The Forge Archives

Hi there,

Check out the complete A Day at the Circus story!

Also, the first strip of Holy Trollers, the new story by me and James V. West, is now up!

Best,
Ron

And this looks like a good place to ask -

What do people think?  Is Aiga REALLY a "vegi-troll"?  Or maybe a man-killer, but not a man-eater?  She did tear ol' two-head apart - was he not human?

(I, also, like these kinda philosophical moments . . . )

Gordon

Hi there,

Gordon, I'm amazed - you nailed it. Two of the Retta stories so far have provided serious future plot elements, and that's one of them. Keep an eye on Aiga, people.

I presume you meant "he," not "she," in your heads-ripping-off sentence, right?

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Ron EdwardsI presume you meant "he," not "she," in your heads-ripping-off sentence, right?

I'm afraid not - 'Aiga' was a she until just now.  Probably because "a terminal 'a' means the name is feminine."  Stupid, but there it is.

My lack of Trollbabe ownership (now that Sex & Sorcery is available, soon to be remedied) may also explain it - there may be trollish gender-cues I'm not familiar with.

Wow - did I really just say I want to get more familiar with trollish gender-cues?  What an odd hobby we have . . .

Gordon

H'm, glory be, a content issue that I should clarify in later stories. Aiga's a boy.

Thinking over the text in Trollbabe, I guess the only thing I can point to is that the female trolls all have fairly visible breasts (dugs, really).

Best,
Ron

In another Trollbabe discussion I mentioned something about how Relationship NPCs are risking life and limb no matter how small of a task they are set out to do and Ron made some cryptic comment about an "essencial variable" I had just revealed about myself.  I think I may be about to reveal another (or perhaps the same) variable.  At this rate Trolbabe is going to land me in theropy.

Anyway, Gordon's comment made me realize why the Rhetta stories are so, "Ho-hum" to me while the Tha story was like, "ROCK ON!"  In my eyes, Rhetta hasn't done anything particularly, surprising or questionable, given what she knows at the time her decisions.

In the first strip Rhetta doesn't know whether there's an ancient enemy or not and from the situation doesn't look like she has any means to find out.  On top of that this guy just flat out attacks her after, MAYBE having slaughtered an entire boatload of people.  She defends herself.  Shug.  So what?  What ELSE is she supposed to do?

In the latest strip Rhetta recuses a troll which she knows two things about.  1) The Troll claims he doesn't eat humans.  2) The Troll is clearly abused by its captors.  At best Agia is on the level and Rhetta's rescuing a wrongly accused prisoner; at worst Rhetta is rescuing an abused animal.  In the end Aiga asks, "Was it worth it?"  Was WHAT worth it?  What did Rhetta DO?  Daze a few people?  What sacrifice was involved here that we're measuring "worth" against?

Now, Tha on the other hand is out there doing stuff that gives one pause.  So, she can't get a date but clearly has all these maternal drives.  So, instead of working harder at the whole relationship thing, so goes out there and does all that wacked out spooky shit all to get creepy baby-root thing!!!  Gah!  Tha isn't acting on someone elses lie.  She isn't acting in self-defense.  She isn't acting on incomplete information.  She knows full well what she's doing, what she wants, and what the costs are and she chooses to take those actions anyway!

To put this another way, in the Tha story I could clearly hash out the Egri Premise, in the Rhetta stories, I can't.

Yeah, Yeah, back to the whole "obvious" choices thing.  But oh well.

Jesse

Hey Jesse,

Very interesting - I think in RPG play, I'd very much agree with you.  What I find fascinating about the Rhetta comics so far is that they are SO minimal in information, you (or at least I) end up looking real close to try and find where the "issue" is, and (at least in my case) you DO, as the reader, end up finding it.  I think Rhetta also "knows" about the issue(s), and no doubt has more options available to her than we see in the comic, but . . . the fact that her choice seems so obvious, but has hidden consequences that at some level both she and the reader can see hints of, makes for a more intersting "story" than I was really expecting from these little comic strips.

So - as an RPG-exemplar, I think I get JUST what your saying, but as a more standard author/reader effect, Rhetta works just fine for me.

Gordon

Quote from: Gordon C. LandisWhat do people think?  Is Aiga REALLY a "vegi-troll"?  Or maybe a man-killer, but not a man-eater?  She did tear ol' two-head apart - was he not human?

I suddenly realized that I kind of side-lined Gordon's actual question.  So, I thought I'd provide my own direct answers to these questions.

1) I'm inclinded to believe that Aiga IS a vegi-troll or at least a non-human eating troll.  Here's why:  Aiga is very insistant to Hobwart that he doesn't like the taste of humans adding that, "This is stupid," and Hobwart tells Aiga to "play the part."  That seems like a very odd exchange to me if Aiga is lying.  It's clear that Hobwart isn't going to let Aiga out so what's the point of lying?  Rhetta isn't around so it isn't a show for her benefit.  Also the whole word choice seems to make it look like this is a long standing situation.  I just think Aiga would have moved on from the whole "vegie-troll" angle a LONG time ago if he was lying.

2) As for killing two-head, that was just an act of revenge.  Nothing wrong with plain old fashion revenge in my eyes.  I did like Rhetta ribbing Aiga about it though.  By the way I didn't notice that two-head was erm, two-headed until you pointed it out.  I just thought it was two goblin like creatures standing really close to each other.

3) To address my own quesiton about what Aiga is talking about in the end, I kind of forgot about Rhetta's thought in the first frame about always wanting to work in the circus.  So, I guess to some extent she gave that up to rescue Aiga.  It's just, I didn't get a good read on how important that was to her.  Does "always wanting to work in the circus" mean as a career or in a 15 minutes of fame sort of way.  If it's the former then yeah, big decision.  If it's the latter, well, she's been there done that, so no big deal.  And just because of the nature of Trollbabe stories I would tend to kneejerk assume it's the latter.  But that's just me.

Jesse

Hello,

That's a good point about the difference between the Retta and Tha stories, Jesse. I have to say, they do serve different baseline-aesthetic kinds of satisfaction when I write them.

Retta's a wanderer and a free spirit - she sees things without judging them much, but when circumstances get too extreme, she simply weighs into the situation based on a very personal connection. The "greater good" isn't an issue to her, but she's sensitive to personal needs. I think her stories will be more entertaining to you insofar as they contribute to a larger story, over the long haul, because the little vignettes just set up material for the consequences of her actions rather than focusing on the crisis of her decisions (as you point out, there's not much crisis there).

Tha lives in a city and has lots of authority and social connections there. She deals with everyone else's notions of the "greater good" all the time, and takes a lot of responsibility for other people's problems that get put onto her. Shit, she even dies for the ghost-wolves at one point. The whole baby-thing is the only thing that's really hers.

Two different sorts of loneliness.

Anyway, there's a peek into the head of the author. I like both gals and think of them with a little sadness, actually, as well as admiration for their boundless energy.

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Ron EdwardsI think her stories will be more entertaining to you insofar as they contribute to a larger story, over the long haul, because the little vignettes just set up material for the consequences of her actions rather than focusing on the crisis of her decisions (as you point out, there's not much crisis there).

I think that's the crux of it right there.  This is a story structure that's never really appealed to me.  I was only able to describe it fully after reading the Conan stories and The Sandman comics.  Once, I'd hit the end of the ten volume Sandman Collection it hit me that I had not really been reading a bunch of isolated stories but rather I had been reading a single story that was composed of story-lettes each with their own beginning, middle and end but truly lacking in thematic punch unless taken in summation with the other stories in the series.  I realized the Conan stories were the same way.  You can't pick a single Conan story at random and truly claim to know Conan you have to read the whole Saga to get that.

It's been three stories and I'm only just NOW beginning to get a glimpse of who Rhetta, "is."  Where each story sort of shades in a little piece and when it's all over I'm sure I'll "get it" in retrospective summation of the stories.  Tha, on the other hand, I got in one big walloping punch.  From a readers stand point I feel like I understand the core of Tha.  Additional stories will, I hope, simply graft on new pieces or color my perception of that core, with each new punch.

Jesse

Hello,

Speaking as a reader, rather than as the author, the "choice" moment in the Circus story comes when she's deciding whether to release Aiga. The danger is that she might be loosing a very nasty people-eater monster onto a town. Trolls do eat people, after all, and "I'm a vegetarian" doesn't sound any too convincing.

Best,
Ron

I think the "tapestry" approach to storytelling can be a little off-putting because each story has it's own ending and it might be a problem for some people to have the desire to pick up and start a new tale. I had that problem with Elric after the first 3 or 4 books. A solid, concise tale all told in one chunk has obvious advantages when it comes to holding a reader's attention.

However, as a creator, I'm a fan of doing tapestries. And when it comes to Trollbabe strips, let's face it, you can read an entire story in under 5 minutes so it seems to me that the layers build up fast. It's just that you have to wait for each new installment.

I'm really enjoying the tales so far and I can't wait to get that oversized collected book Ron will be publishing in 2010 (well, he might, right?).