The Forge Archives

I'm following a discussion on the link here . . .

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=7187&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Which basically boils down to a discussion between Greyorm and Madelf. Madelf wants to get a fictional game developed, and Greyorm is detailing history in religion.

I belive I can see Greyorm's point of view. The reason for the large comment on Paganism was not just for our education. Paganism has suffered a great deal of oppression. It's still widely regarded as evil, and women (I think in the thousands) were burned at steak or otherwise (I could give you more gritty details if you like), simply as an excuse for corporate or (dare I say: patriarchal) power. Paganism in itself was a collection of some of the most peaceful religions ever. The most factual work I have to go by, unfortunately, is the Encyclopedia of Wicca -Raven Grimassi, and a few closely related books. But I do believe I'm correct if not entirely accurate in stating the oppression.

Therefore, in some ways, IMO we owe it in our society to oppose this continuation of berating paganism, and support its survival.

-------on the other hand---------

I also see Madelf's point of view, and I think it gets a little frustrating that the fictional world need be challenged, when it should defy absolutely anything in our history. I would pull back the statement that paganism, according to research, seems to lack morality (insinuation: evil). I could see: "Paganism seems to lack morality, but I haven't done the research" or: "In my game: Paganism is evil. Done deal." Either way, I have to agree with Greyorm, but it's not really a game issue. The game process should continue unhindered. That's why I started this thread.

I suppose I'm posting to prevent another interesting thread having to go into a moderator issue or something like it. I also did so to hopefully contribute my support of Paganism.

My next tack would probably have to be discussed away from the Forge entirely, it's a completely social issue, unrelated to roleplaying (and I'd be happy to do so, on perhaps another of my favourites: www.crimethinc.tk > Forums > Everything Else > Paganism and anarchy). Hope you folks don't mind me mentioning the forum, completely unrelated to the Forge).

My opinion is that oppression of paganism is deeply intertwined with feminism. And these are deeply intertwined with rape issues, which becomes a socio-political machine within religion. I get into this, related to some personal turmoil with a good friend. And, back on track . . .

This is why I've started clearly planning a dark game on the backburner specifically regarding rape. Ron's Sorcery game showed me it does exist in the roleplaying industry. But I have some different angles about it I'd like to try. I have no idea how long it would take. To be really frank: It's about being sent by mystical forces to torture the hell out of rapists and their demonic posessions. Lol, you can see I'm pissed.

I greatly appreciate it if you did read all of that. Irregardless, it's been fun. Ciao.

Also, if you're wondering why I made this huge connection with paganism and rape issues, I'll go into more detail elsewhere.

QuoteI would pull back the statement that paganism, according to research, seems to lack morality (insinuation: evil). I could see: "Paganism seems to lack morality, but I haven't done the research" or: "In my game: Paganism is evil. Done deal."

It seems I should be more careful when throwing terms like morality around. None of the above is what I was trying get at. I'll try to explain a little better.
When speaking of pagan religions lacking in morality, I did not mean it as lacking in good morals. I meant it as a lack of imposed morality entirely, at least in the sense that modern (predominantly christian) morals are perceived. When the religion has no defining morality in that sense, it does not mean that it is evil. It is simply neither evil nor good, but simply is what it is. Societal values are a different matter. I'm working on a premise something along the lines of the Wiccan creed "And you harm none, do as you will". I see pagan religions having much less in the way of involved moral judgements, and trying to dictate the personal details of peoples lives. That is all I was getting at.
Even this may not be entirely accurate to the real history of pagan religions, it's just my take on the idea. And what I was trying to present as the basis for the fictional religion for my game.
I did not intend to imply that pagans are evil, and if someone was offended by my poor wording I apologize.

While I'm sure there's some basis to your theory that oppression of paganism is tied in with feminism and rape, I'm not sure I see it. Though I would be curious to hear your reasoning.

Female pagans were not, and indeed are not, alone in being persecuted. Christianity tried very hard to eradicate pagan religions, and I doubt they did it with an intention of oppressing women in particular. From my perspective it seems that the primary driving goal of the Christian church was power. They wanted to wipe out paganism, because they wanted to be the ones controlling the religion. If they could control the religion they could control the people. Pretty much any large scale religious organization is to some extent (if not primarily) about imposing the views of that religion on people. It is about control and domination. This is the root cause of religious wars, one group trying to impose their belief system and values on another.

I'm sure that statement will get me even more flack than mistakenly implying pagans are evil, so let me try and defuse it by stating that I don't think organized Christianity, is evil either.
I just believe that it has been responsible for some very tragic happenings over the course of history.

Thanks, perma, while I appreciate the commentary, this is completely off-topic for RPG Theory. The issue has been resolved between Calvin and myself as "not trying to model reality," so using a historical basis for the practice of magic and the interweave between society and religion becomes a moot point for Calvin's game.

As the moderators are away at GenCon, I'm going to step-in and suggest no more posting to this thread.

If someone wants to discuss how various religions are treated in various games and why they might be treated that way, how to use them to better effect, or how to model them historically within the mechanics, or something similar, a seperate thread would be in order.

Quote from: greyormAs the moderators are away at GenCon, I'm going to step-in and suggest no more posting to this thread.

If someone wants to discuss how various religions are treated in various games and why they might be treated that way, how to use them to better effect, or how to model them historically within the mechanics, or something similar, a seperate thread would be in order.

Isn't that what perma just did?  He saw that it was off-topic for Calvin's fantasy magic thread, and started a new thread to discuss the question of pagan religions in RPGs apart from Calvin's fantasy world.  

I know that this has come up in many of my games.  My current Vinland game is syncretic rather than purely pagan.  Syncretic means like how Santeria (i.e. Voodoo) combines Christianity and native African beliefs.  The Vinlanders were exposed to and nominally accepted Christianity, but they also retained their older Norse beliefs (i.e. similar to what is called Asatru in modern-day).  It certainly is a question I have thought a bunch about in the game, about how I should portray it.  One of the PCs is a gydja -- a priestess or prophetess in the old tradition.  So a lot of religious/magical issues have come up.  

I have to go, but I just thought I'd mention it...

Heya John,

I mentioned this to Calvin in private, but I might as well state it here, since I'm more clear about my reasonsing.

My concern is that perma's thread starts things off on the wrong foot for the topic, because it deals too much with the issue between Calvin and I, rather than being it's own issue seperated from any disagreements between us.

Simply, I'm leery of it because of how the referencing could contaminate the discussion (turning into a discussion of the source of the thread rather than the ideas in the thread, if you see what I mean). If everyone believes they can avoid that then, certainly, go at it like rabbits as they say. It is a very interesting subject.

My apologies, Greyorm. I agree. My interest is strictly about the paganism, and I'd rather discuss that with the rest out of the way. Moderators are certainly welcome to alter it accordingly, but I realize that's rarely done. Either way, I'll abide by the suggestion and let the thread sink.