The Forge Archives

Summary
Part 1 Email from the GM informing all players that when we show up next we will be playing new game of his choice
Part 2 Email from a player (myself) asking trying to figure out what is going on
Part 3 The GM's response to the letter
Part 4 A very nasty response from the GM's girlfriend
Part 5 My response to Kat

Cast Jerry=GM,  Brian= Me a player, kat= GM's girlfriend & a player



-------------------------------------PART ONE -----------------------------------------------------
After watching the group interaction over the last few weeks, I am temporarily postponing the metalfyre campaign.  We can still get together on Friday nights, but I am going to run/play something else.  If I can get it up by next week, we can play a superhero RPG (either V&V or Marvel) otherwise, we can just play other games.

Either way, I need to see what needs to be done to bring our group back on course and I am looking for any input you may have.

Over the last 8-10 weeks, I've seen the group go from a group of friends who had fun, opened up, and interacted in a good-natured way turn into a group of people that were fairly distanced from each other in the game.  These characters don't interact anywhere near as friendly as the D&D group did.  (I know the grammar in that last sentence sucked).  

This group splits up more often and goes off on little private missions way too often, leaving too many of the others on their own.  And when the group does do non-combat things together, there is often fierce competition and the jokes become a bit more acidic.

I've noticed that what used to be cute in-jokes amongst the group and fun jibes have become MUCH more sarcastic, pointed, and ill-natured.  

I've also noticed that the group doesn't open up to each other that much any more.  We don't talk about cooking, recreational activites, or in-game personalities as much.

There have been far too many instances of min-maxing and a few times that individuals, after I have asked the group not to do a certain thing because I'm still fleshing it out, have gone on to do that exact thing.

I see instances of individuals trying to monopolise too much of the role playing or dice rolling.  More than once, someone has complained about someone else stepping on their idea or interfering with their character.  I would also like the character sheet kibbitzing to stop.  By this I mean that I'd like players to keep their eyes on their own character sheet, only offering advice or help with coming up with nubers from someone elses sheet if the player in question or me (the GM) ask othrs to help.  This means things like spell descriptions and magic items that are listed on one player's sheet should be their responsibility, if they wish.

I'd like certain individuals to pay more attention to what the PARTY would like to accomplish, so that we don't end up with combat against unneccessary opponents or delaying a plot advancement because someone wants to go shopping one more time.  I see some of you getting bored or rolling your eyes (not just Julie) when the game is about to advance and someone stalls it agian.

Anyway, obviously, not all of these comments apply to everyone, andI am guilty of delaying the game myself, often.  And I know that some of the situations are my responsibility forsetting them up that way in the first place.

But I am looking for feedback.  With a gruop this size in an RPG environment, we ALL need to work toghether better, or the game WILL collapse as I burn out.

I know this may sound a bit depressing or threatening, but just take it for what it is, a description of what I've been seeing.

Please foreward any other complaints you have to me and I will try to address them.

Jerry

-------------------------------------PART TWO -----------------------------------------------------
Myself and other player were shocked at the switch we had no idea there was any problem
So I sent him an email and received a few very vague answers.   Sever weeks later nothing had been discussed any attempts at opencommunication were squashed by the GM  So I sent his to the entire group.


These are excerpts from emails between Jerry and Brian
Please understand that my intention is not to attack or blame anyone, we are all at fault.  
I am sending this to everyone because I think there are problems that are not being aired and resolved, my hope is that we can all talk about these in person face to face like adults.  And secondly I'm sending this because I would rather play metalfyre than V&V.

1)
(JERRY) As for my own decisions, I have been in correspondence with some of you about different things, and all of you know I'm stressed out, but it's back to normal (which may or may not be a good trhing, bwa
haa haa haa haaaaa). To be honsest, I almost cancelled Metalfyre after the last MF game we played, but luckily, calmer heads prevailed.
(BRIAN) I don't understand, What exactly happened in the last game? Nothing has been discussed out in the open where issues can be resolved.

2)
(BRIAN) Do any of the players actually want to switch to V&V and be told to play
superheroes
(JERRY) No response
(BRIAN) Aren't big decisions like this usually made as a group?

3)
"Slowing the game down going shopping one more time" (quote from Jerry's group email)
(BRIAN) Recently there has been a lot of time spent discussing Video games, movies, music, other games and video games. At least going shopping is game related.  
(Jerry's Response) James did this a lot in the last V&V campaign.)  
(BRIAN) What does that have to do with the current campaign?

4)
"Splitting up the group"
(BRIAN) We don't always need to split up but that's the assumption that is made.
When players A B C & D want to go to Locations 1 2 3 and 4, many times
the entire group can go to all four locations together. Instead we are
usually told players A&B go here Players B&C go there
(Jerry's Response) Once again, I understand that.  It has been a concern, though, that when players try to accomplish something and mention doing something as a group, there has been a lot of one or two players splintering off, and as a result, we spend time trying to get the party back together.  
(BRIAN) Jerry skirted my suggestion that many times the party can stay together.

5)
"Not sharing information"
I think all but two of the players try to share everything they learn.
(Jerry's Response) Actually, just about everyone has been guilty of withholding info, or giving out misleading info.  This has also been a common complaint.  
(BRIAN) Bull, James has improved much.  However Kat was the worst sneaking around refusing to tell anyone what she was up to.  

6)
(BRIAN) Have events gone on in the game separate of the entire group on Friday
nights? this leads to secrecy and distrust between the characters,  possible examples, a fling with scorchy, aprils fools day jokes?
No response

7)
(BRIAN) -I think players need to be more up-front with each about any issues or complaints, instead three weeks later I hear about it from a 3rd person and I have very little recollection about what happened. It's not possible to be sensitive to people's peeves if you don't know there is a problem.
What it boils down to is that we are all a bunch of pussies afraid to confront each other when we ought to.
I know that the way I play may sometimes rub people the wrong way and upset them but I have no idea when or where it happens.
(Jerry's Response) I agree, one of my problems is that nobody confronts anyone else, or hey do it in a very un-diplomatic way.  I've been telling everyone that if they have a problem, adress it with everyone.  But, of course, it normally comes back to me instead, which is why we are doing this.  This group needs more unity and confidence, something we haven't had since about December at the end of the old D&D game.

8)
(BRIAN) I was unhappy with being sent to the kitchen during the brothel episode, I come to play and I feel that I missed out on what sounded like a fun time. My favorite times playing the game are these fun little
misadventures where nothing goes quite to plan and we think on feet and laugh with each other. Not the big drawn out battles or beating the big evil supervillians. One of the other great games was the one with the
first boat trip where we fired a cannon, met big beavers and had a perfect little battle with a river worm. I think the second boat ride dragged a little after the first 3 days at sea.
No response

9)
(BRIAN) I admit that I did complain that for 2 weeks I didn't get to kill any thing. Don't interpret that as saying I desire more combat; but rather that when there is a fight and I'm there, I want to participate in it & not be 1
round too late left out of everything.  
No response

10)
(BRIAN) As for the other issues it sounds like you very specific complaints/issues with people, if so don't beat around the bush, individually talk to everyone you have an problem with, I expect it will be much more productive approach.
(Jerry's Response) We will be addressing some of this after a week or so, right now, I am about fried and trying not to bite everyone's head off, my own included.  But we will address some of these as they come up.
(BRIAN) It doesn't seem like any of this has been addressed

11)
Here is a quote "OK, first of All, Metalfyre is not ending soon. with that said, I would eventually like to run a Superhero based game, so: What kind of Campaign World and Game System are you interested in?"
(BRIAN)  is that the support that you said you had for switching to V&V?

12)
(JERRY) For those of you who do not enjoy the V&V campaign, let me know what
you are looking for. I welcome all of you to play, ut if
superheroing is not your thing, you don't have to come and play.

(BRIAN) My issues are that:
·   I had no input on what game we played.
·   I didn't get to role my stats or powers, there was no reason for that!
·   The one thing I got that I thought I wanted was increased speed which turned out to be a joke, I expected it to have a serious to effect the number of attacks I got.
·   Explanation of the rules was purposely with held until after stats and powers were locked in.
·   In the old V&V campaign we were asked what kind of powers we would like, Before this game started, I told jerry what kind of character I would like to play (which was a gadgeteer) after the fact James did do a great job randomly rolling one.  
·   The communication has been a poor, it feels like I've been told this is what we are playing take it or leave it.

13) AND FINALLY THE BIGGY THE ONE EVERY ONE ELSE IS AFRAID TO SAY.  Kat is the player who seemed to have the most problems with the game.  She constantly bit off jerry head over small issues.  She would show up moody & grouchy slamming stuff around, then snap at anyone who committed the smallest offense.  Remember the games she did not play in, much of the tension was gone.  Players were not afraid to express themselves.  SHE IS NOT PLAYING V&V so what is being solved??????


-------------------------------------PART Three -----------------------------------------------------

Replys from Jerry:

#1:  In the last game, everyone was on edge, there were some blantant attempts at showmanship, people were not working together like they should and the general atmosphere was one of individual ego instaed of a group.  At least 2 other players were thinking of leaving the game permenantly after the last one, not including myself.

#2: Nobody HAS to play V&V.  All of you still have the option of opting out of the V&V campaign (Kat did) if you don't want to play heros.  Why did I do it? As I said the first week, because it is easy to run, because Julie, Dan, aaron, and James have all asked me to run it, because everyone who played before enjoyed it, so, in some ways, it was done as a group.  You are the only one who complained, I asked everyone if they had a problem and the answer was, as long as we went back to metalfyre, go for it (paraphrasing)., but most of all:

becuase it promotes being the good guy.  Everyone knows by now my feelings as a GM about playing the villan, but some of the players have begun to do so in Metalfyre (excessive focus on killing innocents, killing animals for fun, disregarding player or character personal feelings, cruelty instead of interrogation, etc.)  I've said it before, if you can't play a good guy, play in another campaign.  This group is too tight knit to have rogue players doing things that make the others ethically uncomfortable.  Too many times a player has ignored the personal requests of other PLAYERS (not characters) to do things that are at least bad if not evil.  In V&V you get penalized for this, so I intended (as I stated at the beginning) that this would be a good way for everyone to play the good guy again.  In V&V you get piddling XP for actually fighting a villan, you get XP for role playing, characterization, humor, and being heroic.  You lose XP for being evil and get 0 XP for scenes where you are unheroic.  Jokes are one thing, cruelty and abuse of power is another. (See any issues of Thor to see how this works).

I've said it before, this group used to be tight knit and reliable. you supported each other and confided in one another, and me.  This hasn't happened since the end of the D&D game. and the start of the various Metalfyres.

3) Yes, and we have talked about stalling and I am one of the biggest problems where that is concerned.  However, there are also times when, in the game, the group is about to embark and someone HAS to go back for one last try at getting the next big MIN/MAX item.  This slows the group down again, especially when it is something that wasn't available last time.  When you have said"let's get back to the game" when we are on one of our tangents, we try to get back.  And we're all doing better at that now.

As for the James thing, that was a reference (which James has already said is OK to refer to) that the players of the last campaign can relate to as things NOT to do.  It became a running joke for a while in the last D&D campaign, and James was still earning, but it is the best example of how to roleplay instead of MIN/MAXing.

4) I'm not talking about when the party is in town shopping (though that sometimes gets overlong) I'm talkig about the complaint about one character going off to do things when the rest of the party has already decided on a plan of action (this is what did Lanikai in over and over and over again, though she wasn't the only culprit).  I honestly thought that the situation was obvious, it had been discussed over and over again.  But here it is again for clarification.

5)  It is NOT bull.  I've heard this complaint from 4 players about just about everyone.  I'm not talking about players that have personal goals, desires, or backgrounds that don't involve the party.  I'm talking about characters meeting with oobvious plot points and then not revealing what they know.  Once again, this is a common complaint.  Myst very specifically did not learn ANYTHING useful from scortchy.  I made sure of it.  Anything she learned that was useful was stated during discussions in the game.  Other characters secrets (and I'm not revealing them now because they aren't important to anyone else) will only be discussed if they relate to the rest of the group.  You are allowed to have private characters.  However, if you discover a name or a location, etc, shjare it with the group.

6) some players have agreed to do things to each other outside of the game that do not involve the party.  Jokes, flings, romances, clan info, is all allowed.  If you wnat to get involved, find a way without being intrusive.  In this campaign, the group is not very sensitive to each others feelings and character desires (hunting animals for fun, unneccessary torture, abuse, etc.) so many of the players have discussed personal development with me because they don't feel comfortable exploring it IN FRONT OF THE GROUP.  This is one of the main reasons w switched systems.  This didn't happen in D&D anywhere near as much.  

However, to be honest, I thought your question was referring to me running games on other nights with individuals.  No, I don't do that, though there have been several impromptu discussions about character motivations and what happens behind the scenes to stregthen role playing motives.  

7) This has been discussed over and over again and I have talked to each of you, including you, brian, about this and I've addressed it twice since the end of MF in frront of the group on a whole.  If you have a problem, speak up. When it happens.  It does us no good to talk about it 3 weeks later when the player in question, who often doens't think they've hurt anyone, can't even remember what was said.

8) First of all, there was a possibility of you having to come in in the middle of something that your character didn't know about.  I sent the others out of the room during the bar assassination game as well when you were all separated.  

As far as boat games, that's up to you to do things with.  Nobody did much with broomball or anything else until you wnet swimming.   (Well Julie & Kat did some climbing and stuff) and the whole atmosphereof fun was let down by the constant desires to kill innocent animals like sharks, etc which really bothered a few of the players.  Some even vocalised it, though it was ignored.  I even mentioned that it was a bit mean, and the statements were still repeated over and over again.  

I povide you with adventures and situations, you have to play the heroes in them and sometimes little side stories are left open to explore.  (remember the ghost dog, the talking snake, the elfen party after the capture of the brigands, the first royal ball, the scooby doo adventure [gods help us all], the big black sphere, "lets ambush the army after they pass us", new beer, ambushing allavon, etc.  all of these were spontaneous adventures that started with something small (OK, once there was this giant, stuffed, octopus...))

9) This has happened to everyone.  One of the big complaints that has been voiced in the game (and addressed, hopefully) is the similar problem of somebody duking it out with a villan for several rounds only to have someone else walk up and steal the kill without asking if the player needs help.  THIS NEVER HAPPENED IN THE OLD GAME AND WE'RE TRYING TO CORRECT IT.  This has been a very common complaint.   Sometimes, you are the backup.  It happens.  Especially if you're the big conspicuous ones.  This is why ross and Brian had to hide out of the way.  Huge Vraati and Minotaurs are not common eneough.  And yes, I know that ross was able to enter the battle before you, but that's his character, he's a sneaky warrior.  Brian, you are a powerhouse.  That's the role you chose when you picked a minotaur.


10) I have adressed some of the issues already and some of them I've deliberately left until the principals are able to sit down and talk about them.  (some of these are multiplayer concerns).  

11)  No actually, my support came before and after that post.  However after that week, I spoke to everyone who returned my calls about what happened and decided that instead of simply cancelling GMing for the summer that we'd switch to V&V.  Any they discussed what kind of campaign, and what game system, and where.  It was even discussed with some people that very night.  Obviously, not everyone was for it, which is why I mentioned that anyone could opt out until MF came back.  Kat did, for other reasons not related to being a hero (and we've already been over that before, so I'm not doing so again here.)

12)  I did mention that characters were going to have fewer attacks and that I was eliminating any abilities that gave people the humungo agility bonuses from the last games.  I did give a bonus for heightened speed.  and you asked for a character with HT Agility, Ht. Speed, and some sort of mental powers.  In other words, another MIN/MAX character focusing on the # of attacks instea of a balanced character.

Because of the MIN/MAX thing in MF, NOBODY got to choose their powers. There was a reason why you were not able to roll up your character, you were not there and I said that everyone was getting powers together from a similar source, so everyone had to generate together. I told you beofre the game that I was not holding up character generation.  I had everyone roll for you, going around the table so that it was fair.  You had a good selection of powers to choose from and I think you built a fairly good character.  I DID explain several times that higher stats would give more HP and that powers were level based and that things were going to start small.  I also explained that everyone was going to be in HS (we iscussed this during the week as well) and everyone was given 10 powers to choose from. James actually rolled all of his powers honestly (and even dropped a few that would have made his character more powerful in favor of a concept).

And basically, yes, you were told this is what we are playing, take it or leave it, but it was also discussed by those who bothered to return my calls (I mention this time and again because that is what happened.)  Nobody else is willing to GM and I am not willing to run MF until some things are sorted out, including combat, weapons, kill usage, MIN/MAXing, character problems, player interaction, and background.  So, instead of cancelling the group for the summer, we did this.  sorry if you don't like the system or the setting, but this i what the games are like.  YOU ARE HEROES and WE EXPECT EVERYONE TO ACT LIKE ONE, you can have your flaws, but try to be a good guy. This never seemed to be a problem before.  Remember Grim, he was a Necromancer! Yet, he found a way to be a good guy.  Garan was an assassin, but he was a good guy.  Raesina was a 1/2 demon ex-dictator princess who slaughtered her lovers for fun, but then she joined t he party and was a good guy.  Han hated the gods with a vengance, but made it work.  Tomas was a rouge, a gambler, and a schemer, but he was a good guy.  Even the big minotaur (and I'm embarrassed that I can't remember the name of Tom's character) who was often violent and bullying, found a way to work with the team and be the good guy.  This is how our parties work best.  As heroes who make mistakes and party later on to make up for it.  In V&V, the hero thing is partof the rules, so it's easier to define.  and its easier to run with less prep  time.

13) As for Kat, one of the reasons she is not playing is because of the player issues.  she has often dropped out of a MF game becuase of her attitude.  And she has said herself that she doens't always see it.  Yet, nobodcy says anything.  Speak up, tell her if she's being rough, etc.  Of course nobody says anything to her.  Nobody says anything to anyone about any of their porblems.  All of you have heard me talk to you  or ask you what is up.  

She WILL be adressing this problem with you all (and with some of you I know she has already.)  

However, and not because she's my GF, this is NOT the BIGGY.  They BIGGY is the way everyone has been relating to each other and the blatent rules lawyering and MIN?MAXing that has created may of the ther problems.

Yes, Kat's attitude the last few weeks made it tough for everyone, and she isn't happy about the way she treated others, or was treated for that matter.  However, that can be changed as well.

Let me know what you think



-------------------------------------PART FOUR -----------------------------------------------------
Brian received this from the GM's girlfriend 2 hours after the first post.

Well, Brian, you asked me a while ago what was wrong.

You may not be intending blame or an attack. You don't sound like
you mean that. So, I will respond now.

I told you when you joined the group that my main deal with the
group was maintaining the friendship that we all had. Note that I
said had. You blew me off then. I am not about to let that happen
again.

Everyone within the group used to hear me say how proud I was that
anyone could go to anyone else within our group and feel a level of
trust and confort. That is not so anymore.

You want to know what pissed me off so much?

My friends, the people I used to think were the closest people in
the world to me started acting like jackasses. It took me a bit of
time to realize that- because I didn't want to beleive it.

Yes, I came home in a crappy mood. Everyone knows that I am moody.
And, guess what- they were my friends in spite of it. Just like I
was friends with them for the EXACT SAME thing. There is not a
single person within this group who is not moody or touchy about
most of their lives. And that was why we were all friends. Because
we all understood that life sucks and that within the group we would
each find some kind of caring, healthy connection that made the
week's shit worth going through.

That support network is gone.

Now, instead of subtlies and gentle teasing, I am seeing people
jumping down each others throats for mistakes.

Mistakes.

Everyone makes them. Yet, why is it that when one person jumps on
someone, the rest of the group follows suit? We never used to do
that.

You want to know why people don't get all up and arms when I am not
around? It doesn't have to do anything with me, per se. The group
works best with FIVE PEOPLE. Any five. And we have seven. Neither
Jerry or myself wanted to kick anyone out. But, no one makes any
room for anyone esle anymore, either-- myself included.

I left the group for the sake of everyone else. LET ME REPEAT- I
LEFT THE GROUP FOR THE SAKE OF EVERYONE ELSE.

No one wanted to talk about what was going on. It's all hush-hush.
And, if I had pressed at that time, then I would have been the bad-
guy again, just like every other single fucking time this type of
thing has come up. I am sick of being the fall-guy and scape goat
for this group. And I am not going to let you get away with it.

As for V&V- it was asked of each person. You WERE the only person
who did not give an answer. I decided not to play, for personal
reasons that I refuse to take out on the group.

If you want to be included in decision, how about answering some
phone calls or e-mails? Hmm? How about making yourself available
to talk, instead of making people chase after you?

If you feel jumped on, Brian, it's your own fault, for the most
part. I am not saying that each one of us doesn't bear some
responsibility for it. Not once have you really tried to get along
with everyone. Nope- you sit and sulk and pout and rip people open
with your sarcasm. THAT is why no one wants to talk. We had very
little dificulty discussing this sort of thing before you brought
that trype into the group.

Instead of trying to connect with the people in this group, you
tried to coerce them into going your way. You push at people's
boudaries. If someone is that uncomfortable, they aren't going to
say anything with you treating them as though they are unimportant
enough to get along with.

That isn't how this group works. We had a good way of dealing with
things. A way that most people were comfortable with. Something
that was developed over the course of five years. It was a way that
dealt with each person's complaints while still respecting
everyone's personal privacy and comfort levels.

Guess what else, each person in this group knows damn well that they
can tell me to my face that I am being a bitch. And they have. If
they have not, then there must be a good reason. While I am mostly
to blame for not being as approachable, I am not going to put up
with the victim standpoint that every one seems to be taking these
days. I don't buy the fact that people are too afraid of me to tell
me where to go, as a paraphrase. Most likely, they are simply
dodging the issue until they feel that I am calm enough to hear them.

As far as being sensitive to other people's peeves- I have yet to
see you give a damn about this issue. So, any complaining you are
doing about this is moot, as far as I am concerned.

As far as me- you are not kicking me out of the group, Brian. I am
here to stay- so grow up and deal with it. I have spoken to
everyone in the group. If they wanted me to leave- they would have
said so, in no uncertain terms. We have done it before. The most I
have heard about myself is that I need to stop yelling, which is
true. The problems between myself and Jerry are just that- between
me and Jerry. The rest of the group knows that I am dealing with
his gm'ing styles on the player's side of things. They know that I
help write the game, and that if I am bitching about a game
mechanic, there is a reason for it. The rest of it is between Jerry
and myself, and you should stay the hell out of it- it has no
bearing on you, except for when my so-called friends' behavior makes
me want to leave my own home.

As to the rest of the game issues- no one is sharing because they
feel that opening themselves up and getting into their characters is
only going to lead to criticism or being made fun of. And this
group does not get into that as a "fun thing to do."

Here is the last thing I will say to you, Brian-

I feel that it was manipulative and underhanded of you to pull this
little charade the day before we were having a picnic.

I will tell you right now- don't come. I will not have everyone
else on pins and needles just because you couldn't take the time
before now to come forward. Jerry asked for eveyone else's input
over a month ago, and frankly- he got it. You were always
unavailable. If you want to come to the game- that is up to Jerry.
But, if I see you here for the picnic, I will have you escorted off
the property. And, this time, I don't give a RAT'S ASS whether or
not you think it is immature. I am tired of being made to feel
uncomfortable in my own house just because you can't respect anyone
else.

This picnic was to be for everyone to be friends again. Your little
stunt here almost took that opportunity away, and I'll be damned if
I am going to let your high-handed crap get in the way of friends
learning how to trust each other again.

Kat

-------------------------------------PART Five -----------------------------------------------------
Brians response to kat


TO KAT

Wow your response was to say the very least rude

I think we should sit and talk as a group tomorrow.  I didn't intend to attack you in the email.  It was not a stunt.  For the first time I was trying to open a dialog with the entire group, for every ones benefit.  No one has really come to me with any complaints (Jerry has mentioned a couple things several weeks after the fact however I didn't have much recollection of them) I tried to curb any behavior that bothered people. I believe I did, since no one repeated the complaints

I show up to play and have fun with everyone, anytime a complaint was voiced I tried to correct it.  As Jerry and I have said the communication is poor to nonexistent.  My email was an attempt to get things in the open where everyone can discuss them as well as anything that bothers them.  I though things were going well and was surprised by the end of the game.  I don't have a problem with anyone else in the group and don't think I have any serious issues with you other than the attitude that you came to the game with.


This part would be better done in person but I don't think you're up to it.
Responses to your online post:

1)
"Now, instead of subtlies and gentle teasing, I am seeing people
jumping down each others throats for mistakes."
It seemed that most of the jumping down throats was done by you.


2)
"No one wanted to talk about what was going on. It's all hush-hush.And, if I had pressed at that time, then I would have been the bad-guy again, just like every other single fucking time this type of thing has come up. I am sick of being the fall-guy and scrape goat for this group. And I am not going to let you get away with it."
I personally would have preferred things to be discussed, that is what I am trying to do now I don't see you or any one else as the bad guy, the stuff I emailed were the issues as I see them.  Not to blame any one but to for once simply open a dialogue to them.  

3)
As for V&V- it was asked of each person. You WERE the only person who did not give an answer. I decided not to play, for personal reasons that I refuse to take out on the group.
They question asked was "first of All, Metalfyre is not ending soon. with that said, I would eventually like to run a Superhero based game, so: What kind of Campaign World and Game System are you interested in",  that question is very different from asking who wants to switch games.

4)
If someone is that uncomfortable, they aren't going to say anything with you treating them as though they are unimportant enough to get along with.
I never intentionally mistreated anyone, but if I did rub some one the wrong way the only way to improve that is to talk about what's bothering them.

5)
As far as being sensitive to other people's peeves- I have yet to see you give a damn about this issue. So, any complaining you are doing about this is moot, as far as I am concerned.
You totally missed the point, again I don't really have any problems with the Metalfyre group, my point was that if someone had an issue with me I have not heard about it.

6)
If you feel jumped on, Brian, it's your own fault, for the mostpart. I am not saying that each one of us doesn't bear some responsibility for it. Not once have you really tried to get along with everyone. Nope- you sit and sulk and pout and rip people open with your sarcasm. THAT is why no one wants to talk. We had very little dificulty discussing this sort of thing before you brought that trype into the group.
The only person who has jumped on me is you.  Wow you say I sit and sulk, during Metalfyre I showed up with a good attitude ready to play, can you say the same!  I think you are overestimating my influence on the group, I don't think I'm the major reason that people can't talk.

7)
The rest of the group knows that I am dealing with his gm'ing styles on the player's side of things. They know that I help write the game, and that if I am bitching about a game mechanic, there is a reason for it. The rest of it is between Jerry and myself, and you should stay the hell out of it- it has nobearing on you
I don't want to be in the middle of anything, I only said what many others saw, and that was you jumping on jerry over relatively small issues in some games.


8)
I feel that it was manipulative and underhanded of you to pull this little charade the day before we were having a picnic.
Once again this is not about you.  I just found out that V&V is going to run longer than a few weeks; I didn't see many of the issues Jerry originally voiced being discussed let alone resolved so it seemed time to voice them.  I hope your picnic is pleasant and hope later on that we can discuss some of this without any one yelling screaming or being verbally attacked by anyone that won't solve anything .


9)
As far as me- you are not kicking me out of the group, Brian. I am
here to stay- so grow up and deal with it
Again you totally missed the point,  I have no desire to try to kick anyone out of the group including you.  I repeat what I want is voice the issues that I and other people have expressed, so that they can be solved.  In addition to the issues I voiced, I proposed a solution to any problems that I could think of one for.  I didn't see any problem solving, positive statements in your dissertation.  
(Yes it was simple stuff For example how to avoid splitting up the group, and basically telling someone when something bothers them)  There is no bad guy as I see it.
________________________________________________________

That's the saga so far tomorrow I will see the group and hopefully have a productive session discussing & resovling issues,  however as I am the odd man out it could result in kat being very nasty and looking for someone to be the bad guy and it could be very unpleasant.

Ewwwwwwwwwwww WOW!

I've had some dysfunctional sessions myself, both as ref and player, but this definitely is out of my ken, thank goodness but I do NOT envy you or any of your group - but e-mail is a very tough medium to 'resolve differences' in, especially interpersonal, especially in a group dynamic situation and I hope it works better for you than it ever has for me.

Usually, in our games, usually Warhammer FRP, when the player-player antagonism started interfering in the game itself, for no good in-game reason, failing ref and other player attempts and intervention, distraction and diffusion, everyone (very thankfully) seemed to almost telepathically, mutually decide that we all needed a break from gaming for a bit, and usually people cooled off, calmed down, and came back to the table later (couple months, etc) with different ideas, personalities and character concepts, with only traces of the baggage that was threatening the whole game.

This doesn't appear to be the case here and looks like it never has been. An awful lot of conscious denial of obvious problems, self-destraction to ignore the problems and hope they go away, and attempting to remedy the symptoms rather than address the underlying issues, combined with the worst of all, tight-lipped "if you don't know what's wrong, I'm not gonna explain it" behavior which almost negates ANY group effort of cooperation and compromise.

To me, this sounds more a job for sitting down in a NORMAL gathering and DISCUSSING problems (well, as normal a discussion as you can have while mentioning "octopus", "sorcerer" and "metalfyre"). There is potential here for there to be more wrong than simple dissatisfaction with the game or other players' game behavior - this sounds more like genuine unaddressed and maybe repressed interpersonal conflicts or even aversions with possible catalysts in totally unrelated areas.

I am not versed in psychology or sociology however, so maybe its just a 'hiccup' in your gaming group, but either way, I still advise cautious approach and delicate handling of the situation and wish your group the best and most "releasing" outcome and resolution and continued friendship among everyone.

Myself and at least one other player had no idea there were any other problems that the obvious  GM's girlfriend who had been openly hostile

It seems as though you are being given ample opportunity to leave the group.  What's keeping you there?  Honestly, I wouldn't want to be involved in that situation.  If someone gave me an out, I'd probably jump on it.  :)

Hi there,

And in agreement with Dr. V, wowsers. The hell of it is that I can see enormous parallels with experiences of mine from the 1980s ... and one big difference.

The difference is that back then, we didn't have email and any discussion of these matters had to be face to face. Or rather, either things got resolved through behavior - person X just stopped showing up - or they got resolved through discussion, whether privately between two people or among the group as a whole.

But email, and other things too like cell phones, really change all that. The dialogue seems to me to be a weird kind of perpetually connected disconnectedness, which seems to prevent actual discussion while masquerading as inclusive discussion.

Brian, it would help me to understand better what your goals are in posting this material. As data, it's valuable, but I'm not sure whether you've met your needs already by posting it in the first place, or whether there's a specific point or inquiry you want to make, for purposes of discussion. Please clarify a bit so this thread can focus on what you're looking for.

Best,
Ron

10% of the blame falls on me since I suggested he post this here because it is valuable data. As for any discussion, I don't know of any, but if Brian or anyone else can see a line to explore, that'd be great.

Essentially the problem is Jerry and Kat. (some of you may remember me bitching about them before. I had changed their names then, but fuck it since Brian used their names. He also posted the name of Jerry's game. Please don't steal it)

Kat has some serious social problems, obviously. She thinks she can act all moody and shit like that and we'll just be there for her anyway. She just doesn't get that people judge other people by how they make us feel when we're around them and she make people walk on eggshells because we never know how she's going to react.

This problem is compounded by Jerry who has a serious white knight complex and Kat is his damsel whom he battles dragons for. Hence why he's very defensive of her in the above emails. She is quite adept at pointing out dragons. This enables her, lets her continue with her undesirable behavior because he'll defend her so she doesn't have to change her behavior. He also has his own social problems, which I don't have a complete handle on but it involves his family (doesn't it always?)

But it goes deeper. He also wants to be the father figure/leader/den mother of the group. But because he's got problems, he's had to gather people who are even worse off than he is socially. This allows his to distract himself from his own problems.

"Jerry, you really have to work on this."

"You're right... Aaron has been really depressed lately."

He has surround himself with people who are more broken than he is and, more importantly, that he can control. (Yes, me too until I got better) This is probably why Brian isn't working out and they're being oh-so subtile about making him feel unwelcome. He won't be their pet, like most of the rest of the group.

In either case, I had left the group and after today, there is a change neither Brian nor the wife will either. They're going over there for a pinic and the game. Good gravy

Jack, thanks for the clarification.  While I've never really been involved in such a situation through gaming (thank god), I can dig what's going on.  My advice to Brian has now become: Run.  Screaming optional.

While 'valuable data' it may be, I feel maybe this is really a much more subjective, personal situation that, while is I guess ok to be posted on a forum, isn't going to really be resolved or helped much past some of the obvious red flags being pointed out that this, indeed, is something beyond a standard 'social contract' crisis - I would again encourage an actual discussion of the *underlying* issues and problems with everyone, if that is still possible or hasn't been done fully, and failing that, I have to agree that the best thing for people stressed out and uncomfortable with the situation to do is to make their cordial but firm departure from the group, as this particular collective has a high level of self-enabled co-dependency, etc. I wouldn't want to be in it either, and sometimes, you just can't save the day and trying to do so, in spite of the obvious unwillingness to BE saved, isn't going to lead anywhere good. Again I wish everyone the best in this but I think some alternate plans need to be considered, in the interest of practicality.

Studies have shown repeatedly that email is a *bad* way to resolve conflicts. Do NOT do this in email. It's begging for trouble.

I expect fully that studies will show that message boards are a *bad* way to convince anyone of anything or to change ideas (because of the lack real-time multi-lateral of give and take that comprises traditional argument or debate)

I'm not sure if the poster had permission to put up everyone else's correspondence but it's ettiquite to make sure you do.

In terms of my take on it:
I've think I've seen (I need to read it carefully again) much worse. These are my observations:

1. If the GM is done with a game, it's over. If a player is done with a character, it's over. If a player is done with a game it oughta be over for him/her. There's no point in arguing about any of this.

2. Taking a break is (usually) a good thing.

3. To my read the responsiblity for what's been going on was spread evenly. Possibly with the exception of the post itself if it was done without permission. I would go to the Face-to-Face conversation and see if everyone's as snippy in person.

I'd highly advise that before quitting. Email is a TERRIBLE way to go about this.

-Marco

Quote from: ethan_greerMy advice to Brian has now become: Run.  Screaming optional.

Probably the best advice. IMing with Brian has led me (us) to believe that the main reason Jerry just doesn't ask him to leave is because he has to prove Brian wrong first. The whole role-playing vs roll-playing thing.

Of course, I haven't spoken with Jerry since he sent me an email about his changes to V&V based on advances made in the RPGs in the last 5 years. I asked him what advances was he refering to, since I knew damned well he didn't mean anything we talk about here and he responded curtly about whether that was a real question or the start of another arguement over what's wrong with roleplaying. You know what, I get that from people on the internet all the time. I don't need any in RL.

(JERRY)  I  am  responding to this post, and your other one, together.
To begin with, calling the rest of the players pussies and referring to a comment I made along with others as bullshit was extremely rude and set the tone for this entire situation.


(BRIAN)   RESPONSE
I included my self as of the pussies who did not speak up when they should, take it the way it was intended
I used the word Bull
I put on the kid gloves when responding to kat

(JERRY)  Puting this up the day before I'm trying to get the rest of the group together for a "fun" afternoon and picnic, thereby setting a tone of tension which did not reviously exist concerning a getogether, that was rude.

(JERRY)  So, let's get that straight.        (BRIAN)  (did you actually reads kats email, if you think I was rude)


(JERRY)  I have already stated that the decision to switch games WAS mine and that I did mention it to a few players, even that night.  If people objected, they did not HAVE to play.  That was also spelled out.  I am not going over that again and again.  The post about switching "in the future" was before the debacle of the last game.

We switched, live with it or wait.  You have an option.

(JERRY)  As for jumping down everyone's throat, that HAS been done, in varying ways, by most of us, whether its by bullying the group, constantly undermining other people's tactics, or what not.  There have been several times that I have tried to subtly mention to people that they should not do something because its "not in character" or whatnot and some just don't listen.  For example, give up on the Strongbow, I've been blantant about not having it available and you just don't seem to want to listen.  I siad they don't normally make them for minotaurs and that they are expesnive and besides, I wanted you to wait.  Buit every town we go into you have to press every artizan you can about getting a strongbow.  This began to REALLY piss me off.  And you do this with a lot of things.  If I tewll aaron tha there's no info on his cards, etc, in the local library, he goes on with his life.  If I tell Julie that the maguffin is not going to factor into this adventure, she lets it go.  If I tell James that the Guardians are not here or don't want to contact him now, he lets it go.  But you constantly go for the biggest, strongest, point efficient thing you can.  That's not Role Playing, its Wargaming.

(BRIAN)   When I go into a town I ask if there is a strongbow, when it's not there I go with my life as well

(JERRY)  Yes, XP come slower.  All of my games over the last few years work that way.  (Ask the rest of the group.)It was told to you when you started that MF was a game of balance and that improvement was like life, it takes time.  Nobody else is focusing slely on their stats and improvements.  You do, by far, the most damage in the group.  When picking a character race, you went for points and bonuses instead of role playing.  why did Julie and Kat pick elfs, because they like the nature oriented lifestyle, the clans, and the romantacism, not because of the +1 DEX, -1 Bod.  Why did Dan pick a Kashir (which has the most Racial Flaws of the basic races), because he liked the honor code, the respect for nature, and the lifestyle.  Why did Aaron pick Vreeman, because he liked the racial color and the ability to play a ferret.  He specifically took a character flaw, for NO BONUS POINTS and built a weaker character, just so he could have a good story and personality.  why did Ross pick a Vraati?  Because he wanted to delve into the pack mentality and the nature oriented wild life, including the survival andconflicts with the evil ones.  why did James pick a Human, because it had NO inherent racial bonuses and was a normal.  Humans get 3 rerolls during character generation.  Even though James didn't always get what he wanted, he GAVE AWAY his rerolls to aaron so that Aaron could try to roll some of the perks he wanted.  NOBODY ELSE chose a character race based on the pluses and minuses.  And they all deliberately chose characters that would be in balance with the party.  Nobody tried to max out more than one stat.  Nobody tried to build and elf with high BOD or a superstrong vreeman.  Nobody else tried to make a superstrong minotaur with above average intellegence AND a high Strength AND multiple attacks AND maxing out weapon skills, etc.  Then they picked weapo ns to fit their role, not the best point values.  Elfs use swords, and julie likes being a swashbuckler.  There were better weapons, but she took her clan weapons.  James wanted to be a shooter.  A bow is faster and easier, but the XBOW is more his style, so he took a light XBOW, not even a heavy.  Kat originally took daggers, as an assassin, but when she saw that James was focusing on them as his backup, they decided that she would switch to HTH and Martial Arts as her fucus after the first XP doling so that they could be more diversified.  Aaron has stuck with his staff and avaioded focusing on melee (though as a vreeman, that would be a bonus) because it fit his character and didn't overbalance the party, he is the most powerful mage.  Dan chose a staff, because he is a mage.  As a Kashir, he could have gone weapon heavy, but, he's even said that that's the job of the others.  They did NOT Min/Max.  aaron spent a lot of points o n his time magic, he's good at it.  But he also spent points on less useful perks becaus ethey fit his idea of a flawed character AND he deliberately did not take many points in the magics that Jintal and Lnikai were focusing on.  Nobody else is obsessing about getting the best magic items or trying to increase their Stats that way.

(BRIAN)   Interesting since you said over and over that you were amazed no one took a MIN/MAXED orc with incredible PD, damage and strength  my minotaur was much more balanced than that thing was.  

(JERRY)  THAT IS WHAT I MEAN BY MIN/MAXING

As for the magic items, everyone HAS complained about you taking most of the items they want, including writing down items on your character sheet that others have already asked for.  I even mentioned it to you at one game when you handed over Lanikai's sheet, yet it still happens.

(BRIAN)   Often the loot is posted online where I see it last, or passed around at the beginning of the game where I see last, after coming later that every one else from work so your argument doesn't hold much water and many of the magic items can not be used by the heavies in the party anyway.

(JERRY)  You went on and on and on blaming the party about not going along with Lanikai when he went with the priest, blaming them for your poor judgement.  But, what you refused to admit was that the party haad already decided to get some sleep and wait until night fall.  Everyone else did that.  Why should they change what the party has decided just to follow you around?  This is what I meant by splitting up the party.  The same thing happened with the giant snake and the trapped chest.  I admit, Danock has been better about this, but every time this happened, you blamede the party for not following you, after they'd already decided to do something else. Then you complained and cajoled to get them to spend resources healing you and then you spent extra time looking for more ways to heal faster instead of just accepting the consequences of your actions.

(BRIAN)   I didn't go on about it very much, except when someone else brought it up. Maybe others did behind my back, I made decisions and so did others no big deal.

(JERRY)  To interrogate, you threaten.  You apply the minimum amount of effort if threats don't work, increasing the danger until they confess.  Once they confess, you stop.  You don't continue to "practice" on them (one of your quotes.)

And as for the river worm, IT threatened and eventually attacked the boat.  At sea, you were just looking for something to kill.  Even after pewople asked you to stop.

(BRIAN)   There was not very much else to do, I don't recall people or characters complaining

(JERRY)  As for Lanikai and the summoning.  Even after I explained that binding a creature against your will into themace was an evil thing, you did it anyway to get the best point efficiency, pissing off everyone else.

(BRIAN)   Jerry you knew want I wanted to do with summoning before I created the character many character points were spent in that area, I don't see how you can try and push that in my face now.

(JERRY)  You know what happened to your mace?  The group decided to steal the mace, make it look like a robbery, then unbind the spirit and give the mace away.  That's what they did, as a group, so as not to hurt your feelings even though you COMPLETELY ignored their wishes about enslavement.

(BRIAN)   Same answer as the last

(JERRY)  Lastly, if the people who wanted to quit wished to step foreward, I would let them.  They are not comfortable.  People are just as wary about getting reamed by you and your sarcasm as they are of Kat's attitude.  And I've said that to you more than once in the past.

(BRIAN)  
I noticed you didn't respond to all of the issues I think I had couple of good positive points that could be benificial. To summarize:

·   My point was that it would have been better that if we sat as a group and were told, hey everybody I think we need to switch and this is why.  I personally would have been more supportive.

·   However I think my point is still valid, It would be better if the group stayed together even in town and we could all experience more stuff with less people left out and every one having something to do.  As the GM you can easily declare that the day is long enough for every one to stay together and still stop at all the shops in town.

·   There is a difference between the characters we have on paper and the Players that run them.  They can know different levels of information and role-play it appropriately

·   I think I disagree with your philosophy, sure my character may not know about it or be involved. However this a way to involve PLAYERS whose characters are not in the scene.  This is a good time for (I think you would call it) kibitzing, where non involved players can offer suggestion to involved PLAYERS.  I think your issue with that would be stealing some one else's thunder by coming up with the great idea first but If done right I would help keep every one involved and entertained


This part is about V&V exclusively and has no positive value, I supposes we could go back and forth on this for a long time.   To be fair though Don't see many positive issue solving ideas in yours or cats emails though.
You addressed selective points that you could easily defend, but you didn't address these:

·   I think I was very considerate of your min/maxing concern in the email sent you.  I basically said My first choice in superhero type is a mechaneer  I may not have spelled it out but I implied that you could build the character any way you saw far as long as I got that.  I don't think that was unreasonable.

·   My second choice was a character that had lots of attacks, I really didn't ask to be strong, accurate or particularly dangerous I simply wanted lots of actions. Again I don't think that was unreasonable.

·   Without knowing the rules of the game mechanics that statement is doesn't mean very much, how could it if we don't have any real idea what the impact is.

·   At this point No I do no begrudge James anything, but Before the fact is a different story though.

·   As for holding up character generation that's untrue, I was 30 minutes later than everyone else because I work till 6:30  and when I got there I could easily rolled dice selected powers without holding any one up.  I not saying the dice rolls were unfair I'm saying that I should have got to roll them

·   End result is that I don't hate V&V.  I resent not having dialog on what game we are playing next week, not rolling for a character that I am stuck with for a long time, and not really knowing what's going on and why?

Um, everybody,

This seems too elaborate to be a practical joke.  But it also seems to have the substance of one.

Unless Brian actually responds the numerous concerns and questions already presented, I'd say let it drop.  Whatever's happening here right now has nothing to do with why I come to the Forge.

Take care,
Christopher

Thanks for the advice or suggestions,  I think recieved what I wanted and that was a couple of views from outside the group.

I am going finally see and discuss stuff in person with the group and that should settle many things one way or the other.  Thanks

Hi Brian,

Just wanted to chime in with the grabbing of head, screaming, clawing at eyes, etc. that was pointed at above.

On a more productive note, this is pretty much a lot of the social contract issues I've been pointing out lately.  Any grouping of humans can either be focused on its intended goal(business, hobby, sport, whatever), or drift, more and more, over to the classic ego-based power structure("I'm the Alpha! I'm the Alpha!").  You'll notice that the more you drift to the ego grouping, the less effective you tend to be at whatever the group purpose is(in this case, having fun roleplaying).

It seems that folks have identified a lot of emotional baggage going on, and pointed out the red flags.  

Now I'm going to give you a piece of (more than just roleplaying) advice:

You can't reason with unreasonable people.

From the above examples, you've seen issues dodged, subjects changed, etc, and the very reason is that there is no "reason" behind much of the behavior, just emotion.  You can't reason with emotion, and you can't reason with folks who are operating from that as their sole basis of behavior(especially when they won't acknowledge it).  

They will provide all manners of nifty "example for example" excuses, but none address the cycle of problems, they'll give you just enough "reasonableness" to goad your ego into hanging around to prove yourself right, clear your name, or whatever.  In the end, its a futile game.

What makes it really hard is that some of these people may, in fact, be good folks who you like, who just happen to be acting irrationally.  Some might be people who you're just used to having "around" as habit.  Others, with reflection, may turn out to be people who you never liked at all.

I highly recommend checking out books on alcholism, or abusive relationships as a real guide to what's going on with your group, although it will simply provide insight, not answers on how to fix the situation.

Chris

Quote from: BankueiHi Brian,

Now I'm going to give you a piece of (more than just roleplaying) advice:

You can't reason with unreasonable people.


Chris

The collary to this is that everyone (including you) thinks they're reasonable.

-Marco