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From some thoughts that started out in my LiveJournal...

It seems that, in fantasy fiction/movies/television, the use of magic often (certainly not always) has a few features:

1. Magic use for trivial purposes rarely seems to require any exertion on the user of the magic. This is sometimes true even if that magic is really impressive.

2. Magic use is more difficult the more effective it is with respect to the central problem of the plot. Magic can do really impressive things. Sometimes something that seems less impressive, but would resolve the conflict of the story, is the thing that requires some special artifact or spell that needs to be found or researched... or is, for some reason, particularly taxing upon the user of the magic.

One thing I am toying with in order to recreate this feel is trying to model magic as a plot device useable by players. I think this is largely inspired by Adventure!'s rules for Dramatic Editing. Basically, the more impact upon the plot that magic has, the more difficult or costly it is to use it. Toasting extras with balls of eldritch flame may look cool, but it is pretty much equivalent to mowing them down with a conventional weapon. Performing a divination to find the bad guy's secret lair, however, might circumvent a lot of potential story and would, therefore, typically be much harder (unless this is something that, for instance, a few minutes of investigative work could have accomplished).

So, my question is... does anyone know of any games that treat magic this way?

Stuart

Hey Stuart,

To my knowledge, sadly the answer is no. For what it is worth, I completely agree with you. In games in which I possess narrative power, I have magic which works just like any other tool and magic which is just a plot device. Giving players explicit power to use magic as a plot device is a wonderful extension of the idea.

Later,
Grant

Well... Theatrix can treat magic this way, but only by dint of the fact that Theatrix can treat just about anything that way.  Here's the quick explanation:

Theatrix has Descriptors.  A Theatrix Descriptor is something like an advantage or disadvantage in other games -- in point of fact, it can be both.  Players in Theatrix have Plot Points.  A Plot Point can be spent through a Descriptor to do anything which that Descriptor would reasonably allow, and which has a real affect on the game.

Descriptors can also be used to add color, with no Plot Point expenditure necessary.

Lastly, a Descriptor can be used against the character by the GM.  If this happens, then the character gets a Plot Point in return for it.

So, to give an example, a character could have a "Fire Magic" descriptor.  If the character uses that to light a cigar while having a conversation, there's no charge for that -- it's just color.  If he uses it to produce flame to intimidate a foe into backing down, that costs a Plot Point.  If he uses it to put out a fire burning down a building, that's also a Plot Point.  If the GM decides to mess with him by having a fire-magic-sniffing demon come after him, that's using his Fire Magic against him, so that would give him a Plot Point.

This doesn't apply to just magic, though.  For example, someone could have "Rich" as a descriptor.  If the character decides to take the rest of the group out to dinner, or show off his new house, or something like that, that's just color, and it's free.  If, though, he wants to use his wealth to bribe a guard at a place where the characters need to get in, or buy expensive equipment that's going to be useful on adventures, those things would cost a plot point.

One bit which Theatrix has is that if a character reasonably should use a Descriptor they have to do something, but can't (due to a lack of Plot Points or not wanting to spend one), then the player has to come up with an explanation for why the character can't or won't... which then becomes part of the game.

--Travis

Huh.

That sounds remarkably like the bare-bones of the system I'm working on. I must check this game out.

Stuart

Quote from: szilardSo, my question is... does anyone know of any games that treat magic this way?

It's pretty short and sweet, but:

http://www.edromia.com/games/buffy/magic.html

Scroll down to the section titled "Cast It"; there's a handy chart for eyeballing how important the spell is and how hard, in FUDGE terms, it should be to cast.

Heh.

Not too surprising, actually. The way magic is treated on the show was a big impetus for me thinking of magic in this way...

Stuart

Stuart,

This is exactly what I hope to accomplish when I finish writing up "How Magic Works" for Dungeons & Demons. There's nothing in the other thread about it yet, but my plan was to treat actions accomplished with "magic" exactly as actions accomplished mundanely, so that magic works just like any other tool from a mechanical/effectiveness standpoint.

This should be unsurprising.

Technology on Star Trek is exaclty the same way. Note how the whenever the Transporters would make the solution to the plot too simple, they're out of commission, either damaged by sabotage or by the last attack, or impossible to use because of some sort of "interference".

Yeah, right...plot intererence.

On the show Charmed, they even have a BS explanation built in. The charmed ones can't use magic to benefit themselves or bad things happen. So, either they're always using their magic to forward the plot in terms of saving someone who needs it ("innocents"), or they're sucumbing to some plot-forwarding temptation to use their magic for sefish purposes.

Nevermind that their magic only seems to work at all when it's good for the plot. All quite convenient. If I were they, I'd have started to suspect that the "powers that be" were actually TV execs, and that I was a character on a TV show after about the first season.

As far as games that do this, um, Universalis? Since everything that happens is metagme driven, magic use is no exception. Hell, crossing the street only occurs because some player needs it to happen, much less large scale effects like magic.

But I see what you're talking about. A less metagame RPG in which magic is the metagame mechanic. And there's got to be one. But I can't come up with one off the top of my head. Nobilis? Hmmm.

Mike

Szilard, several of us involved with Adventure are going "damn, shoulda thought of that". You're onto something spiffy here.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm not sure if I'm happy that this is a relatively new idea or if I'm worried by the fact that I'm potentially treading on new ground here.

Now that the hard part is over, I suppose I should develop the system. Heh.

Stuart

Hello,

Some of the comments about magic in The Dying Earth: real pleasure and real pain might be of interest in this discussion. Also, for a blast from the past, see Magic systems and Magic systems 2 from the old Sorcerer mailing list in 1998 or so.

Best,
Ron

That is definitely handy stuff, Ron. Thanks.