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I've lurked a bit, and thought I might as well jump in to have my own game torn apart before feeling qualified for commenting on the others(you are all usually rather thorough).  I've been on hiatus from development for a bit, but have been running the game, and in preperation for a major revision, thought now would be the time for extra comments.

The Game

Link: http://www.greylotus.org

Yet another Fantasy game.  However, I've tried to avoid some stereotypes(note the absence of 'elves' as a species, for example) and used others, such as the ancient Magi War in the past.  The setting is intended to be middle-fantasy, with magic relatively common, but magic items rare and valued.  Parts of it have a Celtic bent... I know at least one on this board knows quite a bit about that, and I wouldn't mind any obvious errors plucked out, but it isn't supposed to be exact.

System

The system is under revision, after being played for quite some time with my friends.  It's a skill-based system, though it does have an XR(basically a 'level') which is used mainly to keep track of how experienced characters are.  More of a guide than anything else, as the experience is spent as it is acquired.  The tentative Game Mechanics for the new version has been posted.

As I said, feel free to tear it apart, and tell me what you do like.  I'll be around, and thanks in advance for any commentary I do get.

Hi Andrew,

Welcome to the Forge.

What do you want torn apart particularly?

The idea behind the game seems to be about some sort of universal war between the forces of Gaia, and those who seek to destroy it. Pretty straightforward. So, do you see it as just a string of battles between the characters and forces of Fate, or is there something else you have envisioned for play that the text isn't getting across?

I'll mention a couple of problems that stood out. Critical misses seem to be rare to the point of vanishing.

Skill
0   1.9%
1   1.0%
2   0.1%
3   0.01%
4   0.001%

You're just not likely to see one.

You have what I call the "Great Race" fallacy going. Which is that "better" races cost more points, and as such will actually become characters who are balanced by making them bad in other ways. Thus, starting members of better races will seem to be poor examples of their kind.

Why are all the races so constrained in available height. Human males are only from 5' 4" to 5' 10" tall?

I do like the short Trolls, tho.

The systems seem pretty standard. Even the complicated Magic system strikes me as a combination of a number of other systems.

What do you see as your goal with this system? I noted the open license.

Mike

I agree with Mike. I'm sure it works fine, but there wasn't anything there to get my attention.

I did notice that your explanation of the mechanic is rather vague. Nowhere do you state what kind of dice you're rolling, how many, what the target is, or so on. Examples do flesh these issues out, but it's best (IMHO) to state them explicitly.

As a Celticist, I'd be happy to look at your Celtic things, but if you'd let me know what specifically you wnat a critical eye on, that would help. 110 pages is a lot to go through looking for what someone else might consider a Celtic bent! ;)

Aidan

These impressions are just what I was asking for.  So, let's see...

QuoteThe idea behind the game seems to be about some sort of universal war between the forces of Gaia, and those who seek to destroy it. Pretty straightforward. So, do you see it as just a string of battles between the characters and forces of Fate, or is there something else you have envisioned for play that the text isn't getting across?

Hmm... I hadn't considered that it would be so vague.  While the whole Gaia versus Fate thing is one aspect of the setting, it isn't intended to be focused on... unless the players want that.  I should clarify the type of game this is designed for.  *makes note*

QuoteI'll mention a couple of problems that stood out. Critical misses seem to be rare to the point of vanishing.

Agreed.  And with the Version 1 rules, Critical hits at high skill levels are too common.  Version 2 at the moment has neither Critical Misses or Critical Hits, but if I add them in, Critical Hits should be more rare, and I'll work on making Misses more common at high skill levels.  This is a known problem, but it's nice to see I'm not the only one who thinks it is a problem.

QuoteYou have what I call the "Great Race" fallacy going. Which is that "better" races cost more points, and as such will actually become characters who are balanced by making them bad in other ways. Thus, starting members of better races will seem to be poor examples of their kind.

I hadn't taken that into consideration.  I'll think about ways to fix that, and any suggestions are welcome.

QuoteWhy are all the races so constrained in available height. Human males are only from 5' 4" to 5' 10" tall?

I do like the short Trolls, tho.

Firstly, height in medieval times was a bit below modern, and this is a medieval-type game.  Secondly, those are intended as simple guidelines, not strict rules.  I'll clarify that at some point.  Thanks.

And the Trolls were from one of the many conflicting Troll legends... a lot had them as large and brutish, but I used one of the rarer ones.  Another difference is in the Kobolds... which are True Faeries, and not to be trifled with ;)

QuoteThe systems seem pretty standard. Even the complicated Magic system strikes me as a combination of a number of other systems.

What do you see as your goal with this system? I noted the open license.

The systems aren't meant to be overly complicated, though the Aptitude/Scale thing seems to cause confusion, so I'm getting rid of it for Version 2.  I can't point at any one thing and say 'This makes the game unique.'  Rather, my goal was to make a Fantasy game that played the way I wanted, without any preconceptions, and is hopefully unique as a whole, and useful to another.  I made it Open License on suggestion from a friend, as I thought others might want to use it, and I have no need to try selling it.

QuoteI did notice that your explanation of the mechanic is rather vague. Nowhere do you state what kind of dice you're rolling, how many, what the target is, or so on. Examples do flesh these issues out, but it's best (IMHO) to state them explicitly.

Noted, and I'll attempt to fix that.  As I said before, there's no big huge innovation in much of this, I just think that these systems work together, and as a whole make a decent game.  I sort of like my Magic system, but the idea of component-based magic was far from new even when I first designed it.

QuoteAs a Celticist, I'd be happy to look at your Celtic things, but if you'd let me know what specifically you wnat a critical eye on, that would help. 110 pages is a lot to go through looking for what someone else might consider a Celtic bent! ;)

Oh, the Gaelic names of some things, in the Magic system, and Advantages... truthfully, a lot of the Celtic stuff I held until I'd done more work on the Faerie, but that's not posted.  I was just hoping there weren't any major 'oopses' in there!

Well, being a fan of invented languages, particularly celticky sorts of langs, unless you want absolute accuracy and direct correspondence (which the fantasy flavor inclines me to think "nope"), it doesn't really matter. In my cursory lookthrough, I didn't notice anything particularly wacky, anyway. It helps too that you don't say outright "this is Irish" or "This is Welsh" or even "this is Gaelic"!

Aidan

Quote from: HamshrewHmm... I hadn't considered that it would be so vague.  While the whole Gaia versus Fate thing is one aspect of the setting, it isn't intended to be focused on... unless the players want that.  I should clarify the type of game this is designed for.  *makes note*

Hey, youo could let us in, too. :-)

What I'm getting at, mostly, is that there doesn't seem to be much to suggest using the game, particularly.

QuoteAnd with the Version 1 rules, Critical hits at high skill levels are too common.  Version 2 at the moment has neither Critical Misses or Critical Hits, but if I add them in, Critical Hits should be more rare, and I'll work on making Misses more common at high skill levels.  This is a known problem, but it's nice to see I'm not the only one who thinks it is a problem.

QuoteAre you sure you need criticals at all? Have you considered just applying the margin system across the board?

QuoteFirstly, height in medieval times was a bit below modern, and this is a medieval-type game.  Secondly, those are intended as simple guidelines, not strict rules.  I'll clarify that at some point.  Thanks.

Hmmm. Real world realism in a fantasy game? Tolkein's humans were huge. As are most in legend, etc. Why would real world medieval heights make any particular sense, here?

Why is precise height so important at all?

QuoteRather, my goal was to make a Fantasy game that played the way I wanted, without any preconceptions, and is hopefully unique as a whole, and useful to another.  I made it Open License on suggestion from a friend, as I thought others might want to use it, and I have no need to try selling it.

But you do want it "unique as a whole, and useful to another." Hmmm. So, it's gotta be worth at least the time to download and read. What sort of GM do you think would want to use your system?

You said, you'd lurked for a bit? How long? Did you read the post about Mirima Tyalie recently? What separates your game from it, for instance? Or would you be OK with competing with such games?

QuoteI did notice that your explanation of the mechanic is rather vague. Nowhere do you state what kind of dice you're rolling, how many, what the target is, or so on. Examples do flesh these issues out, but it's best (IMHO) to state them explicitly.

Actually, Taalyn, it's d10, and roll against a target from a chart, or opponents' skill + scale. I got that from the rules directly.

Mike

Andrew, have you checked out Peregrine's Wayfarer's Song with a norse/celtic bent? Just to see what's been done in the same vein.

I'm going to echo the others in telling you I don't see anything new here, the rules seem to a large extent be derived from other games?

To my eyes they also seem too complicated. Take combat for example. Well detailed with moves and so on, but if the basic system already is complex it's gonna be a pain learning that AND the system for moves on top of that. Aren't there better ways to reach the desired end-result (for example detailed combat moves) in a way that doesn't require intermediary steps or detail that doesn't add to the end-result?
Building on top of existing systems it's very easy for us to add things "for completeness" that doesn't really need to be there.

But before we go anywhere further maybe you could clarify if the system is a vehicle for your interesting setting or if it's supposed to be the other way around?

/"Working on my heartbreaker" Christoffer

What in the bloody name of the Pedestrian God are you doing naming a celto-medieval fantasy game Grey Lotus for?

Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

In explanation, you're in violation of Shreyas's Truth of Words: Every word must mean something.  That goes triple for titles.  So, what are you getting at with "Grey Lotus"?  I see, looking at that title, a sort of apocalyptic neo-Buddhist vision of a world; a World of Dust.  I see spiritual hopelessness and the fading of the holy and mighty.  I certainly don't see very short men and assorted Celtic mythology.  I am jarred.

I disagree with Christoffer that it's too complicated. But I would say that it definitely does have a strong emphasis on combat. I was actaully thinking that this was one of the better features of the game. That is, it seems to me to be a little like some video game version of some Celtic Mythology. All about the power ups, and eventually sweeping away the forces of darkness.

Is that what you intended?

Mike

Mike is probably right about the complexity. Being "too complicated" is about personal preference to large extent and I guess I've grown a low tolerance to it. View my posting in that light.

About using the game/intentions:

Mike's assessment is mostly correct... the game is intended for the combat, at least, to have the 'feel' of a video-game style RPG, or an anime a la Rouroni Kenshin, with the stylized techniques.  However, I also like having the option to do political scheming, more character development, etc.  I just like the epic feel of console RPGs, but don't want to get too 'far out' and have the players going god-hunting... just have them notable figures of legend.

About Criticals:

I have indeed considered going without Criticals in Version 2.  Unfortunately, highly-skilled characters almost never roll low in the current system, and even their 'low rolls' are mediocre results.  I'm working on that.

Height:

Good point about the real-world stuff in a legendary game, that's another inconsistency.  As for why it's important, it's just one of those things that bugs me when we're supposed to guess.  Chalk that one up to personal preference.

Type of GM and Mirima Tyalie:

The creator of Mirima Tyalie plays Grey Lotus, actually, and is how I found this board.  We don't seem to feel there's a conflict or competition, as MT is very much a 'meta-system' and Grey Lotus is more tuned to the fantasy world I designed it for.  As for type of GM... my target here is those dissatisfied with D&D as one group, but also wanting something less complicated than, say, Rolemaster(I share Lee's distaste for excessive charts) but more in-depth than, for example, BESM.  There may well be a game out there that fulfills this better, but I haven't encountered one that I liked.

I should also note that much of the original design work was done when my source of RPGs was Waldenbooks, so I 'reinvented the wheel' in some areas.  By the time I learned better, the game was already being played by my friends, and I didn't want to just toss what I had.  I do have a few (mostly) original ideas laying around, and the point of this exercise is to see what may need replaced, since I'm in the middle of a major rewrite anyway.

QuoteAndrew, have you checked out Peregrine's Wayfarer's Song with a norse/celtic bent? Just to see what's been done in the same vein.

No.  But since you pointed it out, I will... another thing I'm looking for is anything I missed.  I likes me Kurr'd-ah invasion, though :)

About being Complicated:

I agree that it's a tad bit too complicated.  Scale is being ditched in Version 2, as is the 3 Phase/Round thing and the artificial 1 Technique per Round restriction.  Where else is it too complicated?

QuoteWhat in the bloody name of the Pedestrian God are you doing naming a celto-medieval fantasy game Grey Lotus for?

I explained where I got the name in the FAQ, but the deeper answer is that I suck at naming games.  I should probably come up with something related to the war on the Kurr'd-ah or something epic... given the video game feel, a pretentious name like "Final Fantasy" would be good, though obviously that one is taken.  It would better convey what I'm trying to hit with the game as well.  You're the first person to complain about the name, but I've always thought it a weakness of mine.

This wasn't intended to 'build on top of existing systems'... I haven't seen a single system that's very close to this, though there are shared aspects with many games.  If I wanted to enhance a system, I'd just use TORG, which I have a fondness for... though I oddly draw very little from it for Grey Lotus.  Still, I suppose this is something of the 'heartbreaker' referred to in Ron's articles.  The main point of they system is to work with the setting, not to be a meta-system or 'wow' anyone with the mechanics.

Oh, and this is all helping immensely.  I may seem quick to defend my design decisions, but that doesn't mean I won't change them.  I just want to provide my rationale.

I thought there might be a chance that you knew Lee. The license thing seemed too coincidental. How do you know each other? Are you guys from RPGCreate or something?

Anyhow, let's look at what you have relative to where you want to go. First, you've got some focus, but you seem to be non-commital. You say it emulates console RPGs, but then that you want for it to do other stuff as well. Well, with what you've got, colorful video game violence is the only thing that I see supported. I'd suggest one of two routs. Either just devote yourself to the console emulation concept, or figure out how to expand the rules to cover other areas effectively.

Also, your system, while colorful, follows the D&D paradigm too closely. The only saving grace in this is that console RPGs do too. But you have a chance to break that mold, and I'd suggest going for it a bit. At the very least, emulate the most advanced designs out there. For example, I found the skill map from FF X to be pretty neat. Perhaps you could go off in some direction like that. Adding whole regions that specialize in those other areas that you want the game to be about.

These are different media, so you're going to also have to figure out how to capitalize on the advntages of the tabletop medium and negate it's disadvantages. For example, while your descriptions are pretty cool in terms of background, how does that affect play? Once purchased, Madieran Blade Way ceases to be important, and only the underlying mechanics matter. But these are the same from one style to another, with slight alterations in what particular maneuvers are to be had. Other than in developing the character, how do you get this color into play? In a video game, we see it in action. You have to figure out a way to get it into the descriptions, or combat will be pretty straightforward.

BTW, you may want to look at The Riddle of Steel (the forum is on the Indie Page here). That game seems to have some similarities in terms of what sort of maneuvers are available.

As for the setting, well, you've got very little so far. Some color in terms of the martial traditions of each nation, but the nation descriptions are very typical. I went to read the Canyon of the Moon, thinking that it would be particularly neato, and all I got was:

Thought to be dangerous for a long time.
Then discovered to be home of the Taysen.
Some details about the Taysen, all of which were available in the section on Taysen.

Basically your setting boils down to non-standard Fantasy + aliens.

www.jorune.org

This concept has been done quite a bit, and the example above is hard to beat. Note that it is out of business, however.

You've got a huge uphill battle ahead of you. You need to make the rules distictive, and make the setting a lot grabbier. Synthesizing these two things will be key. The system should drive the setting priorities, I think.

Where do you think the problem areas are in your re-write?

Mike

I had a chance to buy Jorune a few years back, and didn't have any money... thanks for that link.

Lee went to college with me, so he's in my tabletop group... anyway, on to the game...

Follows the D&D paradigm, you say?  I'm not sure exactly what you mean... other than the fact that the players get stronger as they get experienced.  This only makes sense, as that's the type of game I like... however, the increase in strength doesn't have to come in the form of combat ability.  Perhaps that is a bit TOO emphasized... but you do present an interesting idea.  I've already got a few ideas tossing around that could prove interesting.  I'll have to play with them, and see if I can keep the game simple while putting them in.

I agree about the styles, and the way Combat Styles are handled has been a minor complaint for a while.  I'd intended to do some revision already, emphasizing the 'style bonuses' and de-emphasizing the differences in the lists of Techniques between them, aside from unique Techniques(such as Ryantran's Mirror Slice).  I think you're suggesting adding some 'flair' to the Styles, and that's difficult to do, but an excellent idea.  Noted and being worked on.

QuoteAs for the setting, well, you've got very little so far. Some color in terms of the martial traditions of each nation, but the nation descriptions are very typical.

Yup, some will be, and even the more detailed ones are lacking.  I know this, even though I've got more in my notes.  I run into the problem of how much to give players, and how much 'secret' information to give.  So I kept the descriptions fairly simple for that reason, but intended to flesh them out further... only I had a brief hiatus and haven't done so yet.  You'll notice the Bestiary, for example, is equally sparse.  I've got a slew of material to add to both the nation histories, and on economics and religion, two areas I feel I'm weak in.  I'd also like to emphasize some of the less often seen aspects of the setting, such as the Kapinstar(the moon's moon), and such, giving them more prominence without throwing it in the reader's face.

QuoteYou've got a huge uphill battle ahead of you. You need to make the rules distictive, and make the setting a lot grabbier. Synthesizing these two things will be key. The system should drive the setting priorities, I think.

Where do you think the problem areas are in your re-write?

Actually, my biggest concern is converting the playtest characters of my players ;)  Not your concern.  Aside from that, most of my efforts are focussed on streamlining play, such as getting rid of fractional DM.  Tossing around these ideas, I suppose I should point out what I DO want in my system, then I'll adress the setting comments.

A damage system that doesn't rely on 'hit points' and which relies on the user's skill to provide most of the damage.  Weapons in Version 2 WILL have less difference in their damage values, and more in their 'special abilities.'  This isn't unique, I know.

A flexible, but fairly well-defined component-based Magic system.  BESM's is too simple and wide open... so is Mage's, though it works for that particular game.  Wheel of Time d20 is too strict, though usable for d20... this should give an idea of my preferences.

My Wound system is actually a little more rigid than I'd like... I'm trying to get a system where the player isn't certain if they can 'take another hit like that' or some such.  Heavy Gear has a similar system to mine in some ways, that I think gets a little closer, but... well, I'm working on it.

Techniques, of course, as you've noticed.

Wide variety of character creation options.  The whole 'priority system' is being done away with for a more standard but easier point-based system... with the new attribute system, I think I can keep it from being too easily abused.

[/list:u]

As you can see, the system itself doesn't need to be anything spectacular... just very well-integrated with the setting.  TORG was a good example of this, as is the 'La Famiglia' game below, so I'll try to concentrate on the whole 'dramatic' thing.  So, some ideas I've tried with other systems I've toyed with...



Personalized combat styles.  Perhaps each character has a certain special 'flair' they can add to their maneuvers, determined at character creation, and advanced as their skill advances?  Unfortunately, this would make the game VERY combat-centric, and leave players who like doing social situations in the cold unless a similar system could be used.

A changing 'condition' that is determined randomly, giving bonuses to certain actions in a round.  TORG already does this, after a fashion, though I'm thinking more along the lines of Xenosaga's stuff.

I've always liked 'Advance skills as you use them' systems.  But that isn't exactly new.

Drama dice or tokens when in a conflict, combat or social, between Gaia and Fate.  Perhaps allowing greater margins of success, but at the cost of greater risk.
[/list:u]

As for the setting, I've barely touched on the Taysen, Kurr'd-ah, Faheal, and Faeries in the online edition.  Typing all this stuff up takes time... it's fairly developed, in my opinion, but perhaps I should 'focus' it more.

Quote from: Mike HolmesYou said, you'd lurked for a bit? How long? Did you read the post about Mirima Tyalie recently? What separates your game from it, for instance? Or would you be OK with competing with such games?

Hehe.  Actually, we live in the same town.  MT's magic system is a watered down version of Ghost's.

I don't see any competition aspect at least in the free market sense, due to the free nature of both games.  Any competition on the "I will make my game better than yours" sense can only lead to the betterment of both games.  But I see grey lotus and the (eventual rewrite of) MT serving two different purposes, and as a result don't see any of the latter competition either.

Quote from: HamshrewI have indeed considered going without Criticals in Version 2.  Unfortunately, highly-skilled characters almost never roll low in the current system, and even their 'low rolls' are mediocre results.  I'm working on that.

I think that may be hard to fix with the "roll X dice take highest" mechanic.  I've said already, I don't think critical hits are needed because of the exploding dice.  Perhaps the same exploding mechanic could be used for botches.  Only problem is, then higher skilled characters have a _greater_ chance of failing.  Well, maybe not, because perhaps it would be balanced out by the fact that they have an equally better chance of getting exploding dice.  It would pull everything back towards the middle, and you might lose some epicness.  If I find myself with nothing to do later tonight perhaps I shall model it.....

But then we get into omg omg I add +1 for all these X 10s and -1 for all of these Y 1s and and...  Where was I?  Oh shit, I forgot my total, hold on a sec...  

Hopefully removing the fractional DMs will help to curb this, but I still see it happening to some extent.  Then again I lose my cigarettes every 5 minutes, so maybe it's just me.