The Forge Archives

As per Mike's suggestion, here is a thread to post difficult-to-stat demon concepts & solutions.  Here is one which has been niggling with me-

Need: Sorcerer's love and affection
Desire: Defend sorcerer AT ALL COSTS

Powers: an insonspicuous demon who lurks about with the singular desire to prevent harm from coming to his sorcerer- even if this would interfere with the sorcerer's life.  He can teleport the sorcerer, but only via a sort of sympathetic position reversal, swaping the sorcerer in space with the source of the danger it is trying to avoid.  

for example, if a sniper shoots at him, the demon could flip their locations- the sorcerer would be looking down the scope of a high powered rifle as the assissin catches the bullet.  In traffic, a car runs the red and plows into the sorcerer's car- but just before impact the demon flips the locations of the oher driver and the sorcerer so th driver is killed in the side impact and the sorcerer saved by the driver's air bag.  

Figure Perception for detecting danger, and travel to move the sorcerer about... but how to work the mechanics of the switchero within the ability structure?  Would the victim of this get the chance to resist so he doesn't keep shooting himself?  


-Ben

Ben,

I imagine you'll hear several ways to do this, but here's mine.

Stamina 5
Will 6
Lore 5
Power 6

Abilities
---------
Perception (danger to Binder) [user: demon]
Travel + Transport + Ranged [user: demon]
Fast [user: demon]

Mechanically, the demon rolls Perception first versus:
- an opponent's Stamina, Will, or Cover if someone is deliberately trying to hurt the sorcerer
- 1 die if the sorcerer is in danger from a non-deliberate source

If successful, the demon then rolls Fast (+ successes from Perception) versus:
- an opponent's Stamina if someone is deliberately trying to hurt the sorcerer
- 1 to 6 dice, determined by quickness of the damage, if the sorcerer is in danger from a non-deliberate source

If successful, the sorcerer switches places with the source of the damage. If the attack was deliberate, the target may get a Stamina vs. Stamina roll (both his own Stamina) to see if he hits himself (in the case of your sniper, from above).

I think you need Transport rather than Travel, or perhaps both, since the demon is moving things about, but that's a minor point.  I think Special Damage (perhaps both Leathal and Non-Leathal to be used depending on the circumstances) covers what you are looking for.  The idea is that the demon is basically "attacking" the otherwise unthreatened individual.

So, you make the attack roll as usual.  If the demon fails, no switching.  If the demon succeeds the switch happens as per the Transport Ability and the victim takes the damage according the Special Damage rules.

Jesse

Hi Ben,

Whoa, before going on:

QuoteDesire: Defend sorcerer AT ALL COSTS

What is it that makes Desire so difficult for people?

1. Desires are not actions or things. They are one-word principles.
2. They may be achieved, perceived, or experienced in a wide variety of ways; they are not limited to particular people, places, or things.

This demon's Desire doesn't have to have anything to do with its abilities. If it did, though, I'd put it at Mayhem.

2. Now for the demon abilities. You've already implied one important thing: that the demon ability or effect is not guaranteed to work, which makes life easier.

So ... yeah, Travel and Perception, no problem. I'd actually have two Perceptions - one for the actual application of the ability, one for the "set-up" perception of the danger in the first place. After that - Special Damage, Ranged. The idea is that whatever happens to the person who's the source of the damage is bad, so, it's Damage. All done. No need to model the damage that would have been done to the original target (the sorcerer) and convert it back in any way.

So, roll #1 is to perceive the danger comin' up, quite likely with some time lag. Roll #2 is the other perception, perhaps used as a modifier to the Travel in terms of Stamina or Power (the Travel requires no roll, but could use the extra speed/distance implied). Then whop, the Special Damage. Roll all victories into bonus dice for each step.

Ugly.

3. As far as defense goes, I'd set it as a typical attack - the attacker has the choice to abort to defense or eat it with a one-die roll. This would be interpreted somewhat differently than simply two guys trying to kill each other with shovels, being more customized to the attack and based more on metaphysics, but the mechanics would work the same.

Best,
Ron

Hello,

Shoulda checked the preview. I endorse both Jesse's Transport and Clinton's Fast added into the structure.

Best,
Ron

I suppose I should support this idea, as it was partly my fault.

OK, I want a demon that can swallow people whole against their wills, then regurgitate them later when they feel like it, thus making the demon a walking jail.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I'm thinking that the long-term engulf would be simply expressed by Stamina. It would be set up as a Hold (the grab/engulf), then the Hold wears off and you've still got to struggle against the Stamina. If you want people really encased in there, then perhaps a Psychic Blast could be incorporated as well to keep'em on ice a good long time. Perhaps some application of the Currency would be used to set the limits or various penalties to getting loose.

Until I know more about just what limitations you'd set (can you cut your way out, can the prisoners inside even move or think at all, etc), that's about where I get.

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Mike HolmesOK, I want a demon that can swallow people whole against their wills, then regurgitate them later when they feel like it, thus making the demon a walking jail.

I like this game!

Let's see, I think we're definately looking a version of the Hold ability.  The thing that's tripping me up is: "A single Hold does not prevent actions  besides shifting places, but a second Hold will prevent motions like shooting, hitting, or thrashing.  The third immobilizes the target completely."

So, maybe Fast (perhaps taken twice) would allow this ability to skip right the second or even third stage?

Oh and most definitely this requires Transport.

As for the regurgitation, I would suggest that that's just the demon reliquishing the effects of the Hold.

Can anyone add to this?

Jesse

Hmm. I like the idea that you can cut yourself out. Maybe you can do so until you fall unconscious, which happens some time after being swallowed. After that, I suppose it's just Transport. That would take care of the long term duration.

Given what Jesse points out, maybe it's just Hold, Hold, Hold, Psychic Blast, and then Transport?

The Hero System designer in me wants the points back for the Linked effects. :-)

Mike

Link schmink! That was so friggin' broken ...

H'm, I see the sequence a little differently: a Hold attack first (grab with tongue), then a Psychic Blast (the engulf), then further Holds and kicking in with Transport. Monstrous victory-rolling, of course, which culminate in more Power for the Transport.

Oy. The really neat part is that the demon doesn't have to be all that high-Power.

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Ron EdwardsH'm, I see the sequence a little differently: a Hold attack first (grab with tongue), then a Psychic Blast (the engulf), then further Holds and kicking in with Transport. Monstrous victory-rolling, of course, which culminate in more Power for the Transport.

I think I just had another lightbulb moment.  So, let's assume the demon in question has a Power of 4 (minimum for the abilities listed above).  And it wants to swallow down some burly dude with a Stamina of 6.

Transport says, "...the passengers' combined Stamina must not exceed the demon's Power."

What I think you're saying is that.  I can roll the Hold victories over to the Psychic Forces (although I'm having trouble seeing why this ability is relevant) and then roll those victories over to perhaps another Hold and then... and here's the part that surprised me... have THOSE victories add on to the Demon's Power for purposes of calculating the Transport limit?

I didn't realize you could roll victories over to something that doesn't require a roll and is just a static limiting factor.  Very interesting...

That means all those funky "in world" limitations I was complaining about in that other thread where time and space are concretely measured as a factor of Power aren't as fixed as I thought they were.

Jesse

Hi Jesse,

Here's why I like the Psychic Force part - you basically are knocking the person's effective dice way down, so they, well, get engulfed and can't do much about it at the moment. If I'm reading Mike's intent right, the fun part isn't about "do I or don't I get engulfed," it's "oh shit, he's engulfed, when is the demon going to let him out?" So I'm just hammering the target with a lot of penalties, is all.

You wrote,

Quotedidn't realize you could roll victories over to something that doesn't require a roll and is just a static limiting factor. Very interesting...

That means all those funky "in world" limitations I was complaining about in that other thread where time and space are concretely measured as a factor of Power aren't as fixed as I thought they were.

This is me, doing hosannas. Rule of Currency! One die = one victory = one bonus = one penalty = one score value. Always! It means that you can always convert these things into one another, across any in-game categories or rules-chunk that you want.

I don't suppose anyone has noticed that, therefore, you could convert victories based on commanding the demon straight onto the demon's Power? The multitudes respond: We can? Me: "And I say unto you, brethren, you can! Say it now, all together ... We ... Can!!"

Best,
Ron

Too sweet.

Sounds like a great sidebar for the 2nd edition :-)

Quote from: Ron EdwardsRule of Currency! One die = one victory = one bonus = one penalty = one score value. Always! It means that you can always convert these things into one another, across any in-game categories or rules-chunk that you want.

Hey, I don't think that last link in the chain is in the book (don't have a copy on hand). Sure, it's obvious that I can add that success to a Power roll, but a Power stat for the purpose of employing a Power? I wouldn't even have gotten that. I can see extrapolating that from the rules, but you have to admit that it's not obvious.

So I'm glad it's out here so I can use it in my upcoming games.

You sure that doesn't have any problems with it?

Mike

P.S. Link is only broke in earlier editions. See Fifth for a truely beautiful treatise on how combined powers work. I was astounded at how cool it was when I read it. One of the great improvements of the edition.

Hi Mike,

Equals signs work in both directions.

Best,
Ron