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I started with a Spell I called "Combat Sense", which is largely just ported from Shadowrun but generally reflects the reacting faster because they can see things before they happen ability of the jedi.

Rather powerful actually :)

Then I started thinking about other things Jedi use their force powers for...
Force Push came immediately to mind. I ran into a serious problem, a CTN of 8. And all it does is knock somebody over...

With a CTN 9 spell I can level a city, does anybody else see the problem here?

One big factor in that is the fact that Force push has to be able to affect animals while Plasma Ball (I'd rather not get into it) only affects inanimate objects (air)...

As far as things go there are things I like about the magic system, casting time based on CTN. I even don't really have a SERIOUS problem with the aging effects because if you're careful you can mostly avoid them.
Of course, the istant aging (if you explain it through time distortion, which is what I've heard) you would die after simply aging one month (No water or air for your body's processes to sustain themselves that long)...

Here's the list of Jedi-power spells I've some up with so far:
Personal Combat Sense
Spell of One
CTN=5 (casting time: 5 seconds)
T)0 R)2 V)2 D)0 L)1
Vagary(s): Vision 1
Effect(s): Divination 1
Instantaneous (only useful when maintained)
   As long as Personal Combat Sense is maintained the sorcerer can see into the immediate future, reacting earlier to events than normally possible. This awareness grants 5 extra dice (plus casting successes) to any defensive maneuver in melee combat and makes it possible to intercept incoming projectiles with a melee weapon using the parry maneuver, but does not grant the normal bonus dice to such an action. This spell also allows the caster to see if an opponent will be attacking or defending ahead of time and react accordingly (when casting a die for initiative, you can change your mind after seeing your opponent's die cast).

Force Push
Spell of One
CTN=8 (casting time: 8 seconds)
T)3 R)2 V)2 D)0 L)1
Vagary(s): Movement (1)
Effect(s): Speed (1)
Instantaneous
   Force push throws any single target (up to 200 lbs.) back 3 yards and forces a knockdown check against a target number of 8, if they achieve more successes than the caster, they remain standing.

Force Jump
Spell of One
CTN=3 (casting time: 3 seconds)
T)0 R)0 V)2 D)0 L)1
Vagary(s): Movement (1)
Effect(s): Speed (1)
Instantaneous
   Force Jump increases the distance the caster may Jump or Leap by 3 yards (plus casting successes) and prevents any falling damage.

Telekinesis
Spell of One
CTN=5 (casting time: 5 seconds)
T)1 R)2 V)1 D)0 L)1
Vagary(s): Movement (1)
Effect(s): Speed (1), Maneuverability (1)
    Telekinesis can call an inanimate object within Line of Sight (LOS) and weighing up to 20 lbs. into the caster's hand, or (more importantly) throw any such object at an opponent within LOS at up to 10 yards per second (it takes 10 seconds to reach full speed) dealing 5 (plus casting successes) blunt or piercing damage (depending on the object) which is resisted as normal for a thrown weapon.

-Psychopompous

IMO your problem is that you're trying to map force powers with the tRoS magic system. It's a good system for fantasy games for city-shattering magic, but it doesn't realloy work (again IMO) for force powers.

Make something new up. It doesn't have to use tRoS magic. Keep the three level vagaries of you like, but have a different one for each force power. Then you have a new derived stat like SP that is instead FP (force points). So you can buy force push at level 1, 2 or 3 or you don't have it at all. Maybe at level 1 it can affect only small object of up to 20 kilos, and you can spend force points to push harder. Force points come back at a point an hour like SP, or maybe a point every 10 minutes, or whatever. Rank 2 force push can affect 100kg (i.e a person). Rank three is 500kg (a squad) or whatever.

I think this would be a far better approach then trying to do it all within the tRoS magic system. 8 seconds to activate force push? Oh please.

Quote from: BrianLIMO your problem is that you're trying to map force powers with the tRoS magic system. It's a good system for fantasy games for city-shattering magic, but it doesn't realloy work (again IMO) for force powers.

Uh, okay. I like they idea of subtle, manipulative sorcerers and all that. The ideas behind tRoS's magic system I mainly agree with, but the implementation IMHO has some problems... The Comparison between your ability to knock somebody over versus leveling a city... 1 CTN, and both spells are spells of one (the city-leveler is movement, duh!) meaning one more second to cast...

Quote from: BrianL
Make something new up. It doesn't have to use tRoS magic. Keep the three level vagaries of you like, but have a different one for each force power. Then you have a new derived stat like SP that is instead FP (force points). So you can buy force push at level 1, 2 or 3 or you don't have it at all. Maybe at level 1 it can affect only small object of up to 20 kilos, and you can spend force points to push harder. Force points come back at a point an hour like SP, or maybe a point every 10 minutes, or whatever. Rank 2 force push can affect 100kg (i.e a person). Rank three is 500kg (a squad) or whatever.

I've actually been working on a variant of tRoS's magic for a Star Wars setting, but that's not the point.

Quote from: BrianL
I think this would be a far better approach then trying to do it all within the tRoS magic system. 8 seconds to activate force push? Oh please.

That being part of the problem, simple, weak spells shouldn't be so hard...

-Psychopompous

Quote from: PsychopompousThat being part of the problem, simple, weak spells shouldn't be so hard...
-Psychopompous

Fari enough. Of course, the same spell can be done a lot of different ways, depending on your point of view.

Your force push, for example. You use T3 and V2 so it can affect a human (that's 5 of your 8). I would drop V to 1 and T to 1. This makes it T1,R2,V1,D0,L1 for a CTN of 5. It still works the same way, except that I'm accelerating the air in front of the target and using THAT to push him back instead of pushing the actual target. It could probably be refined even more, that's just off the top of my head.

Brian.

Quote from: BrianL

Quote from: PsychopompousThat being part of the problem, simple, weak spells shouldn't be so hard...
-Psychopompous

Fari enough. Of course, the same spell can be done a lot of different ways, depending on your point of view.

Your force push, for example. You use T3 and V2 so it can affect a human (that's 5 of your 8). I would drop V to 1 and T to 1. This makes it T1,R2,V1,D0,L1 for a CTN of 5. It still works the same way, except that I'm accelerating the air in front of the target and using THAT to push him back instead of pushing the actual target. It could probably be refined even more, that's just off the top of my head.

Brian.

You have a point. I actually thought about doing that, but it seems a little bit wrong to me... Especially knocking a guy over with air moving a 10 yards/second (well, 1 initially... you have to wait for the air to accelerate).

That approach would almost certainly require a higher level of mastery over the Vagary. Meaning you'd get a CTN of 6, not 5... Still better than 8, but still a problem :)

IMHO the CTN should be more directly related to the level of mastery reqired for the Vagaries used...

-Psychopompous

On the other hand, Force Jump and Telekinesis work very well, and I would use them as is in my own game (starting next Thursday!). Combat Sense I'd probably tweak a bit though... Doesn't seem quite right to me.

As for Force Push.. Hm.

Spell of One
CTN = 5
T)1 R)2 V)1 D)0 L)1
Vagary(s): Movement (1)
Effect(s): Speed (1)
Instantaneous

How can you do it this way? Focus the spell on something the target is wearing, such as a plate of armor, or their shirt.. anything less than 20 lbs. Move THAT object a few feet in the first second.. It's moving, so it's going to force the person back, period... they will move. As for whether or not they fall, that's when you'd throw in the knockdown check. Either way, they're staggering back, and are no longer right in your face. Maybe 5 seconds is a bit long, but hell... toss in a quick chant and a gesture, and that'll lower the CTN a point or two, and if it's formalized... 1-3 seconds, tops.

Bada-bing.

Pychopompous said:

QuoteOf course, the istant aging (if you explain it through time distortion, which is what I've heard) you would die after simply aging one month (No water or air for your body's processes to sustain themselves that long)...

I have a different take on it. In science there's a theory that states that ageing is due to the 'replicative fading' of our DNA as it constintly duplicates itself. Copy of a copy and all that; where slight discrepencies sneak into the sequence over time cause the 'new' body to not be as well structured as 'previous versions' in the past. So what I see happening is when the sorcerer casts and 'takes ageing', the energy overdraw actually gives the mage a sortof 'molecular burn' singeing the DNA causeing a months amount of kinks and flaws or more depending on how desperate or stupid or unlucky the sorcerer was. Then ouver the span of a few days or weeks, the 'ageing or signs of' take place as the newly burned DNA with all the new kinks begins replicating itself. A sort of catch up period between the body and time.

Well, anyway, thats my take on it. Of course with this way though, you don't get the cool knarled beard as a consolation for botching a really difficult spell.

Oh it isn't nearly so complicated.  You see, altering the flow of reality (making what is not into what is) simply puts a strain on your body that no person could possibly be accustomed to, and thus most of the "aging" is simply strain, similar to what comes from smoking or using other drugs (they don't accelerate time, they really just shorten your lifespan).  Of course, your hair grows when you use magic, but then you see freaky things when you use ecstacy (not that I know from personal experience, but it IS a hallucinigenic drug, right?).  That's how I see it.

That was complicated? eh, at any rate I find my explanation more satisfying than the others I've heard. plus it jives with the 'spirit' of the system.

On another note, for those trying to do the whole Jedi thing with the magic system, it may mesh better if you calculate casting times using only the vagery levels. might help.