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Since Clinton suggested answering this question in another thread, I'm, starting one. Why do gamers often seem to have such low self-confience, particularly potential RPG publishers?

I know that in my case I consider myself amazed every day an anrgy mob doesn;t break down my door, take me out to the nearest lamppost, and hang me with piano wire (extra painful). Gamers are told so often they're geeks and freaks that they naturally tend to come to believe it.

Unfortunately ALL of my pastimes are, in one form or another, the pastimes of geeks. Whether it's designing games or watching anime, I do stuff that normal red-blooded American guys simply don't do. I enjoy then, but it makes me question why I'm allowed to live in this country.

And don;t get me started on the folks who cry Satan whenever the word RPG comes up.

Maybe marginalised populations tend towards marginalized hobbies?  I can't really say with any authority why many of the people attracted to the hobby seem to fit that stereotype.  In fact I'm not sure that they do; it could be that they just stick out more.

As for myself, I'm attracted to the hobby because it gives me a chance to be the romantic hero for a few hours every week, but still go home and live a quiet, normal life. I suspect that my other hobbies aren't the sort of anti-guy things normally associated with gamers though.  Shooting, brewing, consuming the brewed goods and working on the house seem like fairly red meat type activities.  Of course, my attempt to train a pack of hunting cats might fall into the geek category.

Michael,

This is your personal issue, not a general one. I suggest that it's not a valid generalization, and also that it's not much of a topic for discussion here.

Unless anyone pleads otherwise (and convincingly), this thread will be closed.

Best,
Ron

There's an *entirely* legitimate topic (or set of topics) here, connected with confidence and self-publishing. It would be interesting to hear about how positive/negative other people feel at different stages of projects, and what they do about it. After all, the publishing process is not just about the mechanics of printing or websites and so on; it's about the person(s) doing it too. Maybe it's better placed in one of the other forums, though I think not.

(EDIT: though I agree with Ron that Michael's post did a poor job of introducing these.)

I feel confidence plays a large role in self-publishing and could lead to a relevent discussion here.  If Ron still feels it's beyond the scope of this forum, I will merrily delete this post.  :)

Anyway, I find the most common effect of low confidence to be the publishing equivalent of stage fright.  Many talented game designers never dare to self-publish because they don't think they're good enough or they doubt their abilities to "run a successful business."

I'll be honest, I used to lack self confidence.  Perhaps that's one of the contributing factors to my "late start" in the industry.  You see, I used to think of myself as a sub-par designer who could very well embarrass myself if I published a game.

I eventually came to the realization that I should design games that I like and if others like them, then so much the better.  And if not, oh well.  Maybe this sounds a bit apathetic, but it got me over my stage fright in a hurry.  Once I started ignoring the pressure I put on myself to release a game that everyone else will love, I was able to concentrate on pleasing myself, thus building up my level of confidence.  

In my opinion, this has allowed me to grow as a designer in ways that I probably wouldn't have grown otherwise, because I was so worried about whether or not people would like my work.

Self confidence can make all the difference in the world.  I can't help but wonder if someone out there with low self confidence has created the next Sorcerer or Nobilis but just has it scribbled down in a ragged old notebook, never to see the light of day.

I really wonder.

Hi Cynthia,

I don't wonder about that at all. In my experience, many hundreds of dog-eared notebooks full of RPG designs are out there, and a certain fraction of them are brilliant.

However, I think most of that brilliance is contained in bits & pieces, rather than in terms of "a game." That would be the Heartbreaker thing, in general rather than just for fantasy - without the self-confidence that people are speaking of, the mental shift required to go from ["This would be so cool if ..."] to ["This game, my game, for better or worse"] isn't possible.

I have a couple of things to say about self-confidence, self-esteem, rah rah. When these terms were first proposed in the context of elementary education, they were identified as behaviors or attitudes that arose from successful performance. In other words, success comes first, and self-esteem is the effect.

In the intervening decades, a rather horrible flip-flop interpretation of these concepts has developed - that self-esteem is some kind of "gas" or "thing" that some people have and some don't, and that having it makes one more easily capable of performing well. Hence: I can't do that, because I have low self-esteem. Hence: we need to pump up all these children's self-esteem levels, so that their performance will increase.

The net effect is to put the less-confident person into a bind: "Have more self-esteem," they hear, and they say, "But I can't, because I have low self-esteem."

RPG design or play, like any creative act, requires commitment to performance. Now, by commitment, I am not discussing an intangible, but actual effort and application. It might suck the first time, or the twentieth time, but as long as it sucks less and has become better in an identifiable and interesting way, that's fine. That's performance.

From that comes confidence, self-esteem, what-have-you. It doesn't come from anywhere else; one doesn't "get some confidence" in some bizarre phone-booth way and then stride forth to do amazing things.

In terms of RPG design, the question is how to get all those nifty bits and pieces in one's notebook into things called actual, playable, game texts. One doesn't need "confidence" to start doing that. The work simply must begin.

Now, I did mean it about needing that confidence in order to succeed eventually. Over time, as performance occurs and results start to show up, and as one recognizes one's own vision ("this is my fantasy game," as opposed to "doing a fantasy game" - Riddle of Steel as opposed to Pelicar), that confidence, etc, shows up. A positive feedback begins between the work and its results on one's confidence - and when that flywheel begins to spin, a great game can emerge.

That's why I'm not interested hearing pissing and moaning about "Oh, my confidence is so low." I'm interested in seeing the work happen.

Throughout this post, please note that I am speaking less as Moderator and more as Just Me. Therefore such posts as Michael's, the one opening this thread, are not "banned" - but I assure you that my response to them will be plenty pointed.

Best,
Ron

P.S. Cynthia, what's this about "deleting posts?" I have never ordered anyone to delete a post and never will.

I tend to agree with most of what you said.  I know for me, gaining self confidence did come from the act of just going out and doing it (i.e., making games available for others to read/use).  And it certainly wasn't an overnight thing.  It took quite a few years.

Also, I want to apologize for not clarifying my bit about deleting my thread.  I wasn't implying that you'd require it or anything.  I was basically offering to do so if the thread was closed.

I recall that on many occassions I wanted to beat my head into the wall with The Riddle of Steel, but that was more nervousness about losing my (and several other peoples') money...not whether or not the game was good. Call it vision or pride or Drive or whatever, but I knew that TROS kicked ass... and I (thought that I) knew why.

I don't think I suffer--even a little--from the problem that Michael is talking about, but I do see it around me. At the risk of sounding like a total elistist ass...get over it. If you can't sell your product, game, whatever, to yourself, then you can't sell it to anyone else, either. If you can't sell yourself to yourself, then no one else will buy you (figuratively, I mean). The secret of the universe, I once heard, was to convince yourself that you're better than everyone else. I don't actually believe that, but there is something to be said about "unyielding self confidence." How much of TROS's success is the game, and how much of it is my refusal to walk when I could fly? I'm stubborn as hell when I set my eye on something...I know I can get it, but how?

I think, as a quicker solution than what CCM was getting at (with which, by the way, I agree more or less completely) is to write down and evalutate every perceived "weakness" in your game, design, idea, whatever. Then look deeply into it, find a solution, and fix it. If you can't find a solution then you might be looking at something that isn't all that great...not every project is genius, and not every kid is all that bright--no matter what his parents think. On the other hand, if you can solve those difficult problems (or realize that they aren't problems at all), then maybe you have something to be proud of...something to stand behind and growl at the world to say "come and get my now you sons of..."

Humility has its place, but self-depriciation isn't the same thing. Anyway, jut my 2c.

Jake