The Forge Archives

Hey all,

I'm new to these boards and new to the indy-rpg world in general.  However, I somehow managed to get under contract to write a GM-less mystery campaign for Rogue Publishing, so I'm basically diving in head first.  Still, though some of the actual theory of running a GM-less mystery is still up in the air (though I'm working on it), this post is not about that project.

What it is about... is this:

Recently I was struck by an interesting thought; why hasn't anyone written any RPG material specifically for the PBeM format?  That's an untapped market if there ever was one.  There are probably THOUSANDS of PBeM games out there, most with a very limited lifespan, but the requirements of such a roleplaying environment are surely different enough to warrent taking them into consideration during the theory/design stage.  If that many people are playing PBeMs, shouldn't some designers start creating games specifically for them?

As with LARPs, PBeMs have certain limitations and advantages that make them -- not better or worse -- but different than traditional face-to-face games.

1. the plot of a PBeM generally moves much slower; a good PBeM often has to last months or years in order to really achieve a great deal

2. players have time to consider their actions, making things less spontaneous; they can take time to write gorgeous prose, check their facts, compare attributes before attacking, or anything of that nature

3. rolling dice over email sucks

4. archiving allows for a perfect record of everything that happens in the game (something that could be taken advantage of in instances of time travel, flashbacks, describing memories, returning to well-known places, etc.)

5. PBeMs take place in a text-based format, which is very different from the spoken word; prose, poetry, famous quotes or song lyrics, anything text-based could be included as part of a character's action, whether it's fluff or additional clarification

6. considering character more deeply, in a PBeM game, there are fewer reasons to restrict a player to a single character; seeing as how there's no real risk of confusion, except as far as which characters are played by whom, and that could be easily rectified

7. PBeMs are really good at suspending disbelief; most face-to-face games couldn't work with players taking on the roles of abstract concepts with no physical form (i.e. "I'm Materialism, you're Idealism, and we're going to fight!"); in a PBeM this could actually work (not that I'm suggesting it).

8. overall, PBeMs offer designers a great way to avoid some of the traditional restrictions of RPGs, while, at the same time, setting up some new restrictions that you'll have to take into account

In any case, I've already started working on a draft of a game based on concepts from Nietschian philosophy, but I wanted to know what thoughts other people had on this sort of thing.  Have there been games written for the PBeM format that I just don't know about?  What would be some good guidelines for writing a PBeM-specific roleplaying game?  Am I the only one who thinks writing for PBeMs would be an amazing opportunity for imaginative designers and indy RPG companies?  After all, a PBeM-specific game would almost have to be marketed as a PDF, and none of the Big Guys would touch it :)

Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there.

Later.
Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,

Welcome to the Forge! And thanks for starting with such a fascinating issue. Much to my surprise, both LARPs and free-form ("interactive storytelling") have been worked over in this forum with, in my opinion, tremendous results. Let's see if the same can be done with PBeM.

Of course, I am personally pig-ignorant about the whole thing so can only stand here and go, "Hmmm, uh-uh, really," and stuff like that. Lots of people here have lots more experience, though - Raven's recent awesome D&D post in Actual Play being a good example.

I do have one tiny question - given the common use of HTML format in eMail these days, do people use images much in their missives? If so, a kind of almost-comics level of words/pictures might be possible, which would add one more item to your list.

Best,
Ron

Hi Jonathan,

As far as I know there is no "standard" PBEM game format---some are freeform, others chat based and some rely on traditional die rolling by the GM in between emails.  That poses a lot of problems when designing an adventure since adventures usually rely on a set rules system to refer to during complications.  For instance, you can't design an adventure for AD&D 3E using homebrew rules---well, you can, but you won't be targetting 3E players for the most part.

I hate to keep using 3E as a guide but just think of running a typical 3E adventure via email---turn based combat would take forever, player input would be limited and the GM would be required to post _at least_ daily to answer questions (any secret doors?  I'll use hear noise, I'll order a flask of ale, etc.).

Having tried and failed with several different methods to keep a PBEM running, I would say that rather than a PBEM adventure, you might try to find a workable PBEM mechanic instead.  Specifically, some generic guidelines that could take an existing stat-based game system and makes it workable via 2-3 emails per week.  What I'm saying is that I would like to see a workable way to take an existing game system (Shadowrun, UA, Little Fears and yes dammit, Dreamwalker) and make it playable via email---something that doesn't take a month to examine a few rooms or fight a bad guy.  

For the player this would mean a system that allows him to create a character in an existing system he was comfortable and familiar with to see his character's strengths and weaknesses/limitations.  For a GM these new rules would enable him to run a typical session with low handling time.  

The only practical way I can see this being done is by incorporating a more freeform system that allows the players and GM to narrate actions, etc.   I know it's being done but I still would like to see written and concise rules on how to do it---how much can the player narrate?  What can the GM veto?  What order do posts go in? How is combat handled? etc.  

I personally think that a workable PBEM mechanic would be more valuable than a generic adventure would be, at least not without some sort of universal rules system to make it run, but that's just my opinion.  

Hope this all makes some sense and good luck.

Pete

Hey Jonathan, glad to see you here.  As you know I'm eagerly awaiting the results of his GM-less mystery efforts as I hope to shanghai you into also writing up an adaptation along those lines for Universalis (about which we've had a brief discussion in that forum).

For those who haven't been over to the Universalis site recently, Jonathan's contributed the second entry to our Art Contest.

Regarding a GM-less mystery, Electronic Arts (I think) did an interactive mystery game similar in premise but using everything from email to instant messaging to faxes. I think it was called Majestic. That might be a possible source for research.

As to PBEM formats, I've never seen a standard one. I've seen GMs impose some but these are mostly things related to the format of the email (tense, OOC comments, etc.). I would say that it's usually the stream-lined rpgs which make the best PBEM mechanics but I've been in two running the Hero system with no problems.

First, Pete, I think that if you look closely, Johnathan is tryng to make a system. But I think that he's going for something completely new rather than an adaptation of some other game system. And I think that he's right to do so. I completely understand his motive. Having played a it of PBEM, I understand his problems and I can see exactly why he'd want something that was specifically designed for the challenges and advantages of PBEM play.

That all said, I think that there are some existing ideas that can help you out, Johnathan.

Quote from: Jonathan Walton1. the plot of a PBeM generally moves much slower; a good PBeM often has to last months or years in order to really achieve a great deal

I think this is a reflection of the system and style of play that's engendered. As Pete correctly points out, playing 3E straight would be a nightmare. That's why nobody does this. In fact, there are several systems out there that address the speed issue through a variety of methods. The one that strikes me right off the bat is De Profundiis. In that game, IIRC, play is comprised of players writing letters to each other in-character. This, of course, is very immersive in that the other players are reading the emails very much as though they were letters. And the format lends itself to players being able to narrate more than one would expect in most RPGs. A single post can cover the character's actions for an entire week. Which seems just right for a letter. I'd check out De Profundiis for sure.

The point is that your format or structure can lend itself to including more in a single dose of narration than one would normally see from table-top play. The De Profundiis idea does limit play to characters who aren't all together, however. So you'll probably want to try some different ideas. For example, you could perhaps have the log of the game be written as a journal, with the players alternating making entries. This would require sharing of PCs (see SOAP for an exmple of a game that does this). As such it would also be non-traditional. In any case, if one were to think about it, I think that some structural solutions could be found that would support the style of play that you want to see.

The idea is that to get play to progress more quickly, you have to allow for more player narration per post. Encourage it even. Otherwise, play is doomed to be slow.

Can anyone suggest a "Setting" or starting Situation that would encourage this sort of longer Narration?

Quote2. players have time to consider their actions, making things less spontaneous; they can take time to write gorgeous prose, check their facts, compare attributes before attacking, or anything of that nature

Again, play to the strenght of the medium. Having layers post more per post allows for that time to think to be well used. Don't force them to make any short term tactical decisions. As such you may want to look at what sort of situations support this sort of play. For example, being high up in an organization means that decisions will be more strategic, and would take longer to take effect anyhow. So, perhaps generals, or kings, or CEOs as player roles. That sort of thing. Whatever makes decision making less moment to moment.

Quote3. rolling dice over email sucks

So don't. That may be why Amber is such a favorite for this medium. Not to say that you have to take the Amber mechanics directly, but dice are definitely not necessary. In fact, given the medium, I think there are some really interesting alternatives, and not all Karma based.

Though I will say that, when dice are neccessary, there are some cool online servers that can help. I suggest investigating them. Anyone know some offhand?

Quote4. archiving allows for a perfect record of everything that happens in the game (something that could be taken advantage of in instances of time travel, flashbacks, describing memories, returning to well-known places, etc.)

Yes, this is a huge advantage. Again, make the system somehow able to leverage off the archived material. Such that perhaps people can cut and paste certain things to make their descriptions more quickly, for example. Or some other method to take advantage of this resource. Any ideas people?

Quote5. PBeMs take place in a text-based format, which is very different from the spoken word; prose, poetry, famous quotes or song lyrics, anything text-based could be included as part of a character's action, whether it's fluff or additional clarification

And sounds, and pictures and video (as Ron points out). Yes, any way to get this stuff into play would be a huge advantage. (In the Yahoogroup play that I do, I always post a picture of my character and some of his equipment; this is just one example).

I keep thinking that a good "system" like this would be web based, and have links to such resources as might be appliacble. As well as advive on how to get waht you need, and how to manipulate the data successfully.

Quote6. considering character more deeply, in a PBeM game, there are fewer reasons to restrict a player to a single character; seeing as how there's no real risk of confusion, except as far as which characters are played by whom, and that could be easily rectified

Again, no real reason to have characters wholy owned by a single player, either. Just a question of who controls whom and when. That would be an important part of such a system. Allowing players broader control only goes to empower them in the ways I described above. Yes, this is less Immersive. OTOH, PBEM is pretty non-immersive. So I'm not sure you lose much.

In addition, the more work that the players do with a wide variety of characters, the less the GM is heaped with work. IME, it's often the GM who is the bottleneck point slowing things down because he has too much to do. Alleviate that.

Quote7. PBeMs are really good at suspending disbelief; most face-to-face games couldn't work with players taking on the roles of abstract concepts with no physical form (i.e. "I'm Materialism, you're Idealism, and we're going to fight!"); in a PBeM this could actually work (not that I'm suggesting it).

I agree. Again, look to roles that exploit this. One could play "the will of the country of Cranobia", and again take that off the GM's hands.

QuoteHave there been games written for the PBeM format that I just don't know about?

Check out the use of En Garde online (Max!), and Privateers and Gentlemen. These very external Sim type games seem to work well online for some sorts of play.

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesBut I think that he's going for something completely new rather than an adaptation of some other game system.

Exactly.  People write some games that are specifically designed to be LARPs, but most existing LARPs are commercial adaptations of existing games.  However, since I don't own the rights to any existing commercial game, I'm talking about designing a game where the setting, style, tone, and mechanics were all custom-built for the requirements of a PBeM.

QuoteIn fact, there are several systems out there that address the speed issue through a variety of methods. The one that strikes me right off the bat is De Profundiis. In that game, IIRC, play is comprised of players writing letters to each other in-character. This, of course, is very immersive in that the other players are reading the emails very much as though they were letters.

This is actually an important point in two different areas:

1. The "letter format" of De Profundis makes it incredibly immersive, as you've noted.  You can actually imagine that you're recieving a letter from a fictional persona.  This is a counter to the assumption that all PBeMs are non-immersive.

2. This is a great example of taking advantage of a specific format in game design.  You actually write letters!  If that isn't custom-made for a PBeM or PBM game, I don't know what is.

Quote3. rolling dice over email sucks

So don't.

That's what I was strongly implying :)

And Amber isn't the epitome of diceless gaming anymore.  Now we have Nobilis and mostly-diceless systems like the coin-bidding of Universalis.  And look at De Profundis, which doesn't even consider the possibility that dice might be used!  It's heading in another direction entirely.  I think it's been well-proven that roleplaying doesn't have to rely on polyhedrons.

QuoteAgain, make the system somehow able to leverage off the archived material. Such that perhaps people can cut and paste certain things to make their descriptions more quickly, for example. Or some other method to take advantage of this resource.

I first made use of archives in a Continuum PBeM many months ago.  When the time travelers experienced "Gemini Incidents" where they had conversations with their past or future selves, I just pulled up the previous posts so that the meetings would be exactly the same (remember that scene from "Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure"?).

Still, this is only a minor use.  Real archive-diving could make for really interesting game mechanics, where players could re-write events that had already happened, changing the "history" of the game.  Or they could insert new characters into events that had already taken place, having them do things between the lines of old posts.

QuoteAgain, no real reason to have characters wholy owned by a single player, either... Allowing players broader control only goes to empower them in the ways I described above. Yes, this is less Immersive.

Universalis has certainly proved that group-controlled characters can work, as long as you take turns or agree on who is currently in charge of who.  Still, Universalis only real limitation is that it isn't usually very immersive.  However, resolving the Group-Control vs. Immersion paradox is not restricted to just PBeMs, so why don't we set that issue aside or explore it in its own topic?

QuoteI agree. One could play "the will of the country of Cranobia", and again take that off the GM's hands.

Actually, I was specifically thinking more of challanging the traditional ideology on what constitutes a character.  This wouldn't be taking GM-controlled concepts and controlling them in addition to your PC.  This would be:

"Who are you playing?"

"Oh, I'm The Will of Cranobia.  Currently, I'm increasing the nationalism of my populace for the upcoming war with Zanzibar.  Also, I'm exploring new trade avenues with the jungle-people to the south and working on general public works projects that should be completed in a few years."

Again, an example.  Playing entire nations works for games like Civilization, but I don't think it would necessarily be optimal for a PBeM.  Basically, I'm searching for a new PBeM-based paradigm of what a character can be.

QuoteI keep thinking that a good "system" like this would be web based, and have links to such resources as might be applicable. As well as advive on how to get what you need, and how to manipulate the data successfully.

PDFs can have hyperlinks too.  Still, I totally see what you're saying.  A website would almost be the perfect format.  However, if we were to envision this as something publishable and not something just given away, making it html-based would be a little more difficult.  We could ask people to pay for a zipped package of html files, but that seems almost asking for copyright problems.  

But the final format of such a game doesn't really have much to do with basic design theory, so I don't think I'm ready to nitpick at that before I have a game concept that deserves publication.

Hmm...  Maybe the first thing to do is figure out what materials we have that could be used in a PBeM.  Ron's suggestion about using HTML formatting was a good one, but until I can see the big picture of the tools availiable, it's hard to develop a sense of how this could work.

Let's me start a list in another Reply message...

Back in a minute.
Jonathan

THE TOOLS AT HAND

Email Tools (those included in standard email access)

-- signing posts: claiming that they are notes from imaginary people
-- quoted replies: the use of ">" to denote quoted material not written by the author, which doesn't necessarily have to be material that is actually quoted
-- formatted text: though some people find it annoying, it's definitely an option
-- HTML: many people hate it, but HTML formatting can include pictures, tables, sound, etc.  Can most mail programs run Flash or Javascript fuctions?  I have to admit my ignorance on that point, though I would imagine they're not quite there yet.
-- hyperlinks: if someone can find/put stuff on the web, you can include links so people have a direct connection to it (sidenote: maybe a game that involves speculating stories based on real news articles?)
-- attachments: a standard email method of sending non-text stuff, though not as immediate as HTML or a hyperlink, should be considered
-- signatures: ah yes, a great method for labeling things

Mailing List Tools (those availiable on most mailing lists)

-- archives: since we've talked some about this before, I don't think I need to describe it again
-- replying to individuals or the group: making for ways of keeping secrets or having personal conversations (though these wouldn't normally make it into the archives)
-- message additions: most mailing lists have options for tacking info onto every post they distribute, such as "[name]" on the title or basic list info on the bottom
-- digests: most lists also have a digest function that will take a collection of posts and turn them into a single document; that has to be useful for something

Other Tools (which could be availiable on some lists or in other places)

-- surveys: some places like YahooGroups let you vote on specific issues as a list
-- storage space: some lists give you places to store files or information
-- dice servers: some lists (like those on The Phoeynx) actually run dice programs when they process posts
-- sublists: some mailing lists can set up "sublists" that only certain people are subscribed to, so that certain messages don't go to everyone

-----------------------------

That's all I can think of, off the top of my head.  Did I miss anything?

Later.
Jonathan

In the other tools category:

Some lists have the ability to grant different levels of authority to members.  Who can view files, who can upload files.  Presumeably who can respond to a mail list and who can just read it...I haven't seen it used myself, but I have to believe that as a forum standard its made its way to email lists somewhere.

Some lists also have the ability to automatically send mail and attachments at intervals.  Often used to send initial welcome letters and periodic FAQ updates.  SOme obvious utility there.


Question.  Are you limiting the definition of PBeM to true email.  Or are you includingl the possiblity  of combining email and web forums

Hi there,

If it's been mentioned and I missed it, then I apologize, but it seems significant to me that a person engaged in a group emailing activity has full power to exclude some members of the group from a given email, with no "signifiers" to the excluded that he is doing so.

That would seem to be an important aspect of this sort of play, when it's exercised.

Best,
Ron

If you haven't already, check out the PBEM games at http://www.reality.com.

I think you miss my point when I talk about the game being web based. I would have it be available as a subscription service. Or you pay once and play. This is not necessarily MMORPG. It could be if you want to play in the general populace, but people could also be purchasing their own private forums, essentially.

Start with a basic world, and update it whenever it makes sense to do so.

Essentially, what I'm thinking of would look a bit like a Yahoo group already populated with files and tools that incorporated the setting and NPCs, and whatever other tools would help. Make the online tools associated with the site so useful (including help from live admins), that just copying the materials would not make for a decent replication of the experience. To keep em coming back. Solves some of the problems of PDF distribution. Sure people can start their own Yahoo group with the stuff, but they hav to set it all up, and then the might not have all the tools, and no help from the experienced admins...just might work.

Actually, the presence of the community playing there might be a draw in and of itself.

Mike

Hi guys,

After thinking on this today, I was going to come back and post that from what I've read, games like Universalis and Nobilis would be a good fit for PBEM's if you limited posts to one paragraph or so but you beat me to it.  

Re: licenses, I didn't mean to imply you (Jonathan) should write "3E the PBEM", what I meant was I would like to see a PBEM system that gave generic guidelines for adapting characters from stat-based systems to play in your PBEM system.  I think this would be a huge draw to fans who already play a particular game.

Anyway I think you have a great idea.  I've been really frustrated with PBEM's in the past due to the clunkiness of the "systems" that were used from game to game but maybe I just got involved in the wrong games.  

Pete

I actually ran a completely blind PBEM.  The players would all send me their turns, and I would figure out what happened and reply back individually.  No one knew which characters were players or which were just me.  It was going really well, but it go to the point where I was writing about 10 pages a week, and I couldn't keep up with that and school.

I'd decided that if I could find a decent way to manage something like that, via a message board or some other web-based form, I'd pick it back up.

A game that was especially designed for PBEM play would be interesting.  It would put all the players on the same page and I might not feel I have to keep the blinders on in order to keep everything organized.

In fact, I'm off to look for a free php bulleting board script I can use right now.  I want to try it with Donjon.  Ahh, veered a little off topic there at the end.  Sorry...

I only have a little experience with PBEM games, but one thing I have noticed is that it is easy for players to lose track of what is happening due to the lag between between messages.  Of course, this is exacerbated when there are delays and delays are inevitable (vacations, computer crashes, etc.).  A message archive will help, but what's really important is that the players can easily get the information they need out of the archive.  A good search tool is needed and enforcing some sort of standard subject line structure wouldn't hurt.