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Hi guys, I'm a new member to the Forge, but have been reading along for ages now. I've been working on a Nar game with a simple Fortune mechanic, and am having some issues I thought y'all could advise me about.

Fist, in a nutshell, the game: Aisling, urban myth - PCs are normal people awakened to the reality of other worlds, faries and goblins and trolls and so on, dealing with the essentially political division between Seelie (pro-Human), Unseelie (anti-human) and Fianna (don't care) courts. It's Nar in style mostly because that's my own gaming style, and I forget to ask for rolls, so it's very rules lite, offering mostly a setting.

Basic mechanic involves Motes - colored tokens (I've been using the little colored glass stones used for Pente or M:tG counters, but dice, tiddly-winks, toothpicks, cards, or polished stones would work). Here's a basic rundown of how it works. When a test is called for, the player draws a number of tokens out of a bag equivalent to his skill rating, or Hand. Each skill has a color associated with it (Red=Athletic, Amber=Precision, and so on), and the skill's color defines the target color of the draw. Exact hits (drawing a red token when testing a red skill) is 2 successes, and drawing a colored token of a color adjacent to the target is one success (Amber and Magenta in the case of Red). If # of successes is >= difficulty of the task, then the action succeeds.

For example, Sally wants her character Kayley to throw a plate at the cop entering the diner. This is a precision skill (as are most firearms), and her Throw Things skill is rated A4 (Amber, 4 motes), against a difficulty of 3. She draws 4 motes (aka tokens) and gets 2 red motes, an amber, and a blue. This is 4 successes (2 for the amber, and 1 each for the reds, nothing for the blue) - she hits the cop square in the face.

So, the problem: the pool of tokens that a player draws from is called a Caern. Each caern has a basic make-up (say 3 of each color, plus 1 white, 1 black, and 1 irridescent) that is then personalized to the character. My problem, on which I'd appreciate your input, is a simple, minimal math sort of way to build the caern. The number of motes in a caern is not an issue (one player could have 30, and another 23), as they are supposed to represent the metaphysical DNA of a character. Anyone have ideas or input?

Thanks in advance,

Aidan

Hi, Aidan. Welcome to The Forge.

I'm not SuperProbabilityGuy, but I can make some observations (and ask some questions):

The number of motes in a Caern does make a difference if the numbers of differently colored motes are uneven. The fewer motes, the more difference an inequality between colors would make.

Are motes replaced after they are chosen? This, too, makes a huge difference.

How many colors are there? Without knowing this, it would be difficult to give you any mathy advice.

One issue, of course, is that finding the right number of objects of the appropriate colors may be difficult for many people.

You've stated that the game is Narrativist in style. Based on the game mechanic you've mentioned, I don't see that (the mechanic itself seems, I guess, Sim-color or something, which isn't a bad thing). There might, of course, be other parts to the system that facillitate Narrativism that you haven't mentioned... or you might simply mean that you tend to run it Narrativist (which says nothing about the game itself). It is good to remember, too, that rules-lite and Narrativist are different things.

Stuart

Quote from: szilard
The number of motes in a Caern does make a difference if the numbers of differently colored motes are uneven. The fewer motes, the more difference an inequality between colors would make.

This is true. I have worked out the probabilities for everything already,  and having a basis to the makeup (the 3 starting motes of each color to start, for example) levels the probabilities a bit. At the same time, I like the differences it introduces as characterizing the differences between characters.  A simple, flat, method (plain old %s, or something like that), together with my mechanic (if everyone had the same caern make-up) would get too complicated if I wanted to keep the individuality of the odds.  This method keeps the (mechanical) difference between characters simply represented without using zillions of skills or other methods.

Quote from: slizard
Are motes replaced after they are chosen? This, too, makes a huge difference.

Yes, motes are replaced after they are drawn, with a few exceptions involving magic. For example, some spells are maintained by using threads of magic(aka motes - yes, the term does serve a lot of purposes!) from the character's own makeup, i.e. their caern.

Quote from: slizard
How many colors are there? Without knowing this, it would be difficult to give you any mathy advice.

There are 7 main colors, using the additive "spectrum": red, amber, green, cyan, blue, magenta, and clear (=white light). Every caern includes one mote each of white, black, and irridescent. These are the Fate motes, which represent special occurences, auto- or critical success (white), auto- or critical failure (black), and magical, fated, weird stuff (irrid.).

Quote from: slizard
One issue, of course, is that finding the right number of objects of the appropriate colors may be difficult for many people.

This is true, though I think having colored dice (a lot of gamers could fudge the colors from their dice bags - the black/red = red, and the black/green = amber, and so on), cards (playing or otherwise), or even popsicle sticks with one end colored would work. I have also worked out a dice method to represent the colors. Crayons would work. Beans colored with magic markers would work. There are options, and I don't anticipate this being a major player in the game market. If it ever goes there, it's already got a built in accessories line! :D  

Quote from: slizard
You've stated that the game is Narrativist in style. Based on the game mechanic you've mentioned, I don't see that (the mechanic itself seems, I guess, Sim-color or something, which isn't a bad thing). There might, of course, be other parts to the system that facillitate Narrativism that you haven't mentioned... or you might simply mean that you tend to run it Narrativist (which says nothing about the game itself). It is good to remember, too, that rules-lite and Narrativist are different things.

Very true, and I do recognize that rules-lite doesn't mean Narrative. I just work within a narrative style so often that I forget the fact! I do think that the system is sufficiently freeform that Sim doesn't seem so appropriate, at least, not in a realistic, non-gritty way (as the game is not hyper-realistic and is gritty). I also don't think it's Gaming oriented, as there aren't really any specific in-built ways to score success. But maybe this is my own Narrativist bias.

There are other ways the mote mechanic influences my thought that the game is Narr in style. Magic (always a complicated topic) is one of the most important of these. A "spell" is cast by gathering motes of energy and weaving them together into a coherent form. In mechanic terms, the player draws X motes per round or other time unit, and uses the color of the motes drawn to describe the effects of the spell (which may take several time units to gather). A single red mote might be a "light candle" cantrip, while a fireball might require several reds, a couple of blues (for distance), and a magenta (for damage). There are some established "recipes", but this method also allows for freeform, off-the-cuff spell creation, very nice in an emergency. It also adds to the experience and complexity, as some motes can be melded to create new ones. For example, following the above RRBBM recipe for a fireball, if a player (drawing only 2 motes ber round) gets a magenta and an amber, the two motes can be combined into a single red.

All of which is sort of irrelevant to the question at hand.  Motes of particular colors can be used to create spells, influence actions, and as part of the story (flows of energy, or Luck, are different colors too). I guess I think that it doesn't fit into GNS really readily - it could be used by anyone, theoretically, in any sort of style. I guess the most distinctive characteristic  in any of these theoretical frameworks is that it has a Fortune based mechanic, with some Drama (in Luck that can be earned for good roleplaying, and with the needs of the story/players more important than the results).

I'll shut up now.

Aidan

Quote
There are 7 main colors, using the additive "spectrum": red, amber, green, cyan, blue, magenta, and clear (=white light). Every caern includes one mote each of white, black, and irridescent. These are the Fate motes, which represent special occurences, auto- or critical success (white), auto- or critical failure (black), and magical, fated, weird stuff (irrid.).

I assume black and white cancel each other (or mean something special) if they are drawn together?

Quote

Quote from: szilard
One issue, of course, is that finding the right number of objects of the appropriate colors may be difficult for many people.

This is true, though I think having colored dice (a lot of gamers could fudge the colors from their dice bags - the black/red = red, and the black/green = amber, and so on), cards (playing or otherwise), or even popsicle sticks with one end colored would work. I have also worked out a dice method to represent the colors. Crayons would work. Beans colored with magic markers would work. There are options, and I don't anticipate this being a major player in the game market. If it ever goes there, it's already got a built in accessories line! :D  

Heh.

Cards are probably the simplest of substitutes. Easy to make and/or color code and each character can have a deck to draw from as a caern.

As far as Caern creation goes, is caern-makeup the only difference between characters statistically? If so, that's interesting. Is there a reason to do anything other than say that a character gets 3 of each mote color + b/w/irrid + 7 of his choice (limited to the spectrum)?

Stuart

Quote from: szilard
I assume black and white cancel each other (or mean something special) if they are drawn together?

They could cancel, become irridescent, or anything else judged appropriate.

Quote from: szilard
Cards are probably the simplest of substitutes. Easy to make and/or color code and each character can have a deck to draw from as a caern.

Last phase of playtesting, that's what I did. But then people were jealous of my glass bobblies, and wanted some to play with too. Little glass bobblies are fun fidgety toys...

Quote from: slizard
As far as Caern creation goes, is caern-makeup the only difference between characters statistically? If so, that's interesting. Is there a reason to do anything other than say that a character gets 3 of each mote color + b/w/irrid + 7 of his choice (limited to the spectrum)?

I've tried that, and though I have this general rule for character creation ("yes!"), it made for some pretty unbalanced characters who were only good at one thing. I've used the character traits (also associated with colors) as factors too, but I haven't found proportions that seemed "right". For example, I built caerns with 5 of each, and then added in the stats. Then with half of the stats. That is, a Body(red) of 6 would give a caern with 8 red motes (5 base + 3 (6/2) for the stat.

Now that I'm explaining it out, I'm starting to feel like I'm merely indecisive. Maybe this is just fine.

Or how about half the stats + 5 of player's choice?

Aidan

Quote from: taalyn

Quote from: slizard
As far as Caern creation goes, is caern-makeup the only difference between characters statistically? If so, that's interesting. Is there a reason to do anything other than say that a character gets 3 of each mote color + b/w/irrid + 7 of his choice (limited to the spectrum)?

I've tried that, and though I have this general rule for character creation ("yes!"), it made for some pretty unbalanced characters who were only good at one thing. I've used the character traits (also associated with colors) as factors too, but I haven't found proportions that seemed "right". For example, I built caerns with 5 of each, and then added in the stats. Then with half of the stats. That is, a Body(red) of 6 would give a caern with 8 red motes (5 base + 3 (6/2) for the stat.

Now that I'm explaining it out, I'm starting to feel like I'm merely indecisive. Maybe this is just fine.

Or how about half the stats + 5 of player's choice?

Oh. So characters do have stats in addition to caerns?

Right. Your initial example has someone with the Throw Things skill rated at 4.

What are these skill and stats? How do they relate to the colors? What scale are they on/range do they have? How are the numbers determined?

Stuart

Hey Aidan,

That is one of the neatest mechanics I have seen in some time. I love the idea of the player being able to stack the deck in such a way. Just as in a Magic deck, composition is a careful balancing act. Plus, it is a new toy to play with when you get tired of putting dice in your mouth.

To avoid completely one-sided characters, I would suggest not making each color a stat or category of action (like red=combat), but instead a stance or attitude (red=action, yellow=defense, etc). That way, any given action could require more than one color, depending on the situation.

Later,
Grant

OK, for chargen what about the character assigns 1/2/3/4/5/6/7 to each color and gets that many of each. Just happens to add up to 28 like other examples. Easy to remember, and no math.

Your game is a Simmy as they come as described so far. Simmy magical goodness. Quick note Narrative != Narrativist. For a game to promote Narrativism it has to have some mechanism whereby players are encouraged and empowered to address some moral or ethical question of thematic weight. Does your game do that? Not that we've seen. That said, I prefer what you have, so don't change a thing. GNS is going to be completely a side issue for you at this point.

Your game reminds me in some ways of Ars Magica. Actually, in a weird coincidence, it's also reminded me of the board game Magic Realm (for the second time in two days The Forge has brought this game to mind). In that game, you have chits that represent spellcasting ability that can be enchanted to provide color magic. To have a spell in effect for a duration, you need to have some color magic active. While using a chit for color magic, that chit is locked into that role, and can't be used to, say, cast more spells. Sounds very similar to what you're doing in some ways. Any chance it was an influence?

Mike

Quote from: szilard
Oh. So characters do have stats in addition to caerns?

Right. Your initial example has someone with the Throw Things skill rated at 4.

What are these skill and stats? How do they relate to the colors? What scale are they on/range do they have? How are the numbers determined?

Stuart

Here's a quick breakdown of chargen:

First, stats and skill groups associated with colors -
red          strength         athletic
amber      charisma       artistic
green       intelligence    knowledge
cyan        dexterity        crafting (carpentry, electrical, frex.)
blue         will                spiritual (counseling, frex.)
magenta   focus?           precision
clear        resilience?      magical

each stat (str, cha, etc.) has a score, and any given skill has a color associated with it that defines its target color. Any given skill could fall into a number of colors: dance could be red/athletic (aerobics, jazzercise), amber/artistic (modern dance), or magenta/precision (ballet) for example. Player decides color in these cases.

Each character also chooses a nature, which describes generic cultural background (e.g. 20th century white male, or 16th century swedish peasantwoman), usually includes era and/or year, location, social status, and gender. The nature only has a score (aka hand) associated with it, as it covers a large number of culturally relevant skills. It covers things like driving, literacy, computer use, and so on.

They then choose a profession (or two).  The profession has a color and a hand, and covers all skills generally associated with the job. A cop profession includes paperwork, firearms, law, etc. The color is assigned based on main characteristics of the job, but may change over time - a cop may start out on the beat (athletic/red) but move to forensics later (knowledge/green). Occasionally, other skills within the profession may be used which don't fall under the main color (forensics for the beat-cop, for example), at which time they are used at one less hand (if the beat cop has a profession of R5, or red focus, draw 5 motes, he could solve forensics questions at G4). When the job characteristics change, only the color changes - the beat cop at R5 is promoted to forensics at G5.

Finally, there are other skills unrelated to the nature or profession, or otherwise outside the scope of the profession. Hobbies and talents often fall into this group, hence their name: Talents. The beat cop might have oil painting (an Amber skill) and Firearms (Magenta as a shooting people skill, Green as a knowledge about firearms). Firearms, either kind, are subsumed in the profession, but perhaps our slightly better-than-average beat cop is a legendary marksman with this skill at M8.

The player has 36 motes to split among the 7 stats, nature, profession, and talents. The average human: 3, average starting PC/hero: 5, masters: 7+.
Average difficulty is 2 - for a completely balanced caern, a hand of 3 will result in 2 successes approx. 50% of the time.

I wonder if making the caern equal to the stats might be a simpler way of building them, and reflecting a character's make-up?

BTW, thanks for all the questions, Stuart, they're really helping a lot. Plus, they're practice in explaining things clearly.

Aidan

Quote from: ThreeGee
That is one of the neatest mechanics I have seen in some time. I love the idea of the player being able to stack the deck in such a way. Just as in a Magic deck, composition is a careful balancing act. Plus, it is a new toy to play with when you get tired of putting dice in your mouth.

heya Grant,

   Thanks! I started out with a dice mechanic, but wanted something to mimic the setting better. The color thing has been through several incarnations (enough that my players have a joke about the game as they go through various versions: "Thou shalt upgrade"). And yeah, glass bobblies in the mouth are great! And they're pretty, and shiny....oooh, shiny... <slobber>

Quote from: ThreeGee
To avoid completely one-sided characters, I would suggest not making each color a stat or category of action (like red=combat), but instead a stance or attitude (red=action, yellow=defense, etc). That way, any given action could require more than one color, depending on the situation.

But if you have more than one color required, what do you aim for when you draw motes? Normally, if a skill is red, I'm trying to get red (or, at the very least, magenta or amber) in order to succeed. For example, I'm firing a pistol at a beastie. I'm a beat-cop with M8 in the skill (as described in the previous post). I draw 8 motes, and get: RAXCCBCR (X=clear, C=cyan). That's 3 successes, 1 each for the two reds and the blue (red and blue are  adjacent to magenta, and thus worth 1 success each). So, if I'm firing the gun (action=red) in order to defend myself (yellow=defense), how exactly would that work?

As far as spells go, your idea is much more like what actually happens. Any color has a large number of associations, beyond stats and skills. A spell to grant a bonus to dexterity, for example, might include a cyan mote (to represent dexterity), a green (to increase), and a red (to define how many people are affected, or how long the bonus applies). This spell, 3 motes, would give a +3 bonus to dex for the duration if successful.

Thanks again for the compliments. They're nice to hear!!

Aidan

Quote from: Mike HolmesOK, for chargen what about the character assigns 1/2/3/4/5/6/7 to each color and gets that many of each. Just happens to add up to 28 like other examples. Easy to remember, and no math.

It is easy! But I'm worried that the simple numerical progression means that the lower end would be too weak and the higher too strong. In order to have any chance of succeeding, the player would have to make sure to always balance high with low in adjacent colors. If red/strength was 1, magenta or amber had better be 7 to offset the balance, or you'll almost never succeed in those kinds of skills!

What about just having stats and caern being identical? This might be the easiest to remember and calculate. I'm not coming up with big cons for it. perhaps Grant can comment  on a way that would keep the deck-construction feel he likes.

Quote
Your game is a Simmy as they come as described so far. Simmy magical goodness. Quick note Narrative != Narrativist. For a game to promote Narrativism it has to have some mechanism whereby players are encouraged and empowered to address some moral or ethical question of thematic weight. Does your game do that? Not that we've seen. That said, I prefer what you have, so don't change a thing. GNS is going to be completely a side issue for you at this point.

I agree - it's is an irrelevant question for me at this point. I hadn't really thought of Aisling (BTW, that's pronounced 'ESH-ling' and is Irish for 'vision or dream') as Simmy, but now that you've mentioned it, I suddenly can see it. The game does address "deep" questions (I don't believe in morals, which is a whole different rant, and not appropriate to this forum). The first story i ran, "Eyes This Big", was about a girl who was raped. In her shock and despair, she pushed out all the magic in herself, which became big mostrous beasties with Eyes This Big that went around eating people who had committed, or been accused of, rape. These victims were not always guilty.

I don't think these questions define a narrative style, per se, but rather a particular kind of story unrelated to the GNS schema. If you approach the game as a story, a narrative, this is a narrativist style, regardless of what kind of story it is. If the goal is to simulate a particular world or midset, then it's Simmy (and Aisling fits here better than i thought at first). And if there are ways to win or lose, or the game is approached/run that way, then it's Game-y (or Gamisty?).

QuoteYour game reminds me in some ways of Ars Magica. Actually, in a weird coincidence, it's also reminded me of the board game Magic Realm (for the second time in two days The Forge has brought this game to mind). In that game, you have chits that represent spellcasting ability that can be enchanted to provide color magic. To have a spell in effect for a duration, you need to have some color magic active. While using a chit for color magic, that chit is locked into that role, and can't be used to, say, cast more spells. Sounds very similar to what you're doing in some ways. Any chance it was an influence?

Nope, never played it. Only vaguely remember seeing it. Ars Magica was definitely a greater influence. Mostly though, I sat down and tried to figure out exactly how I thought magic would work - how long would a spell take, and how were they cast anyway? What were the metaphysical laws by which magic worked? And then I figured out how to get those laws and methods to be represented with the mechanic that I had developed. I know other games have used a similar mechanic (Totem and, to some degree, UnderWorld, comes to mind), but I think I'm the only one that has developed it into a workable system capable of certain level of complexity. If anyone knows of something similar, I'd love to hear about it.

Aidan

Quote from: taalynIt is easy! But I'm worried that the simple numerical progression means that the lower end would be too weak and the higher too strong. In order to have any chance of succeeding, the player would have to make sure to always balance high with low in adjacent colors. If red/strength was 1, magenta or amber had better be 7 to offset the balance, or you'll almost never succeed in those kinds of skills!

This seems to be true no matter what method you use. In order that a player have an idea of how much he's stacking a particular stat (and I assumed that stats a motes would be equal, personally), to the right of each stat have a box on the sheet into which the player can calculate the following formula: 2 x color + left color + right color = total proficiency. This way a player can see how much he's adding to one are or another. But as long as you allow for the points to be distributed as the player sees fit, some players will distriute widely, and others will stack.

The urge to stack, BTW, is quite strong. Most players understand two things about characters. One is that stacking up a stat is a good way to stand out from the crowd. There's always one player who'll want to have the "really strong" guy. And another who wants the extremely dexterous guy. The other thing that players understand is that having weaknesses is fun. A character that doesn't have any holes is less fun to play because they won't tend to be included in the action in negative ways.

Basically extreme characters are more fun to the average player.

The system you propose where the player can distribute in any fashion they like typically results in more radical characters than the system that I proposed. If you really want to kee players more in the center, then go with something more like 2/3/3/4/4/5/6 for a total of 27. For more flexibility, allow a player to drop one slot two levels to raise another by one. This allows some slanting at an overall reduction in effectiveness.

QuoteI don't think these questions define a narrative style, per se, but rather a particular kind of story unrelated to the GNS schema.

You've got the theory all tangled up. I'd suggest just dropping it until you've had a chance to read more about it.

QuoteIf anyone knows of something similar, I'd love to hear about it.

I think what you have is pretty unique. I had to go pretty far to think of Magic Realm. I look forward to seeing the final implementation. I keep getting this feeling that the game is like a really colorful version of Scott Knipe's Wyrd. You might want to check that out (there shouold be a link in the resources).

Mike

Hmmm...

What about scrapping the automatic contributions from adjacent colors (which doesn't really make much sense to me, except statistically) and allowing players to gain extra successes by narrating how they incorporate the other colors they have chosen into their action.

Quote from: AidanFor example, Sally wants her character Kayley to throw a plate at the cop entering the diner. This is a precision skill (as are most firearms), and her Throw Things skill is rated A4 (Amber, 4 motes), against a difficulty of 3. She draws 4 motes (aka tokens) and gets 2 red motes, an amber, and a blue. This is 4 successes (2 for the amber, and 1 each for the reds, nothing for the blue) - she hits the cop square in the face.

might become:

QuoteFor example, Sally wants her character Kayley to throw a plate at the cop entering the diner. This is a precision skill (as are most firearms), and her Throw Things skill is rated A4 (Amber, 4 motes), against a difficulty of 3. She draws 4 motes (aka tokens) and gets 2 red motes, an amber, and a blue. This is normally two successes, enough to hit the cop, but she wants to hit him well. She uses her two red motes to leap onto the table of the booth, positioning herself perfectly to hit him in the face. This gives her a total of four successes.

or something like that.

Oh, and I think that making the Caern equal to stats is a natural choice.

Stuart

I happen to think that Stuart's suggestion here is great.  I had thoughts on a similar thing with a game that I'm working on off-boards, Golden Crow...

Also, I can't believe that no one's mentioned Jared's game Color Wheel yet.  It's basically the naked bones of your mechanic, with an interesting implementation for the Black and White colours.

Interestingly, I think your mechanic is probabilistically similar to the TROS dice mechanic - in TROS, your skill sets a target number and your attribute sets a dicepool; here you have exactly the reverse... sort of.  The stones-in-a-bag thing is different from rolling dice, yes, but conceptually they feel related.

I look forward to seeing how your game turns out; non-dice randomization is one of my pet interests.

Hey Aidan,

I suspect we are working from very different ideas of how the game works. I would never consider firing a gun a defensive action. I just does not even make sense to me. I would say it is an aggressive action, but dodging would be a defensive action. Running away might be a movement action, taking the punishment might be an endurance action, etc. Any conflict can be broken down into parts so that you have skills/attributes and you have motes, but they are completely separate. Otherwise, I would just make everything draw from the same pool and make my caern very heavily stacked toward one color.

I see the start of dividing effectiveness into different pools, but as in D&D, certain types of characters are going to be inherently more focused than others. If you can live with it, great. Otherwise, it is shuffling time.

On the other hand, I see great things in the magic. It sounds like any magic worth using requires different components, so you have the double fun of building spells and building the caern. Honestly, if the game were just about dueling sorcerers, that would be enough to make a great game.

Later,
Grant