powerful you are.  Whether you have magic, superhuman strength, or political leverage over feuda lords over serfs, you have power.

Prehistoric humans mostly used their own bodies, so they had individual access to maybe 1/2 a Horsepower.  When horses were tamed, a person could expect to have access to about 1.5 Horsepower.  In the modern USA, a person can expect  to own a car, providing upwards of 150 Horsepower.

Now, a medieval-era King could command thousands and thousands of Horsepower through his vassals.  The point of magic in this setting is twofold, and the first part is to allow certain people to accumulate disproportionate power within their own person.  The second part is to allow them to exceed the bounds of what can normally be accomplished with power in the paradigm.
Hypothetically, if 1 Horsepower will cause the death of a person over the course of a battle, then fifty 1/2 HP soldiers and one 25 HP mage are indistinguishable in terms of killing.  Support required and stealth issues and so on may make the mage more or less efficient.
Yet, just as no amount of soldiers set to the task is sufficient to produce a faberge egg, so is no amount of conventional power enough to allow you to question a deceased individual.

So the first part of the puzzle is that certain technologies are replaced with human equivalents.  Human artillery.  Human electric companies.  Human ?.  The second piece is that normally inaccessible things become accessible.  Weather control.  Seances.  Resurrection.  The third piece is how society responds.

I hope this stimulates some more responses.  This is good stuff.

If magic is simply advanced technology, you can make sociological projections as you would for a science fictional setting.  What else makes magic magic?  How long do rituals take?  Do numbers of participants make a difference?  How about demons?  Rules?  Spiritual costs?  Source of power?  Magic, even the Hermetic sort, is intensely wrapped up with mythic and cosmological questions.  What goes into the element of magic in your setting is just as important for mapping out your fantastic environment as the limits of what can be done.

In the d20 game Dragonstar, which I flipped through in my gaming store (yeah, I'm a sucker for glossy-looking publications) uses the magic-as-tech paradigm to a T, but even it had some interesting permutations, such as runes-as-occult-circuitry and magical (cyber) implants.  I could care less about the rest of the material, but those bits I liked.  Problem is, it's pretty much just another science-fantasy setting without the magical mystery tour.  Magic = technology.  Fireballs = blasters.

So I'd like to read more about how you see the fundamental assumptions of magic working from the practicioner's viewpoint.

Best,

Blake

(edited for anal perfectionistic reasons wholly unrelated to my mother)

Well, alot has to do with the permanence of magic and its cost to the mage.  Can a mage using telekinetic like powers enchant a plow to plow the fields by itself, if so and if this effect is permanent (or needs only periodic rechargeing) than you'd have a social effect similiar to the displacement of farm labor by powered farm machinery.  You'd have a shift away from small farm plots farmed by individuals (U.S. Frontier model), or large farm plots farmed in small strips by a collection of individuals (feudal serfdom model), or large farm plots farmed by pressed labor (Roman, U.S. slave plantation model) and towards large farms worked by a minimum of labor and a maximum of enchanted equipment.

Mages would largely be 1 man factories (or small groups for larger projects) probably specializing in specific types of magical equipment.  Just like the rise of corporations during the industrial revolution, but a lot more environmentally friendly.


On the other hand if enchantment of this type doesn't exist, or the mage must actively be present to control and animate the devices than rather than each man occupying the position of a fantasy Robber Baron, they'd occupy more of the position of a professional, i.e. engineer, consultant, technician, etc.  In this role the mage would have to be hired to use his magic to perform a certain task, and would need to be present and active to do it.  How much power and prestige this gives to the mage class is dependent on your rough HP analysis above.  If a mage can use magic to do the job (or make the job easier) such that he replaces 50 men, than his "wages" will be worth somewhere in the vicinity of 50 men.

If mages are specialized to the point where the guy who animates plows, or levitates heavy weights, etc, can do little else, than mages themselves may be little more than very valuable serfs or villiens...just as the manor blacksmith was valuable.  If on the other hand the mage who can do the work of 50 men can also sling fire and fight like 50 men, then those mages would have the ability to garner some social status of their own.  Few local feudal noblemen had access to 50 armed men, so one mage with the capability of defeating 50, could pretty much rape and pillage most lower echelon nobles.  A group of such mages backed by hired mercenaries could take on a kingdom.  That doesn't necessarily mean that mages who are specialized wouldn't themselves be enslaved by those with more aggressive powers.

So really you can support just about any model of society you want if you detail the magic right.  Or instead, detail the magic and see what manner of societies make sense.

But there really isn't enough data from your posts to extrapolate from.

Didn't Uncle Bear or somebody like that have a series of essays on this very subject? I searched, but I couldn't get anything to pop up.

Mike

I generally agree that if you structure magic so that is easily available and reliable, you get a pseudo-technical society rather than anything resembling fantasy.  There is a book by Melissa Scott called "Five Twelfths Of Heaven", which uses a tarot-like image as a mnemonic for psychic-powered FTL travel.  Nice idea, but nothing resembling fantasy.

Would magical ability be inheritable?  If I had a powerful mage for a father or mother, would I be more prone to having a disposition for it myself?  If the answer is no, then one of the most subtle but important changes to society would be the passage of property and power from father to eldest son- it would go from master to apprentice- and the daughters of the great wizards would only have temporary value in marriage rather than cementing alliances for generations.  On the other hand, talented apprentices would be worth their weight in gold but also dangerous rivals, and I can imagine certain more tyrannical mages going around killing off any children who showed particular promise.

The tradition of mage guilds or schools, particularly in the Asian tradition of the dojo would make tremendous sense to me, as those who wished to learn magic would gather around a teacher, and be bound to that teacher by tradition, oaths, or even geases.  

Magic is also an excellent way of "balancing" the power between the genders, if women are as likely be proficient and well-trained as men.  If the less technologically advanced paganish cultures are as capable of lethal magic and "high ceremonial magic" with their shamanism, then Empires in general and the "medieval flavor" as opposed to Europe pre- Roman conquest would make sense for the majority of the world.

I'd question the lack of technology.  In the early days, especially in the Middle East, magic and science were very much one via astrology, alchemy, medicine, etc.  It could however be a world with bloody vicious wars between "shamanic" and "high ceremonial/hermetic" magic with the former being more nature-focussed, the latter more technology-focussed.  Its an old fantasy stand by, but I think done right, it has some creative kicks left to offer.

First of all, thanks to all of you who have responded to this post so far.  It's been very useful to me.  If and when this gets off the ground, I'll thank you all again in the final product.

To respond to various comments in order:

Writing the setting as science fiction is difficult, because my grasp of medieval society is only skin deep, shaped mostly by pop culture, with only enough insight from more authentic sources to tell me I'm mostly ignorant.  I am studying more, but I was hoping others might already have done so and have suggestions.

Fundamental assumptions of magic...  hmm.
Looking at it as a profession, Magery requires two things: ability to harness magical energy, and the ability to apply that energy.  Harnessing is initially based solely on talent, but experience tends to bring people to rough equivalency until it only matters if you are pushing for true excellence.  Applying that energy requires spell knowledge.  A spell is like a recipe that tells you the ritual, the gestures and words and ingredients which will shape and direct the energy to a specific goal.
Proficiency in the energy gathering is an art, and difficult to teach.  It must be learned by each mage individually over time as the nuances of it are explored.  Conversely, each spell recipe is a modular skill.  Once the ritual is known, there is no fine-tuning for it, only the amount of energy you can dump into it.  Spell formulae are very valuable.  A reliable method for developing new formulae does not exist in the setting as envisioned, but would be sought after like the philosopher's stone.
A beginning mage can harness less energy magically than a single person's strength.  A competent mage with ten years of apprenticeship under his belt is probably the equal of about a dozen men.  A twenty-year mage is probably the equal of twenty-five men.  An old master probably matches fifty men.  A mystical prodigy who was trained from birth to middle-age to the exclusion of much else might match 100 men.
Harnessing such energy puts a strain on the body, so physical condition is also a factor.  An old master will have greater power in shorter gasps than a younger mage.

I like the idea of a support industry growing up around the need for ingredients.  Simple ingredients like common herbs can be gathered by unskilled laborers, but items which need skilled labor to produce, like detailed representations, illuminated scrolls, cured animal organs, etc.  If true names or background details like ancestral knowledge are needed, then a sort of private investigator can fill that niche.  If hair or toenails of the target are required, a black market in body-product theft will spring up.

I don't see long-term enchantment being appropriate, or even long-term storing of mystical energy charging in an object.  A plough charged for an hour by a ten-man mage who knew the 'make object go now' spell would plow for roughly ten man-hours, so mages could substitute themselves for relatively large blocks of men as a sort of skilled laborer.  The question becomes, don't they have anything better/more enjoyable/more profitable to do with their time?

An important difference between technology and magic(IMHO), is the human factor involved.

Okay, general comments and speculation are still very welcome, but I have some specific questions I'd like to address to the forum for feedback.  Commentary need not be complete or conclusive, just throw stuff out there.

1. What are the consequences of magical practices originating out of a medievalist priesthood(who are the bulk of the literate people and have most of the old books).  Presume that the discovery of working magic occurs roughly simultaneously in a small number(say, less than a dozen) locations, and that the practitioners have access to a broad variety of spell recipes to begin with, including labor-assisting, combat-worthy and information gathering.  

2. What are the consequences of the very wealthy and powerful being able to return from the dead until old age finally claims them?  If assassination is not a viable application unless applied until pauperism sets in, what changes occur in response.

Much obliged.

angelpin-man,

Regarding resurrection, does one return oneself from the dead, or does someone living have to do the returning? That's going to make all the difference in the world. Either way, this issue is startlingly distinct from all the other issues you've mentioned. It would be interesting to me to conduct this thought-experiment only regarding this variable, such that a mage had no special abilities/spells beyond the resurrection factor (of whichever type).

Also, I think you should consider not only one's ability to produce work, but one's ability to harness the work of others. That has been a key issue in all of human social activity, and it applies here in full because you are considering magic in a strictly technological sense (wait! don't flip, see below). In other words, it is not just a matter of Ebeneezer being equivalent to ten men - it is his ability to force or to negotiate the efforts of twenty guys who are each equivalent to five.

Finally, the phrase "the human factor" does literally nothing for me in terms of defining magic vs. technology. A few folks at the Forge (by no means everyone) and I agree that the difference lies in metaphysical meaning, at what might be called the "story" level, and not at all elsewhere. Since that element is not part of your presentation, and your description relies strictly on the production and storage of usable energy, I remain convinced that you are discussing technology, by whatever name.

One phrase in your post concerned me: "if and when." Although it's been an interesting intellectual exercise, I am compelled to say that if you're not planning on providing a usable, readable game text at least informally, very soon, then we should finish up the immediate questions and then close the thread. This forum really is for "real game design," not for musings.

Best,
Ron

Here are a few suggestions:

Since you haven't addressed Blake's all-important point, I'm going to have to take you literally when you say the magic is "D&D style." That is, I'm assuming the whole gamut of D&D magic rules and spells, except where they contradict one of your stated assumptions.

You say, "Scientific progress is retarded due to a focus by the learned on magical development." But if anyone can learn magic given the correct training (that is, if the only constraint on successful magic is whether the casting is executed correctly), then magical development IS scientific progress. To paraphrase Clarke, any sufficiently reproducible magic is indistinguishable from technology.

Regarding magic-users as having more or less the same effects in warfare as cannons is a mistake, I believe, except perhaps where warships are concerned. In 18th century warfare, for example, infantry had to mass together in order to sustain a sufficient collective rate of fire not to be overrun, even though this made them more vulnerable to artillery. With magic but no firearms, you'd see instead the tactic adopted by dungeon-delving parties -- "spread out!" -- applied at the battlefield level. (Of course, if one side had no mages, and the other side's forces could remain concentrated, spreading out would be a big disadvantage; but having no mages would be a big disadvantage in any case.)

Cannons have a slow rate of fire but can keep firing all day; mages can fire very rapidly but run out of shots very quickly. The tactics for opposing them (besides just trying to nullify them with your own mages) would be to force them to either expend their spells at range and then have to withdraw, or wait until the enemy forces are close and concentrated, with all the personal risk to the mage that entails. Mages don't have anywhere near the kind of range that cannons do, so their ability to decimate the ranks with fireballs might be overrated. Mages posed dramatically on nearby hilltops calling lightning down upon the enemy formations might be a staple of fantasy literature, but D&D mages would have to be a few yards behind the infantry lines to be effective. One Agincourt experience and you'd see a sudden popularity of pacificism among mid-level mages. And even a cursory glance at the D&D spell lists reveals that mages are, on the whole, better suited to be spies than warriors.

Nonetheless, some seige engines consist of a stone or metal-plate telephone booth with a mage inside on a wheeled platform. And lots of decoys of the same. And speaking of decoys, whole regiments of unskilled infantry might exist only for the purpose of mimicking mages to camoflage the real mages intermixed in their ranks.

Surreptitious use of mages in warfare and peacetime espionage would be universally condemned and universally practiced. Social customs of all types would be affected. No unarmed delegation would be permitted to approach the city gates under a flag of truce, lest they prove to include a mage who could blow the gates open.

Invisibility threatens to make even such elementary precautions futile. You might see an earlier invention of barbed wire, as an outgrowth of wire fences designed to prevent anyone from approaching a secure area invisibly. (In normal situations, like protecting a palace, string would suffice, but on the battlefield that would be routinely burned by the enemy whenever possible, whether or not invisible attack was intended.)

The social effects of widespread use of invisibility, wishes, illusions, and other spells whose effects are not visibly linked to their sources would be very interesting. Basically, the tendency would be for people to blame every misfortune on malign magic. (This partly depends on whether the world includes gods who are also known to perform random acts of malign magic.) Every leader whose rule depended in some degree on popular appeal (that is, every leader except the most hard-core dark lords) would rule not so much by virtue of being able to perform powerful magic, as by promising to protect people from it. Therefore, you might see both of the obvious scenarios simultaneously -- that is, magic users being both the most powerful, and the most persecuted. Those in power would go to great lengths to ascribe their own powers (and those of their allies) to divine enlightenment, and those of others to witchraft or deviltry.

Security efforts would very likely include measures to prevent access to material components. Searches at city gates could be common, though limited in effectiveness. (Remember, the rulers must appear to be doing something whether it's effective or not. Remind you of anything in the modern world?) Court clothing styles might trend toward the downright Barsoomian (at least where climate permits).

This kind of speculation is pretty easy but I'm not sure if it's what you're looking for. Should I continue?

- Walt

Replies to Laurel's post:

Didn't mean to ignore you, you posted while I was composing.  I see magical talent as inheritable in-setting, yes, like steady hands or sharp eyes.  It might skip a generation, but the tendencies are genetic on some level.  Dojo/Guild does make a lot of sense.
Equality of gender would probably be enhanced, but slowly.  The male-dominated society would probably insulate women from the knowledge at first.  Until a determined woman ferreted out the secrets.  Or a sorcerer discovered a young girl brimming over with talent.
My vision did not include other cultures in the same world, which is a blindspot of mine, but only an established society suddenly having spellcasting injected into it.  Cultures advanced and strong enough to acquire the secrets could have their own response to it.  Cultures without the advantage would probably be subjected to the horrors of colonialism.
My original view involved the retardation of the mundane technologies, because I think the presence of magi would tend to retard, or actively suppress such development.  Alternately, though, people could be inspired to develop such to compete with the magi.

Replies to Ron's post:

Someone else must return you from the dead.
Coercive mage-based feudalism is a good idea, I think it was used in the Man of his Word series, which I'll have to look up again.
That 'human factor' sentence was supposed to have more after it, dagnabit!  That'll teach me to proof my posts more thoroughly.

Technology can be defined very broadly, to the point where language and philosophy are tools, and I have that viewpoint to an extent.  My intended point was that a tractor, which does the work of many men, requires no human condieration apart from staying on good terms with your mechanic.  If magical ploughs were prevalent(which I do not intend them to be), then it would be similar, yes.  Replace the tractor with a person, who has emotional, political and opinionated motivations, and the relationship is changed.  Particularly since dismissing or disposing of the tractor may be complicated.  That was my point.  Less of a socio-economic impact than a personal one.

As to your last post, I have a workable character-creation/task-resolution system being playtested, but it's nothing new or innovative.  My concern now is a setting that is well-conceived and interesting and compelling.  Gathering inspiration here has been one of my vehicles for addressing that.  The idea work will take a while, probably not within the realm of 'very soon.'

I appreciate your concern for the integrity of this forum's purpose, so I invite anyone who wants to contribute further input to email me (at angelfromanotherpin@hotmail.com) rather than extend an inappropriate thread.

Thanks, y'all,
Jules

Walt, your brand of speculation is exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for.  Give me everything you've got.

Jules.

Once Upon A Time, my players discovered that with a little cunning and small expense, they could manufacture laser sights for their crossbows.  The method was simple - a cut ruby at the end of a cylinder, which interior has been treated with Continual Light.  This is fact better than laser sights in the real world, because the batteries never run down.

I'm not much enamoured of this concept myself; I fear an "iron age shadowrun".