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It seems that the king is pdf document. But why?
Because you can print it and tabletop rpg products are about papers.
But don't you think that most gamers in the world that install your pdf could use their laptop even more?
They can do with html or flash. Fasa has done an html version of Earthdawn that seems to run well. It also seems that you can do wonderful interactive aplications with macromedia. Imagine that like this you can provide interactive maps or interactive templates that book and pages searching gets out of thinking.Just go check out lord of the rings the movie official website.
So why not make rpg products like this?
I haven't seen any in the market...

I do PDF over HTML for a few reasons.  To name 3:

* I can keep people from being able to edit it if I want

* I can get far more precise layout control than I can with HTML

* I can deliver a single document that contains all of the information, rather than separate image files, html files, etc.

PDF is fine, but these arguments don't convince me.

Quote from: iagoI do PDF over HTML for a few reasons.  To name 3:

* I can keep people from being able to edit it if I want

For what reason? And a sophisticated user can get around that, anyhow. Given that the whole document can be copied and distributed, what's wrong with making portions copyable? Sounds like value added for the customer, to me to be able to copy. I can make my own references, etc.

Quote* I can get far more precise layout control than I can with HTML

But given a user who wants to see it on the screen, it actually often looks worse in PDF format than HTML.

Quote* I can deliver a single document that contains all of the information, rather than separate image files, html files, etc.

A Zip file will not suffice? Not an issue, IMO.

I really like the idea of such a game. One really neat thing is that it can have links to other online support, and I can alter the files to link to more stuff I want in there.

The possibilities are really intriguing for a geeky hacker like myself.

That said, I can understand wanting to print the game as well. Make both available for sale? Or sell them as a cool bundle? Sounds like a great product to me.

IIRC, somebody, possibly BTRC already does this.

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesPDF is fine, but these arguments don't convince me.

Well, I'm more sharing my reasons, than making an "argument", but I'll respond all the same.

Quote

Quote from: iagoI do PDF over HTML for a few reasons.  To name 3:

* I can keep people from being able to edit it if I want

For what reason? And a sophisticated user can get around that, anyhow. Given that the whole document can be copied and distributed, what's wrong with making portions copyable? Sounds like value added for the customer, to me to be able to copy. I can make my own references, etc.

Sure. I said if I want.  There may be cases where I may want that (a legal license that I don't want edited if the document is copied and distributed to other sites for download), but that gets weighed against the reduced value for the customer.

Quote

Quote* I can get far more precise layout control than I can with HTML

But given a user who wants to see it on the screen, it actually often looks worse in PDF format than HTML.

I've heard this before.  It has rarely, if ever, been true for me for my uses and experience.  Quite the opposite -- too often I've seen a document that was designed for use in one particular kind of browser, that doesn't work or look right in the one I use.

And since PDF in my mind is for both screen and print use (value to the customer: providing something that works for both options), the better control over pagination that PDF gives me is a real print-based win.

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Quote* I can deliver a single document that contains all of the information, rather than separate image files, html files, etc.

A Zip file will not suffice? Not an issue, IMO.

No, it won't.  That zipfile has to be 'exploded', and afterwards there's opportunity for the separate elements (images, pages) to get messed with.  This isn't a distribution based issue for me, it's a question of whether or not the product is truly tidy.  

Say I have a legal obligation to give an artist credit for a work that appears in my product; with a PDF, that image is incontrovertibly part of the product, and you can see that it is "attached" to the credit given inside the front cover.  HTML doesn't provide me this kind of guarantee.

QuoteI really like the idea of such a game. One really neat thing is that it can have links to other online support, and I can alter the files to link to more stuff I want in there.

The possibilities are really intriguing for a geeky hacker like myself.

That said, I can understand wanting to print the game as well. Make both available for sale? Or sell them as a cool bundle? Sounds like a great product to me.

IIRC, somebody, possibly BTRC already does this.

Well, you *can* embed links in PDFs with the right PDF products, but I hear you on the hacker front.  I just prefer the PDF modus operandi -- but your message about the utility of multi-available formats does not fall on deaf ears.

Hey Mike,

I have to disagree very strongly. I will almost never read games written in HTML because they invariably make me blind. Not that HTML has to be bad, but it almost always does. I have a tiny monitor at work and a huge monitor at home, but neither offers a good medium for reading large amounts of text, especially when it is formatted badly.

In addition to layout, Acrobat Reader has a huge advantage over any web browser I have seen: the ability to resize the page without reflowing the text. Browsers put way too many words on a line, and increasing the font size does horrible things to the fonts and makes it hard to scan text quickly because most of it is off-screen.

I really would like to see HTML not suck one day, but while we wait for the browser designers to stop bickering over whether or not to implement HTML4 and CSS2, completely and by the book, that day is far off, indeed.

Later,
Grant

I do .pdf because I know how. I'm clueless when it comes to html, but with Apple, to create a .pdf, you just have to "print", "print preview", "save as .pdf". Simple as 1 2 3. If I wanted to to html, I'd actually have to learn something. :D

Jeff S.

Quote from: iagoIt has rarely, if ever, been true for me for my uses and experience.  Quite the opposite -- too often I've seen a document that was designed for use in one particular kind of browser, that doesn't work or look right in the one I use.

First, if the page is made portrait, you have to do a lot of unnescessary scrolling. Clinton did a great job with his PDF for donjon making both a screen presentation, and a print presentation. But even when you do that you're stuck with the fact that a PDF is a print preview, and as such not designed to display clearly on a screen. So either you end up straining your eyes to read, or you have to zoom in, which again leaves you with more scrolling than you need.

PDF is perfect for printing (I'd never suggest anything else), but leaves a lot to be desired in terms of screen viewing. As the thread is about eproducts meant to be consumed by geeks like me, PDF has to stand up to the online presentation without benefit of it's printing values. Quite simply, I gave up printing PDF's long ago. I actually prefer to read on a screen.

Yes, HTML handling can be a bitch. So use simple coding and skip the fancy layout. I'm about accessing content, not flashy presentation. YMMV.

QuoteNo, it won't.  That zipfile has to be 'exploded', and afterwards there's opportunity for the separate elements (images, pages) to get messed with.  This isn't a distribution based issue for me, it's a question of whether or not the product is truly tidy.  

I'm not sure how it could become messed up accidentally. Intentionally? Sure. That's what I'm after. After I read the presentation once to get the authors take, I'm going to scramble that baby up like it was in a blender til it looks like what I want. I'll keep a copy, however, in case I need to find the credits. :-)

QuoteWell, you *can* embed links in PDFs with the right PDF products, but I hear you on the hacker front.  I just prefer the PDF modus operandi -- but your message about the utility of multi-available formats does not fall on deaf ears.

Yeah, for Joe Average, printing is still probably a big deal. So til then PDF is still required. But I hope to see further support in other online media soon. I'd pay extra for it.

Mike

Iago, jeph and ThreeGee check out Earthdown CD version made with html and tell what you think. I don't know but html used properly can do awesome presentations.

I see a debate over here mainly focused on pdf and html. What about flash and macromedia? I believe the possibilities they offer are fantastic(if you are fond of artistic layouts and interactivity facilities).
What do you think of those over other formats?

These would be great. But the overhead for such is probably prohibitive. I can program stuff like that, but who has time to do all that in addition to writing the game? I was trying to stick to the more modest suggestion of HTML because it seems more practical.

But yeah, in a perfect world.

Mike

Quote from: xechnaoIago, jeph and ThreeGee check out Earthdown CD version made with html and tell what you think. I don't know but html used properly can do awesome presentations.

I see a debate over here mainly focused on pdf and html. What about flash and macromedia? I believe the possibilities they offer are fantastic(if you are fond of artistic layouts and interactivity facilities).

What do you think of those over other formats?

I've seen the Earthdawn CD (have it around somewhere).  It's far and away an exception rather than a rule. :)

Flash and macromedia -- they have potential, sure, but the learning curve to create something really solid and workable is huge.  I mess with Flash occasionally; I'd never use it to create a game.  I  might use it to create a game-enhancing tool, though.

QuoteI've seen the Earthdawn CD (have it around somewhere). It's far and away an exception rather than a rule. :)

Agree. But what are the other ugly examples that make up the rule. I haven't seen any other html products elsewhere.

QuoteFlash and macromedia -- they have potential, sure, but the learning curve to create something really solid and workable is huge. I mess with Flash occasionally; I'd never use it to create a game. I might use it to create a game-enhancing tool, though.

Agree. Check out Macromedia FreeHand MX. They have a nice tour on their website. I think it could be excellent for some rpg gaming use, by those who have done the learning curve of course. But it also seems easy to use, at least from the tour.

Come to think of it, the wargame Brikwars has a pretty readable version of it's 2000 edition in html.

Hey all,

A couple years ago, I was tired of fighting with Acrobat 4, so I converted Slayer to HTML/CSS, and I would like to think that it was more than readable. However, almost everything I have seen has been run-on paragraphs with default headers and no attempt at flow control, as if the writer held his readers in contempt. After struggling through enough of these pages describing equally generic games, I had enough. Anything that insults me as a reader is not read, no matter how good it might be.

On the other hand, Raygun has made a wonderful example of what a game site might look like: http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/ It is a wee-bit frustrating to print, but it certainly looks pretty on the screen. The ideal solution, I imagine, is to do both a website and a pdf version well.

Later,
Grant

I've been toying with making an RPG in full flash.  I was thinking of doing it with Elohim, in essence it would be like an actual interface and all sorts off cool stuff.  Problem is it takes me a long time to make animated Flash junk.  That and my plan includes lots of art which I cannot make myself.

I do prefer PDF over HTML because I hate how HTML saves to my computer.  I hate the clutter it creates.  In fact I have most of the Pyramid articles I like saved in PDF.

-Joshua

The idea for interactive electronic products sounds great, but there are some realities to confront.  The first is that distributing anything executable is a pain (and flash/shockwave are executable).  All computers are not built alike, and I have yet to see executable content of any source that runs the same (or at all) on every computer.  

Developing interactive content is also hideously expensive/time consuming.  To produce it in anything like a reasonable timescale you'd need to hire programmers, and I can assure you that we don't work cheap (but if you do have deep pockets and want a nice app for your game, drop me a line).

Your best bet is to produce it in some kind of open format that most computers can access.  For now, that's PDF or HTML.  You can really do quite a bit with HTML.  Interactive maps that allow you to click areas for more detail or information are pretty easy to generate.  If you're willing to have your interactive features online there's a lot more you can do with CGI scripts. Let's not forget PDF Forms, which create modifiable areas of PDF documents.  This could give you a beautiful PDF character sheet that players can fill out and print.