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Hello everybody,

This is my first post, so I will ramble a bit: thank you for this very interesting website, and congratulation on all the RPGs you succeeded in creating. The site design looks great.

So, there are a lot of different subjects I would like to discuss here, but with the limited amount of time I have on my hands, I'll just start with one. I don't know if the matter has been raised yet. If it has, tell me where, and I'll swear I will read the thread. But I'm definitely not going to search through this:
Our users have posted a total of 49454 articles
We have 1137 registered users
;p

End of rambling (well, I'll let you judge that !)

So, the title was « mystical roleplay ». During the course of my long years of playing both tabletop RPG and computer RPG (respectively TRPG and CPRG from now on) and my few years of working in the video game industry, I have several times heard (or formulated) that notion that RP can be a mystical experience. That statement took different forms, I'll quote and develop a few, and then I'll comment if the subject is interesting to some of you.

According to these ideas, with the decay of the traditional western values, codes and educational system, the youngsters are deprived of a mystical teaching. A teaching that would explain not the hows but the whys of the world. They thus seek a mean to reconnect with their higher aspirations. They use TRPG to basically "self-initiate". Which means they -consciously or not- seek ascension of the soul through exploration of virtual stories. I've heard that about "Warcraft III" and "Morrowind" for instance. I think we could also consider the Ultima series before that, and DragonLance or World Of Darkness in the TRPG district. An over-protected generation creates virtual trials to awaken itself.

Another aspect of the question is that, if the stories, characters and places involved in TRPG and CRPG are virtual and do not exist, the players' emotions are real. During a really good game, if you have a strong visual imagination, you can almost see images of the virtual world and events. Almost. After the game, the images are not so vivid, but you still can vaguely recall them. After a few years, though, the images we have seen in the real world are pretty blurry as well. So, after some time, both kinds of memories are not so different anymore. Of course, you know that one of the memories is real and the other dream. Still the image is there. Same with the relationships. TRPG is extremely binding when it goes well. It can create very strong friendship bonds. What we imagine is psychologically real.

I think some people even create RPG to actually try to communicate moral values to their players. I can point the French TRPG "Shaan" for instance. I'll risk the Ultima Series on that one as well, although I'm not sure, and don't want to speak in the name of the Lord.

All of this being probably connected to what Joseph Campbell calls "creative mythology".

So, I'd be interested to have your opinions on those matters. Do you think we try or tried at some point to use RPG as a mean toward initiation? Can it be done? Should it?

Bon soir, Renard.

You've covered a lot of ground, let me see if I can be of some help.

First, go to the Articles section and read the GNS and Other Matters of Role-playing Theory article. Pay special attention to Narrativism , especially Premise therein. This seems, to me, to be in line with what you're talking about.

I almost got confused because this forum recently had several threads about mythology, but they don't relate to what you're talking about since they involved in-game mythology whereas you're talking about RPGs as a religious experience, as it were. Not really the same thing

Quote from: Renard d'eau

According to these ideas, with the decay of the traditional western values, codes and educational system, the youngsters are deprived of a mystical teaching. A teaching that would explain not the hows but the whys of the world. They thus seek a mean to reconnect with their higher aspirations. They use TRPG to basically "self-initiate". Which means they -consciously or not- seek ascension of the soul through exploration of virtual stories. I've heard that about "Warcraft III" and "Morrowind" for instance. I think we could also consider the Ultima series before that, and DragonLance or World Of Darkness in the TRPG district. An over-protected generation creates virtual trials to awaken itself.

I'm not going to comment about the people of today not having systems of mystical teaching, but I will concentrate on the relevance of mysticism/spiritualism on role-playing.

I use premises taken from religious/mystic/spiritualist traditions (or the common ground shared by them) in pretty much all my campaigns. These can include meditations on the nature of Karma (as my current Star Wars campaign), the inherent unity of mankind (as my past Legend of the Five Rings campaign) or any of these kinds of things. Practically this happens in the way Narrativist premises are handled and also through strong NPCs embodying these principles.

I definately think adding this aspect into the games makes for a deeper experience (just like any Narrativist premise will add depth), but will also create strong relevance to real life. Most of my players are interested in these kinds of things (mystic/spiritualist premises) so that probably makes things easier and I'm not sure if force feeding any of these things would work even across a role-playing table (and to go on a short tangent on the "failure" of mystic traditions : I think force feeding is the problem why people won't get them as these things are very much based on your own relevations).

So, yes -- I think these are great things to consider in role-playing. You can explore these issues through the fantastic which is both entertaining and potentially educating.

But no -- I don't think we should ever consider role-playing a mechanical manner in which to transmit understanding of this type, to not fall into a dogmatic religious trap, but instead we should consider the act of role-playing a direct transmission of knowledge between players.

That's my brief view on the subject.

- Joachim Buchert -

Mystical practices are generaly about withdrawal from engagement with the material world - the world of the senses. However that doesn't mean that thinking about fantasy worlds counts as mysticism - rather it is merely substituting imagined matter and virtualised sensory stimulus for the real thing. Therefore I don't think you're any more likely to experience mystical states of conciousness through roleplaying in imaginary worlds, than through activities in the real world.

Roleplaying, like othe rforms of fiction, is a great way to explore 'what if' scenarios. We can create imaginary worlds with imaginary philosophies and imaginary religions and explore the exploits of imaginary philosophers and teachers. All the while, we can use real world concepts as a resource and therefore explore subjects of direct relevence to the real world using our fantastical thought experiments.

Hwever please don't confuse what we might call experimental theology (or any form of theological discussion or study) with the actual practice of religion or mysticism. We can learn about it through roleplaying, just as we can learn about all kinds of human moral and social concepts through fiction, but we can't actualy do it.


Simon Hibbs

Quote from: simon_hibbsMystical practices are generally about withdrawal from engagement with the material world - the world of the senses.

I'm not able to speak for "generally" or for Christianity, but I can tell you that a significant number of religions are not about "withdrawal from engagement."  This way of thinking that they are may cause a complication in this discussion.

Again, I can't speak for "generally," but of all the religions I've been exposed to, they are about seeking addition relevance to the experiential world, "the world of the senses."  If I understand this thread correctly, the question posed has something to do with using gaming to explore these 'additional relevances' safely and in a more interactive form than that of story.

Fang Langford

p. s. My personal religious beliefs rather focus on, not just "the world of the senses," but more than that; not things apart, but inextricably intertwined with the experiential world.

Quote from: Renard d'eauDo you think we try or tried at some point to use RPG as a mean toward initiation? Can it be done? Should it?

No. No. No.

[Edited because I was a bit negative.]

Quote from: Le Joueur

Quote from: simon_hibbsMystical practices are generally about withdrawal from engagement with the material world - the world of the senses.

I'm not able to speak for "generally" or for Christianity, but I can tell you that a significant number of religions are not about "withdrawal from engagement."[/quote

That's true of course, but then not all religious practices are mystical.

I suppose I may be using the term in a theologicaly technical sense not intended in the orriginal post, but a quick check of Merriam-Webster of the term Mystical suggests that it's meaning in common language is consistent with my interpretation too.

I'm not trying to complicate anything, and if I misunderstood the orriginal question then I appologise.


Simon Hibbs

For some people the lack of "reality" in an RPG is going to be a deal-breaker. Most initiations involve some real, physical act, in addition to the Mythical underpinnings.

A while back, I spoke to a guy who was part of an organization that dealt with the phenomenon that you mention. He said that given that Western Society no longer had any initiation rituals that boys were maturing to physical adulthood without ever reaching spiritual adulthood. As such the organization that he belonged to was dedicated to provide just these sorts of "rites of passage" to men who had never had such.

I thought it strange at the time, but then it occured to me that I had been initiated. Basic Training, 1987, Ft. Sill, Oklahoma. It doesn't get much more "real" or "physical" than that. As Simon points out, most religions do have such initiations, and they are, often, physical (I am reminded of my First Communion).

So I kinda understand the idea. There are probably lots of people who never get any sort of initiation. OTOH, the whole organization seemed to smack of a cult. One of their principles was that they coldn't discuss it much, and certainly coudn't discuss the rituals; presumably to keep it sacrosanct. I think, in some technical senses it was in fact a cult. But at the very least they provided real, physical initiation rituals (I assume).

What you're proposing takes away that physical element. Furthermore, RPGs automatically carry some feeling of artificiality (if they don't for you, seek therapy). Now, there may be some for whom this is still sufficient, and RPGs could certainly cover the mythical requirements. I just think that for many, the lack of that physicality to the initiation, and the potential sense of fraud, would make it ineffective.

Further, RPGs seem like cults to people already. This would certainly push them over the edge and mark them as even more "fringe" than they already are.

Mike

Personally, and not to play saint's advocate or something :), I don't at all see why this can't work.  You'd have to have a couple of caveats:

1. Everybody's completely committed to the desired goal --- they're looking for mystical experiences here.

2. Nobody has a strong preconception about what mystical ritual practices are or should be, and thus we're not going to try to "get there" through extremist Simulation.

3. Everyone seriously believes it can work, it's appropriate, it's moral, it's devout, it's respectful.  They take it really seriously.

Then you just think about session design in terms of ritual practice.  You think about Turner and liminality, where the participants in the ritual (game) are wearing masks (characters), which helps disengage them from profane reality.  And so forth.

Bear in mind that what you're going to end up with here is mystical ritual.  I personally think that analyzing session play in ritual-theory terms is completely legitimate, but I do think that you're going to get a lot of resistance.  Most gamers do not think of their games as ritual, or even potentially so.  Many gamers are strongly committed to the idea that there is a deep and unbridgeable divide between "playing it" and "doing it."  And the game you end up with is going to be so idiosyncratic, personal (limited to one teeny group), and so unlike other games that I think a lot of gamers would say it isn't an RPG anymore.

But I think it is....

I thought a little bit more about this matter and remembered my personal problem with White Wolf's Mage. The mythology of that game is firmly rooted in various mystical traditions of the real world and oddly (despite my interest in mysticism) I've always found this little fact to push me away from the game. It raises the question for me: why would I want to play this? Whatever accomplished in the game will just be pale "fortune-cookie-philosophy" imitation of an actual epiphany.

Yes, this is in (some) contradiction to my earlier post and I'm wondering about that, but this is how I've viewed Mage.

To play the opposing advocate, the argument would be that the myths that inform other ritual are just as fictional as an RPG. Again, I have no doubt that someone could swallow that part. It's the actual, real, physical element that I find missing. And, before anyone mentions it, I doubt that any LARP experience would do it. That is you can't simulate dunking in the river, you actually have to get dunked.

If one did go to this extent, then it would no longer be role-playing, but actual ritual. And you would be a cult.

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesAnd, before anyone mentions it, I doubt that any LARP experience would do it. That is you can't simulate dunking in the river, you actually have to get dunked.

If one did go to this extent, then it would no longer be role-playing, but actual ritual. And you would be a cult.

Actually, I think this raises an interesting question which sort of focuses the point of the thread.

If you role-play an initiation ritual with considerable detail, can it be compared to an actual initiation ritual? Would adding the physical reality part to it via LARPing bring it from imagination to reality? Of course, I think it would still depend on your level of immersion and also your ability to separate fiction from fact. I don't think LARPing a Freemason's initiation ritual would make you a Freemason or a cultist per se. However, undoubtedly some part of the impact would carry over from the virtual to the actual reality. I could see some type of player wanting to do this to further their immersion and emotional investment in their character.

The pressupposition is that the participants are in fact deadly earnest and trying to become Freemasons. So, if you do the ritual, and believe that it's for real (that the Freemasons will accept you), and you actually perform the physical parts, then how is this any different from actually doing the ritual?

I fail to see how you could believe that the acting out of the ritual would work if it was a simulation, and the Freemasons know nothing of it.

If you don't have this belief, and are still transformed by the ritual, well then, I've admitted that this is possible. But I think it would work with much less fecundity than the real thing. And given that you are doing all the motions, why not do the real thing?

Mike

I am an atheist, yet I like Haendel's messiah, or Bach's Matthauspassion., and I can sympathize with the emotions that this music evokes (or even experience them to some extent while still not believing). And I doubt anyone has ever been converted by music alone.

Well, of course you wouldn't succeed in performing the initiatory ritual as an actual entrance to the order, but you could succeed in obtaining a similar (spiritual) state the (frex) Freemasons are trying to convey via their use of the relevant symbolism in the initiation.

The key issue is that you're just acting this out. It could be argued that it isn't "really you" who is doing this, but the character you're depicting. Of course, the borders are getting blurry there, but that could be the point (though I do see that it could be viewed as rather cult like activity at this point -- or just a case of a very dedicated player). This seems similar to an actor that upon accepting a role as a drug addict decides to have actual experiences with drugs, or (to use a less criminal example) an actor portraying a boxer actually getting into the ring.

As for the example of music, there is a slight difference. Though you can hear the product of a composer's work and experience that, you're not as likely to be as immersed in the consciousness (ie. the thoughts and worldview that contributed to the work turning out the way it did) in the same depth as you could by following a "doctrine" of sorts. It's not just the experience, but the thinking supporting it.

Anyway, I'm headed towards more aimless rambling. Maybe Renard d'eau who started this should contribute to our musings re: his original intentions with this thread.

- Joachim -