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I'm trying to design a magic system for a setting that I'm basing around the Icelandic Sagas (mytho-historical viking setting based on primary medieval source material).  To keep magic "realistic" and subtle, I'm planning on designing some sort of exhaustion/strain based magic system, staying away from "spells per level," "power points" and "spell lists."  I'm thinking something along the lines of Shadowrun.  I hear that the new LOTR game has an exhaustion based magic, but I haven't got my hands on it yet.

Any suggestions?  What are some good models to look at, what are things being worked on out there?  Alternatively, any RPG magic theory alternatives would be great.  I'm looking for flexible, quick, organic, and intuitive - no fireball flinging mages, no page flipping.

It's not exhaustion based, but The Riddle of Steel's magic system is "flexible, quick, organic, and intuitive - no fireball flinging mages, no page flipping." once you've got the hang of it. As a matter of fact, as you've not specified a system that you're using for the setting, might I recommend The Riddle of Steel as an excellent system for doing historical medieval fantasy settings? If you're interested, check out the forum here on the Forge, and the website at theriddleofsteel.net

I'll check it out.  I tentatively began basing my game around the generic d20 system, but my life-long hatred of D&D's magic was what started me brainstorming on my own.  Then I did away with classes, so right now I have a heavily modified d20 - character's use "points" to create a "base class" (attack/save tables, hit die, class skills, etc.), and the magic is all new.  Currently its looking more like an original game than d20.  A few more revisions, and I might post some initial drafts.

If you're using a modified D&D systm, you might want to consider having the caster spend hitpoints for a simple system, or have it cause submission damage if you don't mind keeping track of something extra.

As for how to define spells - it depends.  The advantage of the basic D&D system (choose from list) is that it gives the impression of spells being pieces of arcane lore learned by rote and passed down from wizard to wizard. Spells all premade and prechecked for balance/abuse issues.  Disadvantage: No freeform spells.

There's the effects based systems such as Hero (complicated) or Big Eyes Small mouth (Not quite so complicated) where what's important is what the spell ends up doing, rather than how it does it.  In these systems you piece together the spell by going through a big list of effects and applying modifiers to them.  Advantages: Very flexible but little 'fudging' involved.  Spells are as balanced as is possible without Gm fiat.  Disadvantages: Either lots of book flipping during play, or player creates a set of stock spells which is just D&D spells all over:

Finally method based where how the spell does its thang is more important than what it does.  Eg: Ars Magica, Donjon and Mage: The ascension - which is a more evolved (though not necessarily better) version of that system.  Spells are defined in terms of what abilities you'd need to cast them and as long as you can piece together your character's spell abilities in the right way, you can do anything thematically appropriate.  Advantages: Very freeform, gives individual mages their own unique flavour.  Disadvantages: Relatively little to insure game balance and requires quite a few Gm calls.

Finally, there's the 'Wizard' systems, where any mage can do anything and they just roll the dice for it against how difficult the GM thinks it is.  (sorry, I can't think of any examples right now for some reason.
Advantages: The simplest of the systems and alows for the most creativity.  Disadvantages: Requires a lot of player/Gm trust and has a very bland flavour.

There's probably more that I can't thinj of right now, but I hope these are some use.

(Edited because i forgot to mention the total freeform type)

I would not reccomend Shadowrun as a model, It uses a 'save vs consequences'  model,
i.e. magic has a chance of causing exhaustion, so generally a players knows if a spell will
cause strain, so minor magic becomes common, but major magic is still rare. I.e. charachters are build to absorb minor strain with no problem. Ars Magica is a bit similar in this respect, If your good enough, you can cast a spell all day.

If you go with 'all magic' causes exhaustion you end up with the DnD effect. (Cast my X spells for today, I'm done).  I'd say the solution is that mages have other abilities, i.e. the can still do something usefull without out it.

Can you give a better idea what your looking for?

Quote from: ChrisI'm trying to design a magic system for a setting that I'm basing around the Icelandic Sagas (mytho-historical viking setting based on primary medieval source material).  To keep magic "realistic" and subtle, I'm planning on designing some sort of exhaustion/strain based magic system, staying away from "spells per level," "power points" and "spell lists."

Any suggestions?  What are some good models to look at, what are things being worked on out there?  Alternatively, any RPG magic theory alternatives would be great.  I'm looking for flexible, quick, organic, and intuitive - no fireball flinging mages, no page flipping.

OK, I'm going to jump in here a bit, because I am running a campaign based on the Icelandic sagas as well.  Magic is pretty solidly in the "realistic" and "subtle" realm, but it isn't exhaustion-based.  It isn't a fully developed system at this point, though.  Much of the magic development has been focussed on how well my one magical PC (Silksif) is working, and what would make her more interesting and workable.  

For the most part magic simply works.  Simple charms and spirit blessings can just be used at will.   (Incidentally, this is part of my complaint with what I call "scientific" magic systems -- that they simply assume that magic requires energy. cf. my article below on magic).  Journeys to the spirit world are tiring: I have limited it by saying that one hour in the spirit realm is equivalent to four hours of physical activity.  However, the limit has not in practice been very important, and we haven't been using fatigue points at all in my game.  

My system is at present based on a list of spirit types and rituals.  However, there is no page-flipping because the list is short.  Rituals and spirits are powerful.  Simply being initiated as a gydja or buowin (i.e. a shamanic tradition) inherently gives you significant power, such as the ability to talk to the spirits including the recently dead.  While generalizing it away from the lists of rituals would be neat, my first priority is staying true to the sagas.  

I don't have coherent plans for what I want to do with this system at present.  What I have been doing has mostly evolved from the needs of my campaign.   I am using a simplified version of RuneQuest, though obviously I have tossed essentially all of the magic and put in my own.  If you are interested, maybe we could collaborate on making a real system?  Anyhow, check out the links below:

http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/vinland/magic/

http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/magic/

I can't REALLY define more of what I'm looking for, because I'm still working on the basic concept - if you've read Volsunga Saga, Njals Saga, Hrolfs Saga Kraki, Gisli Saga, etc. you'd sort of know the feel if was going for.  I actually AM going for the "small magic common, big magic rare" effect that Shadowrun has, though it isn't the system I want to ultimately base it on.

QuoteFor the most part magic simply works. Simple charms and spirit blessings can just be used at will. (Incidentally, this is part of my complaint with what I call "scientific" magic systems -- that they simply assume that magic requires energy

John, I'm interested in what you're doing - I'm having a hard time finding a system that manages to have magic a common, every day element of life without the Fireball mage cropping up.  Superstition, leaving out food for the fairies and hildafolk (elves), trolls, crazy seers from Lappland and Greenland, wards against the evil eye, runes of protection, ships dedicated to Thor, Christians wielding a crucifix as a weapon - all these should be nearly daily, without merely being cultural; they are real.  When Egil Skallagrimson carved his runes to curse his enemy King Erik Blood-Axe, he didn't spent power-points, summon anything, and tap into ethereal forces of the unknown.  How do you limit a magicians power?  

I began developing runes as an entirely seperate system, and have something that seems workable - runes are very labor intensive and difficult to 'obtain'; many know the futhark alphabet, few can harness the power of a few runes, and very few can carve complex bind-runes to create the swords that Sigurd and Sigfried caried.  Characters have to obtain runes through ordeal and suffering (as did Odin, who hung upon the world tree for nine days and nights), and so only slowly learn more.  I like the idea of sacrifice for magical power (I'm interested in Riddle of Steel's aging penalty), but a player can make sacrifices that no character might - few "real" people are willing to give up all human relations and comfort for the power of magic, but a player can shrug and say "sure, torture me and fill me with knowledge."  But then I suppose any system can be screwed that isn't used as a collaboration between players and GM to create an enjoyable game.  

I'm thinking of even just going for a diceless, Everway/Amber approach, modified to fit the setting - magic just IS, and the players and I can figure our what their players can do.  Ah, my eternal conflict - I love the tables of Rolemaster, yet yearn for the freedom of Everway.  I suppose my best games were when I ran Rolemaster virtually diceless. . .

Hi Chris,

Sounds to me like a broader perspective on role-playing magic is what's needed.

Are you familiar with the following (all very different) systems?

- RuneQuest
- Fantasy Hero (Hero System / Champions)
- Tunnels & Trolls
- GURPS

All of them use (or potentially use) some form of exhaustion or strain relative to magic use. In some of them, it's a highly strategic resource-issue; in others, it's a physics-of-magic issue.

[Folks, the various editions of Ars Magica present very different approaches to magic, and I am not intimately familiar with which is which; my edition is a very early one. Can anyone help re: this game, in terms of the role of exhaustion/strain?]

For an extremely different approach to magic in play, and one which is very heavily influenced by precisely the sources you're citing, see Hero Wars, or its soon-to-be-released derived form, Hero Quest. The nice thing about this system is that fatigue can be invoked as an explanation for a variety of negative outcomes, without having to be tracked until its effects hit.

Best,
Ron

I was just telling a friend of mine that the Hero/Champios system was one of the few major ones that I'd never read. . .  I'm not a huge GURPS fan (the same tired refrain - "great ideas, but . . ." "I love the source books").  

As for Hero's Quest, I ASSUME you don't mean the board game that I spent most of junior-high playing where players move generic archetypes through endless levels of of altering dungeons, killing random ors and goblins and amassing treasure for no apparent purpose?

I do want to continue the magic discussion, but I've also started a general discussion on historical/saga based camapigning at http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=6247.

Sovereign Stone (then old one, not the d20 version) has fatigue based magic. Specifically, every spell has a target number that you have to beat in order for the spell to go off. You can take as many rolls as you need to beat the target number - they add up - but rerolls do stun damage. And there's also the potential to botch. A serious botch can result in unconcsiousness, the spell going wild, etc.

That being said, though, are you sure that "fatigue based magic" is really appropriate for an icelandic viking saga style game? I've never noticed fatigue being particularly important in any of the literature. It's all about arcane knowledge, constructing charms, casting runes, etc. Such magic is very craftsman-like, more like Celebrimbor forging the Rings of Power than Gandalf shooting off his fireworks.

QuoteThat being said, though, are you sure that "fatigue based magic" is really appropriate for an icelandic viking saga style game? I've never noticed fatigue being particularly important in any of the literature.

Yeah, I'd begun thinking the same thing.  I guess I just jumped at it as it seems like a natural way to balance power versus abuse, but it doesn't really have a saga feel.  There is, when it comes down it, actually very little overt magic in the sagas - its more swords and rings (in the fornaldasagas, like Volsunga) or arcane witchs and seers (in the islindingur sagas, like Njal).  There isn't a system to it, which is why i'm thinking simply making it individual character/GM developed - you CAN'T have a "First Level Wizard" because no one gets the arcane power of the Lapp warlocks until they are older.  And runes are more skill based - you can either carve them or you can't.  Which is how I've been developing them, but magic is still a sticking point for me.  Now all I need is $50,000 to buy all the systems people suggest I read . . . :)

Quote from: Ron Edwards
[Folks, the various editions of Ars Magica present very different approaches to magic, and I am not intimately familiar with which is which; my edition is a very early one. Can anyone help re: this game, in terms of the role of exhaustion/strain?]

Actually the central spell-casting system has remained more or less exactly the same across all four editions.  It is primarily labwork and the incidental (and sometimes important) role of associated skills that have altered over editions.  [Black with crappy picture in read circle is first, purple is second, fat black with gold scrollwork is third, and reddish-green with all sorts of detail is fourth]

But as a simple outline, spell-casting (as opposed to using and constructing magic items) comes in two flavours:

Formulaic--a known spell (you'll start with of about ten or so), which is cast with your full total and only causes fatigue if you can't match the level with total plus a die, and fails and fatigues if you miss by more than ten.  The result: spells with a level up to about your total you can pretty much cast all day.  Then there is a small group of spells of slightly higher level which you can cast for a while but reliably; then another small group of spells which you can sometimes cast and almost always fatigue with; finally, spells which, if you somehow learnt them, you couldn't cast at all without tricky preparations or expending resources.

Spontaneous--Entirely freeform spells which you do not have to memorize.  Describe the arts you are using and what you want, roll and add, and either:
i) Divide by two and fatigue.
or
ii) Divide by five and don't fatigue.

The result of this is that you can manage minor spells of all sorts if you are willing to take fatigue.  Can manage medium-ish spells in you areas of speciality, ditto.  And can only manage spontaneous spells without fatigue that do anything worthwhile in areas that you are any good at.

All of which isn't particularly useful to you at all.  

If you were to use Ars Magica for your game, and you could (Rune's combat system comes almost directly from ArM, so there are ways in which it would fit), you'd want to use their rules for hedge magic, based upon Virtues (which means Advantages, as in Advantages and Flaws), thus having some characters who have little magical abilities, Alchemy, Visions and that sort of thing, and save the Magi for use as powerful sorcerors.

But really, Ars Magica is all about the magic system, so I'd choose something else.  

The one question that thing that the system does bring up, however, that you might want to think about is the issue of how easy it is to perceive magic.  Ars Magica differs very significantly from Mage in that it makes it very difficult unless you are a powerful, specialized magician to tell if magic is being used unless you can see the person waving their hands and chanting as they cast the spell.  Well, or unless the effect is obvious.

My question is, you want people to engage in everyday small luck charms, rune carvings, signs to avoid the evil eye, but how much of this is real and how much is superstition?  

If the players don't know which is which most of the time, but know _some_ of it works, then you can have magic that works without worrying about accounting for the 27 amulets Thorgild is wearing.  

Otherwise, I'd second the suggestion that you go look at Hero Wars/Quest.

Piers

QuoteMy question is, you want people to engage in everyday small luck charms, rune carvings, signs to avoid the evil eye, but how much of this is real and how much is superstition?

Thats what I'm still trying to decide.  I'm starting to think of going with a free-form just fudge it approach - no mages, magis fits into the plot, and characters can talk to me about what they want to do, create, find, etc.  

But I'm still interesting in exploring the exhaustion based magic, even if it ISN't what I need - I always liked shadowrun's "fry your mind, fry your mind too much you start loosing hits."  What sort of trade off for power's are there?  The normal D&D mage just gives up armor, hit points, and fighting ability (and any chance of having an intersting magic system, but then thats just my low blow to D&D), RoS ages you (which I'm finding increasingly interesting), and Sorcery has the Humanity, which I like a lot (but then I'd just read the thing, and when I joined this Forum I found out its THE game to name-drop).  My lunch hour is ending, but I'm interested in "The Prices We Pay for Arcane Powers"

Quote from: ChrisSuperstition, leaving out food for the fairies and hildafolk (elves), trolls, crazy seers from Lappland and Greenland, wards against the evil eye, runes of protection, ships dedicated to Thor, Christians wielding a crucifix as a weapon - all these should be nearly daily, without merely being cultural; they are real.  When Egil Skallagrimson carved his runes to curse his enemy King Erik Blood-Axe, he didn't spent power-points, summon anything, and tap into ethereal forces of the unknown.  How do you limit a magicians power?

Sorry to go so far back in the thread, but it strikes me that you might be thinking of two different types of magic, especially when you said you wanted "small magic common, big magic rare." The things you mention in the above qute could all fit under a "Hearth Magic" or "Ritual" ability, with the actual Eldritch Force Conjuring/Ethereal Forces of the Unknown Tapping done through a different ability. The Hearth stuff might not have as detrimental a penalty, if any, while the other stuff could have a big cost.

It seems like you almost have two magic systems in mind--one dealing with "real"  things, and another that shapes some form of mystical force. After all, in this setting, dedicating a ship to Thor might be the "technological" equivalent of putting barding on a horse.

To put minor magics in perspective, I often consider the fact that a traffic light could be seen as a minor ward--very few will pass the line established by a red light, and the moment you do, there's usually an intense feeling of guilt and paranoia involved. Traffic lights are mundane these days, so a similar effect might have been just as mundane back in The Day--and if so, there may be no need to consider it "magic."

Chris,

I'm currently working on the same sort of thing (d20-based homebrewery) and have elected to use the Vitality/Wounds option for our system.  

The magic rules i'm still mulling over currently cost the caster Vitality points.  (something along the lines of 1 point/level of the spell cast.) i know Thomas mentioned the idea of spending HP previously, but figured i'd toss in my 2-cents as well.

-k