The Forge Archives

I start this post with a couple of things.  First: Yes, I'm addicted to Star Wars.  No, it isn't all that I GM or play.  But anyway-

Alright.  Let me explain.  I've started a new D6 campaign, that's gone a few sessions (eh, 2).  It's been splendid, a word that I have never used before.  As usual, I'll just give a brief rundown:

I started with the premise that they would play a bounty-hunter party.   My players concist of Anthony, Jesse, and Avery.  

Anthony: took 2 days to create it but he made a long character background, and ended up with a highly detailed former corsec investigator.  He's kindof a cop running from the law.

Jesse:  I'm not sure how it happened but he ended up playing Anthony's sidekick.  This hasn't appeared as a problem yet FYI.  But he's kindof a mad gunman, and until recently he was carying around 18 guns in his trenchcoat, with parts to make more.

Avery: decided to play a monk.  That's right. A monk.  However, he turned out as more of a Samari, since he's weilding a katana, and has 5/6 combat skills I think.  He's been a pretty interesting contrast to the other two.

Raven:  is da' ship.  He was the first pet NPC that I entered into the story.  He's the AI that's been hotwired into the ship and has very interesting ideas.  He functions to be my way of controlling where the players go, and can be very funny on occasions.

Vala:  is the dark Jedi that I had join the party.  She's a pet NPC to the core.  I started her last session, and she's been invaluable.  I gave her greater abilities than the average party member, but this was primarilly for the party members to have something to work towards.  I wanted someone to rival Anthony's hold to leadership and Avery's claim to having the party's most badass sword.

The point: My bigest problem is getting PCs to be proactive.  I have been trying this for a long time and thing that it is the core to many problems.  I've heard that players are always pro-active when the GM doesn't try to stop them.  I'm not sure how this could be, though.  I simply can't think of any instances in character creation or play (recently) where I simply wouldn't let them do something on any grounds other than that it would cause their deaths.  Anthony wanted a gun in his cybernetic arm.  I gave it to him.

There are situations where it's simply baffeling though...

They were in a docking bay and they requested a refit of their ship and the price was 20,000 credits.  They only had 16,000 (They told me they only had 15,000), but it took them 20 minutes to even start negocitating.  Once they did, they thought of things quite good (like offering to help with the ship repairs), but I felt that they instinctivelly submitted to the GM.

Altogether, I'm getting good signs for this campaign, like peoples names actually being used.

One of the reasons may be how we started, with the D20 starter set.  It was basically a series of tactical combat encounters, and then we moved onto D20, not much better.  Classes...  but that's a different subject.  My point is that when I ask people to describe their character they still say, basically a Human (Duros, Wookie etc.) Soldier (Rogue, Jedi, etc.).

I suppose I hold them to high standerds, but yeah.  When I'm a player, I argue with the GM into giving myself privilages (which is wrong, I know.  I usually stop if I don't believe that I should get the special privelage)  And I hold every character I have special.  Heck, I have an entire binder of all of my important character sheets (which is about 75% of them even though half of them only lasted for 1 session).  

When I ask them why they don't take advantige of the options I give them they tell me that they just aren't creative enough, which confuses me horribly.

Alright- Any comments, questions, suggestions?  It's a good campaign  BECAUSE the PCs are memerable.  Oh, and I'm thinking of taking them on a dungeon hack next session.  What do you think?

What worries me here are the pet NPCs.  You've basically got a Blake's 7 thing going here, ORAC and all, which sounds fine, but why the dark Jedi?  Without more detailed descriptions, it's hard to be sure, but I wonder if the players aren't assuming (apparently wrongly) that these pet NPCs are going to guide the game from within.  Raven (the ship) you say is "my way of controlling where the players go," which suggests that they're now expecting to ride the GM railroad.

If you want to un-railroad them, I suggest giving them reason not to trust Raven, and scrapping the Jedi (or have her captured or go off on a mission or something).  Then when the ship starts railroading, they start wondering if they should be reprogramming with an axe, or whether the ship's biased knowledge is still better than no knowledge at all.

If you like the railroad, don't put the players where they have to jump a bridge.  That is, make clear to them what they ought to be doing, and give them a chance to have a lot of fun doing it.  If you're going to hamstring them with a difficult challenge (20 minutes is pretty long, really), then they ought to be grappling with it, not standing around wondering what to do.  Sounds like they were waiting for the Big Clue to come from Raven, or something of the kind.  If you put them up against a big cliff wall, make it easy to climb, but they have to figure out how to deal with the giant spiders who live halfway up, if that metaphor makes any sense.

Does this make sense, or am I totally misreading?

Incidentally, I'm glad to hear things are going so well thus far!

Hi Eric,

Let me second the congratulations on the successful play so far. This is a big deal.

I guess my main input, right now, is merely to say, "Don't sweat it." If it's going well, enjoy it, and don't look for things to criticize relative to some amazing gaming ideal. You've said in the past that you couldn't think of a single instance in which you had a genuinely good time role-playing - so if that's happening now, then you're 1000% in the black.

Best,
Ron

Eric, you've got a major contradiction in what you say... basically, in the following three quotes:

"He functions to be my way of controlling where the players go"
"I wanted someone to rival Anthony's hold to leadership"
and
"My bigest problem is getting PCs to be proactive"

So, you're controlling where they go and have challenged their leadership - where in your campaign do they have the option to be proactive in the first place?

The first thing I always do if I want pro-active players is to ask them to pick a leader.  A good leader is by definition pro-active, and by having the players pick a leader (instead of waiting for him to emerge naturally)  it makes them feel entitled to challenge the leadership later (what was given can be taken away).  Thus, someone other than the GM has been specifically empowered to make decision, and the players can always vote the guy off the island if it doesn't work.

I also find a little entrepreneurial spirit to be a great motivator for pro-active characters, since they always want more money and it's an easy motivator.  But defining the group as a bunch of do-gooders (like most superheroes) works, as do a myriad of other things.

It sounds like you're enjoying things, which is good.  Because of that, I wouldn't recommend rocking the boat too much (unless your players are bored or unhappy).   However, the first thing I'd do is introduce some sort of weakness for your NPCs.  Maybe Vala has a disease that knocks her out of the action just before an important job, and the players have to choose whether to go after a rare drug to save her, or ditch her and finish their job.  She could return to some sort of leadership role if that's what you and the players want, but you've shown a major weakness (giving the players an Ace up their sleeve) and even a dark jedi ought to feel a little gratitude.  Plus... if the players decide to ditch her, that'll be a very clear signal that don't like the role she's playing in the game and you'll know not to stick similar NPCs in.

Of course, some players just aren't gaming to be pro-active.  I questioned one player about his attitude and basically he said "I spend all day making important strategic decision at work and at home.  When I game, I just want to blow up the bad guys, save the princess and blow off steam."  That wasn't exactly what *I* wanted from him, but when I stopped expecting pro-active decisions, we all started having an even better time.

All good.  Thanks for the good reaction Ron.  Anyway- I just wanted to adress a couple of things.

QuoteWhat worries me here are the pet NPCs. You've basically got a Blake's 7 thing going here, ORAC and all, which sounds fine, but why the dark Jedi? Without more detailed descriptions, it's hard to be sure, but I wonder if the players aren't assuming (apparently wrongly) that these pet NPCs are going to guide the game from within. Raven (the ship) you say is "my way of controlling where the players go," which suggests that they're now expecting to ride the GM railroad.

Quote"He functions to be my way of controlling where the players go"
"I wanted someone to rival Anthony's hold to leadership"
and
"My bigest problem is getting PCs to be proactive"

So, you're controlling where they go and have challenged their leadership - where in your campaign do they have the option to be proactive in the first place?

Well, I should further explain the pet NPCs.  I shouldn't have been so dramatic.  Raven doesn't really act that way.  The choice of where to go is theirs, but they frequently ask Raven where to go and for help.  It really isn't a problem for them at all.  They usually decide the kind of place they go to, and I usually give them a number of places and they decide.

Now about the whole leadership thing...  I really meant it in different senses.  She challenges Mr. Blakes (Anthony's character, ironic isn't it).  She doesn't challenge Anthony's authority.  She doesn't really serve to control his actions, just to give him a challenge in game.  Anyway- the players don't seem to mind, which is what's imporant.

After my second session, I felt that I would give my friend a week to GM, since I'm nice and all that (Cody, the one who I had a history of fighting with on these very forums).  It seems that I am a curse upon his campaigns since I've ruined every one of games that I've been in (whether I've been introduced or not).  Well, the real reason was because of a bunch of teenage bullshit (don't you just love it?), but oh well.  This means that I have 3 (2 very highly detailed) characters that I've never had a chance to play but let me move on.  Cut to this week.  I've been preparing diligently a very decent plot (which won't turn out as well as I'd like it, but oh well.) as well as mass producing NPCs and notes etc.  I get to Jesse's house and guess what?  My session is ruined by even MORE teenage bullshit!  (One of my players decided to screw us so that he could hang out with his friend's sister at the mall for 3 hours.  + there was a visit from the prep from hell, my former roleplaying friend and his girlfriend.  They just nicelly decided to stop by at 12:30 uninvited.  Jesse's social life was nearly screwed thanks to them. [I don't know why I'm mentioning this.  Mabee it's to put things in perspective.])  We go home early and I get my burner to work in my brother's (POS) computer.  Music CDs for everyone!  We get Jesse and Avery to come over for a game sunday night, giving us a good 7 hours.

Anyway-

Session 3

It was good.  I started with the pirate battle I left off with last session.  I didn't have the stats for the enemy ship so I fudged it (not fun).  I had the intended purpose of disabling Vala's ship the silence for the express purpose of getting its cloaking device over to the main character's ship as well as forcing Vala to join up with them on the Raven making the connection between them more personal.  The pirate gunboat battle was more or less a venture in railroading.  However, I think I used illusionism to make it fun.  A mishap in the beggining of the battle caused the pirate gunboat to total Larry's (a gross looking guy who repaired their ship) docking port, making him very mad at them.  But eventually the gunboat won out critically hurting the Silence.  A Star Destroyer came in and destroyed the pirate ship and they were left with the task of towing the Silence into a docking bay.  This presented the first problem.  Anthony and Jesse (the pilots of the Raven) really didn't care or think about the Silence as soon as I'd hoped.  I had to remind them.  Since they were two loyal bodyguards (whom I concidered their friends).
{session break}
They got it.  They rescued Vala and the monk from the flames and proceeded to steal the cloaking device from the ship (Anthony took the initative, without any direction, which is good.)  I had Vala show off her mad roxor dark Jedi powers, but they really didn't have their players make any sigificant reaction (you know like not completelly IGNORING it).  They got the cloaking device and I led them to a trading planet so they could earn back some of the money I stole.  I had Jesse's character meat up with his former teacher, which was interesting enough.  They were then assigned to get the bounty on a rodian named 'Rune'.  He was an information dealer, and they went to a couple bars to find out where he was.  In the second bar, they had a firefight with a few guys and a large action scene took place in the basement.

I sent against them 3 destroyer droids.  I figured that it would be a sort of curve, concidering that this was the rebellion period.  I wanted them to be creative against opponents that had very high defenses.  My wish in no way was granted.  They simply took the same actions repetitivelly hoping for higher numbers.  I think I'm having problems in combat.  They really don't take advantige of their unique abilities.  My players don't even declare their target.  They say 'I dodge and shoot.'  I'm thinking 'Okay.  Dodge in what direction?  Shoot at what?  Are you trying to change it's target to you?  How many shots are you going to make?  Are you moving in any direction such as towards it, away from it, towards another droid?'
But in any case, I'm having a hard time, not campaign or even session ruining hard time but a hard time never the less.  I had Vala force them to make a tactical plan while she used her abilities to block the blaster shots with her sword.  It seemed a temporary solution.  Well, eventually she rolled a misshap and I ruled that she passed out.  They moved over to the droid, and managed to corner it, and got lucky and blasted the thing's ass.  Here is where it got interesting.

When they turned around, Rune had a knife to Vala's throat.  This was the worst part of the adventure.  The players were stunned.  Their characters were stunned.  I was stunned.  Well, stunned at their stunnedness.  Confused is more like it.  They couldn't think of anything.  They were just plain stunned.  This went on for what may have been 3 minutes.  I had them talk to Rune, but they didn't feal like using diplomacy.  No bluff.  No con.  No persuasion.  No intimidation.  They didn't try anything tactical either.  I had Rune threaten them with her life whenever they even moved closer, so that they couldn't weasel their way out and stun him with one of their bigass guns or something.  This was ackward.  Avery had his monk move into the corner and meditate.  So eventually, Jesse just decided to use a force point to shoot the gun out of Rune's hand (with one of the most innapropriate weapons that he had, no less).  Anyway, a battle insued, and since I had to cover for them in terms of defeating him, I increased his combat ability (gave him personal shielding and a decent gun etc.)  Eventually, he was stunned and tied up with his own rope, which was fun.  Anthony dumped 5 character points into a skill he didn't have to save Vala, which was good.  At this point I made a big screw up and skipped this pivital scene.  I just said 'wait a second, what am I talking about?' and retraced my steps.  Anthony got the information out of him that he wanted and the plot progressed.

At this point I had to distribute the rewards, which I did overgenerously.  I doubled the bounty (from 10,000 to 20,000.  Not bad though, it's being split amonst 2 people) and they got a few supplies.  The problem is that they used up a shitload of character points in some parts and wanted them back.  Especially Anthony, who had spent like 12.  According to the system, I'm supposed to NEVER UNDER ANY CURCUMSTANCES EVER EVER EVER EVER etc. give a player more than 15 character points.  I gave Jesse 25, Avery 25, and Anthony 35.  This was stupid.  However, they were demanding even higher numbers, so I felt compelled.  I take some satisfaction in the fact that our sessions are probably twice as long as normal sessions, but any way you look at it, that's a shitload of character points and a lot of dice rolling.  

So it comes down to a few things:

How do I encourage them to be better in combat?

How do I better the attachment they have to eachother and Vala?

How do I balance out the shitload of character points I'm giving my players (what's done is done)?

In any case, it was pretty good, and is progressing as well as it should.  One of the best things that happened this session were when the misshaps were rolled.  It was fun having Jesse's superblaster destroy a bunch of crated full of illegal weaponry and drugs.

Forever yours,
Pyron

QuoteSo it comes down to a few things:

How do I encourage them to be better in combat?

How do I better the attachment they have to eachother and Vala?

How do I balance out the shitload of character points I'm giving my players (what's done is done)?

I know the system itself doesn't really support this, and some sawing and hammering would be required to get it to fit, but maybe some sort of tangible reward for innovative thinking in high-stress situations (ie: combat). Like Sorcerer's bonus dice, or something.

The relationship mechanics from Hero Wars might be relevant, but I'd have to read up on them to make sure. The Trollbabe relationship mechanics, IMO, would definitely be worth looking into. But in any case, some sort of mechanical benefit from maintaining these relationships (between each other and important NPCs).

I worry less and less about game balance these days. One of the things I realized during my gaming hiatus was that, as a player, I wanted to see my character do cool things, and as a GM, I wanted to see my players do cool things. I had dealt for the longest time with a GM who wanted to have his NPCs do cool things while the PCs watched and marveled, and they got really annoyed when anyone tried to pull off something cool on their own, and actively took steps to smack them down when they did.

Let your players do cool things (and let them know that they have more than enough tools to do so), but make sure they understand that the reason they're doing them is for the enjoyment of the whole group, not just themselves. It strikes me that you're on the right track with the mishaps; just extend that flexibility to everthing else, and hopefully they'll follow suit.

-- Ben

(Note: edited for clarity)

Kinda old hat, but hey.

My inclination, is if the players don't have an attachment to your NPC, get a new NPC. Forcing relationships just doesn't work, in my experiance.  Have her leave, possible come back as a villian later, they'll know her, so it will be more interesting.

I believe D20 has a 'circumstances bonus' so you could give that for actions based on relationships.

Rescuing Friend from crime lord (+1)

Fighting Father over bottemless pit (+2).  ect.


I'm not sure what you mean by better in combat. If you mean more creative, just show that you won't penalize them for it(like the system says).

Another way would be to have a buch of weak guys with good tactics fight them, so they realize that the opponenst were difficult only b/c they worked together.

There is alot of standard techniques for this sort of thing.

Eric, it sounds to me like you're overly concerned about symptoms and ignoring the core issues.  It's like debating whether to slap a band aid on a guy's foot or his arm, when he has a sucking chest wound going.  Maybe I'm wrong, but hear me out.  I'll speak of the GM in the third person to emphasize the role and point out that I'm not criticizing you as a person.

I read through your adventure, and it seems like your players didn't really need to be there.  There was a big battle, ended by a GM-controlled ISD.  Then the GM reminded the PCs to rescue the damage ship, which contained an NPC who showed off how much more powerful she was.  Then, the GM gave them money to make up for money he'd stolen and told them where to go.  They did.

There, the GM initiated an encounter with one of the PC's friends, and assigned them a quest.  Now, the GM wants them to be created, so sends them up against some unusual opponents, but the PCs don't really engage, so the GM has an NPC force them to follow his plan while the NPC saves their butts.

At this point, the NPC passes out, only to be held at knifepoint by another NPC.  The PCs once again do not engage, so the GM "had them talk" to the NPC.  When that didn't work, the PCs came up with a combat plan that the GM made interesting by making the enemy stronger than he'd originally planned.  The PCs still wind up winning, however.

At this point, the PCs save the NPC, and the GM chooses to skip a scene, only to realize later that something important was going to happen there, so he goes back and makes sure the PCs get what they need.  Then, he gives out too much equipment and too much experience.

So... why do the players need tactics?  Why do they need relationships with NPCs?  Where is their point of attachment to the story (or each other or NPCs)?

To me, it sounds like a railroad with assigned seating on top of everything else.  Frankly, I'd be skipping out to the mall whether or not I had a girl to go do it with.  The players are given very few options, and when they are given a choice, the GM has expectations for what they should do.  But regardless of their so-called choice, the story still works out and they still get more than they would have deserved even if they'd worked their butts off.

How would I have run it?  Well, first, I wouldn't have a star destroyer show up except as a significant part of a plot (and this didn't seem to be the case).

I would have reminded the players about the stranded ship, just in case they forgot, but I would also have made a big note: "Players don't care about the NPC - get rid of here as soon as convenient."

I would not have helped them win the battle with the droids.  They'd have either lived or died on their own merit.  I would have given a few hints and tips, just to help them learn that I was expecting some tactics.  If, after a few similar battles, they still hadn't started mastering tactics, I'd shift the focus of the plot.

I would not have upped the combat strength of Rune.  Why?  Well, the PCs had already had their butts kicked by a bunch of droids and they came up with a nifty use of their powers, which should be rewarded, since I want them to keep doing that.  So I would have left the guy at his original strength.  By the way, the players were probably fully aware that you bumped up the NPCs capabilities just to make it harder.

Of course, I'd have also killed Vala.  Why?  Well, the PCs didn't seem to be doing much to save her, and I've already made a mental note to kill her.  What's more convenient?

For the next adventure, I'd finish up the current plot and end with half a dozen plot hooks.  I'd then let the players pick what they wanted to do - which doesn't even have to be a plot hook, but you can't stop railroading them all at once or they'll be even more confused.  But, you have introduced a meaningful decision, and you still have time to prepare.  

However, I wouldn't prepare by writing down my little story of what will happen, which seems to be what you'll be doing.  I would write down the story of what will happen if the PCs don't get involve, and leave it at that.  If you have that much detail, it should be clear how the PCs' actions affect the situation (both to you and to the players).

At some point, you can wean them off plot hooks.  Just ask them "What do you want to do next?" at the end of a scenario.  When they finally answer, give it to them!  And don't make it unnecessarily hard, and don't introduce a complication that changes it.  Just give it to them - you're already admitting to giving them too much in return for following your plot.  Why not give them too much in return for creating their own plot?

Want to stimulate your characters to do wild action picture type stuff? You need a system that rewards them for doing it.  WUSHU (which I haven't run but want to ) would be worth looking at, as it rewards those who come up with cool itneresting actions.  The games creator has a also has a kitbash of the system for Star War here, and you can buy the pdf for the core rules at that site.
http://www.bayn.org/games/index.html