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I wanted to post the assumptions that I had in making magic Keywords for my Shadow World campaign. This should serve two goals. One, if anyone wants to resurrect that old campaign, then this may be helpful. But it also stands as an example of how the edifices of magic that are found in Hero Wars (this was all done before Hero Quest; though I think most of the conversion notes remain approximately the same for HQ), can be ported over or converted to other settings. Homeland Keyword creation seems simple to me, and Occupations can be stolen whole cloth. So that leaves only Magic as the tricky part.

Animism
SW Animists, Shamans, Druids, and some other classes all convert to the HW Animist model. The worship of "local gods" (gods who actually exist in some fashion on Shadow World) would also count as Animist for these purposes. For example, the relationship that the Emerald people have with the great tree at the center of their forest is very Animist (would be a "great spirit"). They don't worship it so much as give it great respect, and presumably each of these people have their own relationship with it. The same can be said of the Yinka volcano god who seems very much like a tremendous spirit. It's a slightly problematic decision in that there are really no substantive differences between gods and spirits in SW. But it all seems to come down to the fact that local gods seem to be worshipped most often in the ecstatic manner, and their priests seem like shamans to me. And their link to something like a tree or volcano seems very much like a spirit.

These SW characters should the same sorts of Abilities that you find in HW Animist keywords. In SW, these classes all have spells that theoretically are about manipulating nature in some fashion. Further, the SW setting does include the ideas of alternate planes of order and chaos. Spirits in the setting are defined primarily as being servants of the gods. Some secondary literature proposes dealing with them in a fashion much more like HW spirits. Even if from the gods, however, I think that it's safe enough to assume that the autonomy that the spirits have is enough to establish them as having traditions of their own locally. After all, the spirits have been around and doing their own thing on SW for many millennia. So, taking a cue from the secondary literature, and some other feel elements, I ruled that often spirits are in the planes of Order (for spirits of Orhan) or Chaos (spirits of Charon), requiring the Abilities that Animists have in HW to perceive these spirits, contact them, and otherwise interact with them.

This does stretch the SW continuity in some ways. First, spirits in SW are not incorporeal. They manifest with bodies. These bodies do seem to be surreal on occasion, however, as their natural magic abilities seem to give them abilities that would indicate that they're not "real" bodies. Or rather that they are assembled on the material plane for the purposes of interaction. For example, Kel, a river spirit is portrayed as having a body formed of the water of the river. I like the idea that spirits manifest like this, so I ruled that they are, in fact, mainly from these other planes, and that their appearances on the material plane is via magical manipulation of substances. So, while they can have very real physical effects, destroying a body of a spirit would only be removing it's manifestation from this world, and it would continue to exist in the plane from which it originated.

This all works well with the HW rules, as charms and such would be physical objects that channel the energy of the spirit from the other plane in much the same way that a manifested body would. Locality of spirits, such as worship of "local god" spirits, would represent the mapping of that spirit anchoring he plane of order or chaos to a specific place in the material world. Less powerful spirits would have less of a fixing power, thus explaining the ability of the spirit to be contacted anywhere.

Basically this all maps well enough that little if any changes are needed.

Theism
All channeling spell users that don't fall under the Animism umbrella above should fall under Theism. Channeling refers to gaining power form the gods generically. It's very cool to me that everything from Paladins to Healers, to Clerics can all be worked out with one set of assumptions. Again, worship of local gods will have to be worked out on a case-by-case basis with most being Animist. But I could actually see some local gods being worshipped both ways. For example, the Yinka god could have two cults worshipping in different manners. The fact that the leader of the religion is listed as a Cleric doesn't really tell you anything, however, as the Shaman class (what I think would be appropriate) is a class from the secondary rules, and thus not available in the primary rules. Hence, they list him as a cleric by necessity as the other choice would be animist, which in Rolemaster distinctly refers to animal spirits.

Anyhow, obviously worship of the Lords of Orhan, or their dark counterparts on Charon are appropriate for Theism. Orhan and Charon are moons the former like a largish version of ours, and the latter a small blood red moon with an erratic orbit. Instead of going to the Otherworld at appropriate times, the character is actually projected to the appropriate moon. In a way, the power of the gods makes these places "otherworldly" and the nature of that reality can be left open to debate. It should suffice to say that the setting has a "hard" background, and that as such, anyone trying to fly to the moon would have to deal with a lot of hard vacuum. Further there are problems with the functioning of technology in space around the planet. Meaning that the only way to get to the moons is via magic. Anyhow, functionally it's the same as an Otherworld, whether they actually exist in our universe or not.

Some few other gods have their own small dimensions, or live on other planes. These count distinctly as Otherworlds.

The "rank" system from HW, and the attendant mastery implied, map well to the spell abilities of the SW characters, IMO. That is, spells of up to about 10th level feel a lot like augments to me, spells to 20th level seem like feats, and spells beyond that are usually very much "more of same." That is, a spell of divination becomes "Divination True" which is just a more powerful version of the same thing. In fact, this is so common in the RM spell system that Feats easily can cover all the abilities that these spells would imply and a lot more.

In any case, I think it's a tremendous improvement to have the abilities gained from a god specific to that god. In fact a lot of secondary literature on the rules indicates that clerics should be allowed to take spell lists from other classes in order to make them seem more tailored to their religion. A cleric of Phaon, the sun god, for example would take spells from the Fire Law base list for the Magician class. This always seemed like a stopgap, however, and I think that going with abilities all based off of the god's affinities is where the system would have gone had it been allowed to do so.

Healers and healing are a special case. It would almost suffice to simply say that they were members of the worship of Eissa the goddess of life, healing, etc. The one problem with this, however, is that Healers per se in RM have an odd ability. They take the wounds from the wounded, and then heal themselves in a trance state. They are actually incapable of actually healing in any other way. Basically, this would require that the character have an ability of Transference that they would have to roll against to first transfer the wound. I'd roll this just like a normal healing magic check. Then a second roll for the character to heal themselves.

It's very important, then, that other Healing magic be less useful. Otherwise this makes Healers less powerful than others with healing magic. Firstly, I'd severely limit healing abilities to few character types, and make it of very specific use. One of the neat things about RM healing is that it's never generic. That is, for every type of wound there is a particular spell to take care of it. This may be more detail than many people want to handle, but I think that it adds a lot to the feel of healing magic. Thus, I'd make spells to stop bleeding (basic first aid in modern cultures) fairly common. But actually knitting muscles back together, healing breaks, etc, I'd make people take abilities like you find in HW that are more specific such as Mend Break, Heal Cut, Heal Burn, etc. No generic healing abilities. And only healers would be allowed to have abilities to address more serious wounds like organ damage, nervous system damage, etc. It is in genre, BTW, in SW for characters to have some understanding of these things (technology levels are actually quite high in some ways).

Maybe more importantly, in SW Healers (not clerics, like in RM in general), can revive people from the dead. I've always felt that this was too easy, but I didn't want to be rid of it entirely. So basically I ruled that a hero quest had to be involved. Other related abilities I left intact, however, like the ability to stabilize folks and prevent rot of the dead (so they could be returned to whole bodies), preventing souls from getting far away (which I figured would make the hero quest easier), etc.

I'll address Lay Healers below.

All magic in the SW world involves he employment of "The Essence" the magical power of Shadow World. This includes Channeling. Gods are merely extremely powerful users who have the ability to bestow power via sending the Essence to those who need it. One power that such characters have is to channel the essence in a raw fashion for a variety of purposes. For characters that do this a simple Channeling ability should suffice. This might even pertain to Animist types as they are by SW standards "of the Realm of Channeling".

Sorcery
Using HW Sorcery seems to me to be the best way to cover most "Essence" spell casters, and some "Mentalism" as well. These are casters that use the Essence that exists in an "ambient" fashion in the world in and throughout everything. They cover most of your book-using spell casting types, if you will. The Magician and Illusionist classes and the like use formulaic spells to manipulate these forces to produce effects. They can specialize in pretty much anything (the secondary literature is rife with options like runemasters), but they all seem to have the distinction of learning from books.

The point is, that, unlike HW Sorcery, the SW cognates do not worship anything necessarily. But the other mechanics work well it seems to me. So what I ruled here is that, where necessary, the essence itself takes the place of the worshipped individual (or the anti-essence AKA the Unlife). Not to be worshipped, but to be studied. Like all the HW essences wrapped up into one. Then each spell is just looking at manipulation of some particular part of the Essence. It maps well enough there.

The Otherworld for these users I think of as the mental place they have to get to in order to cast spells. Not really an Otherworld, but the rules translate fine, IMO.

Grimoires map to chunks of spell lists very well. So a particular Grimoire might represent the first ten levels of spells from Fire Law, for example. By giving them names and character, however, I think it really improves the feel of the magic. Again a lot of optional rules in RM deal with how to allow players to use spells at a higher level of power than they normally can or distort spell effects. I find the idea of a rating for each spell to be much simpler and more intuitive. So a big win on that transition.

Mysticism and Mentalism
Though not in HQ, I used the mysticism in HW to map to the monk and warrior monk character classes. This worked very well without modification, IMO. SW Mentalism wielders, who use the essence inherent in their own selves, seem to not require books (actually, it's not clear to be precise). This is simply modeled by players taking a Keyword that just has straight abilities that mimic entire spell lists. Most of them are things like invisibility anyhow, so most spells are just "more of same" again, and easily modeled by a single score. Lay Healers, who do "normal" healing with mental abilities, and apparently a lot of actual medical knowledge, fall into this category. I'd just buy them like a modern doctor, complete with specialties.

Hybrids
This is where I had some real fun, because Josh played a SW Sorcerer. In SW terms that means that he had powers from Channeling and from Essence realms, but focused on destruction. By co-incidence, this would indicate that such a character had to be a user of the "Unlife" or anti-essence (sorta a gap in the essence) in SW. This source of power is described much like the Dark Side of the Force, if you will. The point being that it is addictive. So I ruled simply that the Sorcerers basically in a self-deceiving way, worshiped the Unlife. To that extent, they got an Affinity of Destruction from that worship. All other powers had to be gotten from books, however. So with one narrow Affinity, and Grimoires to fill out the rest, it made for a balanced Keyword, I felt.

For Astrologers, hybrid Channeling/Mentalism realm users, I ruled that this was worship of the goddess of the stars, Valris, who, also in a convenient coincidence, is the goddess of knowledge. As such, I ruled that she wants her worshippers to discover their own inner selves, and thus they could take abilities straight per Mentalism above. In addition, however, they could take one of her Affinities, representing one of her spell lists. I thought that this was neat, because it means that fewer Astrologers would end up as "telecommunications" stations, which comes from the use of certain spell lists.

Mystics, the Essence/Mentalism users simply got few Grimoires, and some other straight abilities. Actually the one character defined as a Mystic ended up just with straight abilities that represent the Mystic lists, which are blocky like the mentalist ones, and the Astrologer ones. So that worked fine.

Other Considerations
In RM, spell points, the pool of power from which a character has to cast his spells is, IMO, not a limiter. Only in the case of dungeon crawl type adventures do you ever use enough SP to worry about even getting fatigued from it, much less running out. And that's before multipliers and adders which are items that can dramatically boost your casting ability. That said, I do like the idea of magic power being limited. As it happened, my players restrained their use to the dramatic and sensible, as though they were limited, so I didn't need a rule, and didn't employ one. It sufficed to have the threat of fumbled spells causing all sorts of havoc (Josh at one point mentally bound himself to not move from a particular spot). But bad backlash on some failures is definitely a feature of SW magic use.

I do like the idea of magic being an extra "step" that has to happen to protrude into reality, however, and I've toyed with ideas for this. One was to simply have a roll against a 14 as a contest to "project" the spell into normal reality (the Resistance to vary depending on circumstances). For chanellers, it would represent opening the channel. For Animists it would be waking the spirits. For direct essence users, stirring up the local essence. I'd like to hear some debate on the suitability of such a roll - am I modeling anything? Is it unnecessary? If this was seen as limiting in terms of power, it could result in an augment or something on a good roll. In any case, failure on such a roll, or a fumble on a normal roll should cause some sort of rather dramatic failure that could result in loss of ability, etc.

The aforementioned Multipliers and Adders would then help with the initial rolls, and not with the subsequent rolls. Other items, per the setting, would add to the actual effectiveness of the Ability. Lots of items would exist that would add to resistance rolls, which I think is very cool.

Conclusion
Well, that about covers it. Not a lot of modifications, but you can see it does take some wrangling about to get things to fit nice and snugly. Some topics for discussion:

For those familiar with SW did I convert correctly in your opinion? Any errors? Any improvements (I do intend to play the game more)?
Does the conversion seem reasonable in general terms? Should I have gone farther? Should I have ignored things in SW and just used the HW system in a more straightforward fashion?
Is there a good way to make wounding and healing more detailed? Do you agree that healing seems too easy (making wounds less dramatic)?
Anything in general on the subject of magic system conversion?

Mike

I'm afraid I don't know Shadow World, and am only vaguely familiar with Rolemaster, so I can only comment in some general ways.

Healing can probably be resolved by having very specific healing abilities and applying stiff improvisation modifiers.

More generaly, the HQ magic systems are very tightly tied to the nature of the otherworlds of Glorantha and how mortals interact with them. You may be better off writing up new versions of the magic systems tailored to Shadow World, though of course many of the concepts in the HQ magic systems could be borrowed. Theism is probably the simplest of the HQ magic systems and therefore the easiest to adapt.

In Rolemaster I believe you get access to new spells as your level goes up, as in D&D. Theers nothing to stop you doing this in a HQ converson. Perhaps have entry tests for different ranks of initiation or spychic advancement, with new featsbecoming available at the new rank. This might create some novel possibilities, such as a high ranked magician who actualy has low abilities, but was helped up the scale by powerful friends, bribery or nepotism.


Simon Hibbs

QuoteHealing can probably be resolved by having very specific healing abilities and applying stiff improvisation modifiers.

Precisely what I was thinking. I'd probably stick with the actual RM spells as the titles of abilities so that they'll tend to all have about the same scope of usefulness (some are more common injuries, some are more serious types). The other cool thing about RM healing is the intensive herbalism rules. Healing herbs are a big part of loot, etc. By keeping magical healing to a minimum, you make these things more important. I mean, how important is a painkiller herb, when one can just repair the damage whole in just a few minutes?

BTW, I forgot that the Lay Healer can't do any instantaneous healing, they can only accellerate healing. Only Healers per se are instantaneous. So that's another thing keeping healing modest.


Yes, RM spells are level based, and in theory there are a lot of them. But in actuality most are simply variations off of a theme. That's what I meant above by "more of same". That is, for a spell list like light ways there are a series of attack spells at various levels. you start off with a spell like Shock Bolt at low level, which is like a tiny lightning bolt. Then you get the worst version of Lightning Bolt. Then you get Lightning Bolt with a longer range. And longer. And then you get one that forks. Etc. In HW terms these are all just higher mastery with the same power.

Further, RM spells aren't linked to the character's level directly; it's actually fairly skill based. That is, anyone can learn up a spell list. Knowing spells at above your level only makes them more dangerous to cast. And there are magic skills that allow you to modify spells on the fly and the like (Spell Mastery), etc.

So it's, again, just rolling against a higher resistance for range, etc. Basically, there's nothing about the level aspect of RM spells that's worth keeping to me. The most colorful of RM spells is actually extremely bland. So I want to go with a more Gloranthan description of the magic to the extent possible to fix that.

OTOH, access to lore and grimoires is another thing, and I like your idea of making rolls to get more training and such. I do see the gross blocks of power as sorta rank-associated within organizations. That's sure to get use.


Mechanically, I'm not seeing any link to the Gloranthan Otherworld concept that makes porting over the magic very difficult. I think the notes that I have cover that well enough. Or is there some specific gap that I missed? Or does the conversion seem forced in some way? I'm sensing that something doesn't seem kosher. Basically, the Magic system included is lacking, IMO, so I'm taking a lot of stuff over from HW. But hopefully not so much that I might as well be playing in Glorantha.

One of the things that's somewhat similar in SW and Glorantha is the sorta "anime" feel I get from the ubiquitous magic. SW magic is also always visible and colorful. The big difference is that really knowledgable users of magic know that it's a natural force of a sort. That is, it's not any more "supernatural" than electricity is. Which I actually kinda like. I'm not sure how it colors the conversion, however.

Thanks for the feedback,
Mike

Hey!

What is missing for me is the fact, that mentalists magic is very much limited to themselves or their near environment.
So i would say, range is self, touch or maximum of 3meters.

For my personal game i used rolemastermagic as an inspiratin too, and what i really liked about HQ magic was the affinity thing. So RM spell lists translate into books/grimoires, like:
Ways of Intuition
Moving Ways
Power of Pain
etc.
I distinguished between two kinds of magic: petty magic and high magic. So with any magical discipline/grimoire you can cast magic that is an augment only and it must be in the thematical theme of the grimore.
High magic is spells, very much as in HW.
all the best
Christian

Welcome to the Forge, Christian.

Quote from: Der_RenegatWhat is missing for me is the fact, that mentalists magic is very much limited to themselves or their near environment.
So i would say, range is self, touch or maximum of 3meters.

That's a good point, though Mysticism in HW seems only to be fairly localized. Would it suffice simply to comment that this is a limitation of the form?

QuoteI distinguished between two kinds of magic: petty magic and high magic. So with any magical discipline/grimoire you can cast magic that is an augment only and it must be in the thematical theme of the grimore.
High magic is spells, very much as in HW.

Ah, that's a pretty good solution in general terms. That is, Common Magic doesn't require books and the like to cast. Mentalism seems a lot like Concentrated Common Magic (i.e. Self-rock Teaching). The point is that you're basically getting a wide range of Magic Abilities that can be used "actively" (as opposed to Augment only) for the same cost as mundane Abilities, and don't need objects, etc.

OTOH, Theism isn't supposed to require books or the like, either. But I think it's balanced by it's limited Afinities.


I have several observations on how I'd change my above methodology after having looked over Hero Quest thoroughly now:

First, it seems clear that many of the local gods and other spirits and the like would work well as Guardians. The Great Tree of the Emerald Forest is a perfect example. I think the level of power portrayed for the tree (and it's attendant dryad spirit), is comensurate with the amount of power it would have with the Guardian rules, given the population.

There are still some exceptions, however. Orlhach, is a demon in a volcano who's worshipped by some Half-Elves. He's an interesting case. He definitely doesn't have the best interests of his worshippers in mind, though they're not really aware of that fact. So I'm trying to think what that would constitute in game terms? The simplest thing would be to say there are no game effects, and that the only benefits that the islanders get from his worship is direct use of his magical abilites (or, more likely, simply an avoidance of his wrath). Is there a better model? Put it this way, if I went with that model, then it would take an intrepid PC to join that religion, knowing that there were no mechanical benefits to be had.

Other potential problems have to do with how HQ establishes a lot more in the way of sub-categories of the different models of magic. Theism is largely unchanged, but Wizardry now differentiates between Liturgists, Orderlies, and Adepts. In using this to model SW's Essence users, I obviously was thinking in terms of what are now Adepts (with the sorcerer distinction in HQ being irellevant). And that remains a solid conversion, I think. The question is, what to do with the other two types?

At first glance, Orderlies shout out, "here be Paladins, etc." Same with "clerics" and Liturgists. But the problem, of course is that this is already taken account of in terms of Theisim. The simple problem is that there is no monotheistic religion like exists in Glorantha in Shadow World. I could rule that any religion that specializes in one god (and there are a lot of them) or that has as strong a heirarchy as a monotheistic church, could work in the manner that wizardry works in HQ. But I remain unconvinced that this is a good idea, and might well just not use the rules for these types. Any arguments on either side? I don't have to retain all the HQ types - it's just that it seems like a waste not to use all those juicy rules. Especially blessings and the like.

Animism, though more complex, seems like it should convert fine as is. It's far more detail with the new categories than SW ever intended for such stuff, but that's not a big deal, IMO. In many ways these just seem to be more levels of investment in the particular religions, much like the levels of Theism. Anybody spot any concerns there? The only problem that I'm seeing at all is that it's canon in SW that spirits are actually agents of the gods. Does that pose any problems? Maybe more importantly, does it mean that all Theists and Animists are on the same "side" so to speak? I'd like to keep some of the friction alive if possible.

I'm going to be posting the Races/Homeland Keywords that I've come up with soon, and after that, I'll post the religions that I'm coming up with. So stay tuned if you're interested.

Mike

One very interesting aspect about the whole magicsystem question is what is magic?
I found a very interesting interview with Gregg Stafford:

QuoteQ: HeroQuest has a three-pronged approach to magic, and each is defined by worship or deification, even the type of magic labeled wizardry. While this may be more fitting considering the historical nature of magic and myth in actual cultures, it is contrary to the "secular" magic found so commonly in RPGs. Can you explain this a bit, and comment on why you've included no "secular magic?" Do you see it in any way as a "correction" for a hobby trend that demystified the nature of magic, ritual and worship in human history?

A: Of course, it isn't the hobby that has secularized the idea of magic. Everything in our Western way of life has done that and the majority of game designers don't have real experience with magic, so they just mimic the "common knowledge" and treat magic as if it was another technology. But it isn't. Magic comes from the place where poetry and psychology meet, which is in our souls. I don't try to proselityze with my games, but I do try to provide soul food, in the form of fun, creativity and group communication. So I guess you could say this is a sort of "correction" for the erroneous methodologies that are promoted in other games and in our culture at large.

So if you think about it, you have magic as a techology and magic as changing states of being via a higher reality, but not in a mechanistic way.
On some Rolemaster fan website i found two articles were people tried to explain magic as an energy, something like quantum-mechanics. So a pseudo scientific explanation.
This surely can be fun, if you want your world to be like that.
And as i see it, the world of Kulthea is a mixture of science fiction and fantasy, so that might fit.
But if you want magic to be something more....magical, something that can not be explained, because its not mechanistic but supernatural. I researched a bit, and magic is described as a mystic way to exert your wishes on the universe.
For example:

mechanistic magic:
everything is causal and pseudo-scientific
Telekinesis-manipulation of gravity
Telepathy-reading of thoughts, maybe via waves
Shapechanging-rearranging of cells
Summoning-opening of transdimensional gates
tossing fireballs-controlled atoms

magical magic:
states of being are controlled via a higher reality you can tap to achieve goals of your ego-its a secret, that cannot be explained
you want it to fly
know whats hidden
become another form
call alien creature
create fire
etc.


Especaillay the RM rules/spells for magic like astrology and seeing into the future are very unmagical. Here HQ could really add flavour to this kind of magic.

all the best

Christian

This is a long-running debate, actually. Most people side with the "make magic magical" side of things. But I have to say that I have yet to find a game system that makes magic different than anything else, in-game. Hero Quest is no different. I mean, as soon as you make magic resolvable via some system, players can rely on that system to produce certain effects. As soon as that happens, they can, if they want, treat magic as a technology.

The point is that I think it's a sorta useless distinction in some ways. There exsists something in the game world that the characters believe in that produces the effects it does. I'll leave the metaphysics to them.

As for how to color it all, I think that Shadow World already has done that. By linking it all to the Essence, it says that magic is some force. But it doesn't say whether that force is, ultimately, bound by the rules of our universe. Certainly it seems to do some things that are beyond our universe, and decribed are planes beyond our universe. In any case, as my carpenter says, "It is what it is." I'll describe it as the texts suggest (since it seems pretty cool and compelling to me in a sort of Final Fantasy X way), and let the players ponder it's origins if they like.


On the race/homeland keyord notes, I've got much of it complete, and am just now thinking about presentation. It turns out that the real "problem" is making the religion keywords. I'd like to talk about that a bit (as it's germane to the topic anyhow).

Many places are listed as worshipping the Lords of Orhan. Sometimes they'll have one specified. Other times, they'll indicate a particular god as prime, leaving you with the feeling that the others are also worshipped a little. Sometimes this god has a different name than what he's called elsewhere. I feel that all this begs some work to make it more HQ-ish, but I'm not sure how, precisely.

That is, should there be a general religion followed by all "good" folks (I love how elves are the exception and have no organized religion)? The books give example religions, but these often seem more like sub-cults and the like. When should it be it's own religion, and when should it be a sub-cult of a worldwide religion? If they are all local religions, then I'm going to have my hands full inventing details, as usually the only thing mentioned is the god's name.

On a related note, in reading HQ it's finally sunk in that all people have a religion. Since Mentalism and Essence don't really constitute religions themselves, there doesn't seem to be any real reason why a person can't be in a religion at the same time. Oh, sure, a religion might not like it (for example, the Lankan religion specifically forbids any other kind of magic), but Essence and mentalism don't have beings forbidding their practitioners from making religious observance. So, even if restricted, one could imagine a character hiding his magic and still attending services.

Yes, a character in SW does have to choose whether he is in the realm of Channeling, Essence, or Mentalism, but that has nebulous borders. I plan to make that all about Concentration in HQ terms. That does mean that a character cam still be a worshipper of any religion they like, in theory, and subject to the God's restrictions. It certainly means that they can have the Knowledge, Personality, and Relationship Abilities that these things confer. None of this is problematic, fortunately, due to it being vaguely possible in HQ as well. Dedication percentages apply.

Mike

OK, some new issues to discuss that came up in PM between myself and Scott.

This is going to really alienate some folks, but I think others will really like it. One of the things that I've been trying to do with this conversion is to take the fiddly elements that were present in Rolemaster Magic, and give them a better expression in the HQ conversion. In RM Magic, to get an effect, you do several things.
[list=1]
[*]Roll to see if you get the spell off. Often automatic, and, if not, nearly automatic, the result of failure here is that you get some sort of catastrophic failure.
[*]Assuming that the spell went off right (and sometimes even if it didn't) you pay for the spell in Spell Points. Often this cost is mitigated by magic items in a number of ways.
[*]Then you roll the attack. This gives the opponent a bonus or penalty to defend.
[*]The opponent then rolls to see if they can "resist" the effect. [/list:o]

The last two, obviously translate into the effect of the spell hitting the target - determines who wins the contest between the character, and the target. Now, one could assume that number one, the possibility for a catastrophic failure, could be subsumed into this roll. That is, it sounds like a good result for a bad failure to have the spell go haywire. And this works, it's how I've been playing. OTOH, what it ignores is that it's not really the target that the character competes against to control the magic, but the magic itself.

And in any case, there's no drain of power that eventuall results in the character being "out". Again, one could say that this is yet another part of failure, represented by the "wound" effect. And, again, this is how I've been playing, and it works. But that ignores that in RM, you have to work on getting enough points to power things, and also that many magic thingies are all about not making the caster better at casting, but just giving more energy. You can't separate these things if you have just the one roll.

Basically, what I'm thinking is that the Player always has to roll an ability appropriate to the type of magic for control of Essence in order to get the spell to go off. For example, Channelers would have the Channeling Ability, representing the ease with which they can channel essence from their god. This is an interesting keeper from the RM system in that in that game there's no relationship to god Ability per se. Yes, there's some talk about how channelers have to keep on their god's good side, but nothing mechanical about how to limit PCs who don't. In this case, we'd also have the piety Ability to augment with (and Angry God flaws to make things harder). Thus the PC is probably always able to cast, but may have significan't penalties - matches, and improves on RM. Realm of Essence guys would have Control Essence, and Mentalism guys would have Tap Personal Essence. Something like that.

This has a cool side effect, which is that Hybrid users would probably have both of these Abilities. Might not have mastered each as well as someone who specialized, but they'd have a secondary back up source of power. For example, "Astrologers" would have both Channeling, and Tap Personal Essence. This is cool, because there's a problem in the original RM system as regards this (the Shadow World texts recently admitted this, and discussed alternatives). The problem is that hybrids are rare. Magic items that boost your Spell Points are really common for the three basic realms, but unknown practically for hybrids. As such, hybrids tend to lack in power curve. In this case, however, they'd actually be more versatile, as they'd be able to use either, and wouldn't have to worry about fining some rare Hybrid Adder or the like. But I digress.

To get the "drain" effect, at first I considered using a system similar to a method that Scott had in his Midnight conversion where failure on a roll caused a stat to reduce. But this adds a few rules not present in HQ, and I think there's another way that works similarly, and better for this conversion.

The player simply rolls the "Spell Point" Ability against the Ability level of the spell being cast. This matches RM, as there mods that discuss "overcasting" and in general, the higher the level of the spell, the more likely it is to be problematic (all quite intuitive). On a success, there's no effect, no loss of pool. On a failure, the Ability in question is "wounded" appropriately. When the ability loses a Total Failure in such a contest, it's out and no casting is possible. Now, this means that a HQ character can cast "small" spells indefinitely, which isn't supported. But given the chance for a Fumble, I think that the abstraction works well. Mechanically I think it's far superior and just feels better. And it allows us to attach the bad failure effects to this roll. Basically, the GM can choose to do the "Spell Point" ability loss, or some other effect. Bad failures, instead of causing complete loss of spell power (until "healed"), could incapacitate the caster - matching lots of the catastrophic failure table results (other results are a loss of casting Ability, which suddenly is just the same result as "normal" loss in this system).

The neat thing is that in RM, as you cast, you're supposed to get fatigued in parallel with Spell Point loss. So the "wounds" that are done due to this also count against any activity that normal fatigue might affect. There's a slight disconnect here in that at the tapped out point in RM you'd just be badly fatigued and still be able to operate with a big penalty (-30, IIRC). The alternative would be another roll, however, so I'm willing to ignore the problem. What I'd do, instead, is just point out how easy it is to recover fatige losses - I'd allow a roll every few minutes or so naturally. Success converts the penalty from fatiguing the caster to only "spell point drain". Wheras recovering "spell points" would be a matter of many hours to daylong processes (speeded up by the sorts of Abilities that RM proposed using to speed it up, like Meditation).

Anyhow, this all gives another dimension to magic as it would exist in the conversion. Yes, it's another roll, but I like the implications a lot. In many ways, it's simply similar to treating magic as a Follower, one who always has a resistance to doing what you want at it's own level of Ability. Thought of that way, it's really just a simple extension of the rules that covers the manner in which magic occurs in SW.

Any thoughts as to problems with the implementation? Am I simming it too much, or are there real themes to be explored in this extra die rolling?

As far as emulating the Spell Multipliers, and Adders from RM, I think there's lots of opportunity to do neat things. Multipliers, I always thought were problematic in their presentation. They say, essentially, that if you have 10 SP normally, that a x3 Multiplier gives you 30. But then, does it multiply your recovery rate? If not, then that would indicate that the points gained would be independent of the item. If that's true, can I take it off, give it to another character, and they get the boost, too? Nope, only one person can "use" one at a time.

The best way to think of "Multipliers" is that they don't actually multiply SP, but they reduce the cost of spells cast. A x3 Spell Point Multiplier is better stated as a x1/3 Spell Cost Reducer. In any case, the way to convert them is simple for our purposes, we just make them bonus items that add to the "Spell Point" Ability in question. This makes them more the "focuses" ( to use the term from all the way back in C&S) that I've always wanted them to be.

The other neat thing about this is that it allows us significant advantages in making fine grained differences in items without the problems that would occur in RM. In RM, a x2 multiplier was the lowliest that you could get. Given that this represents a significant increas in power, they are practically ubiquitous - a non-novice caster without one is a rarity. But that means that you have to allow for lots of x3 and up multipliers. Given that you want to have the most powerful casters with better multipliers, the effect multiplies the total SP available. A first level character without a multiplier might have 3SP total. While a 30 the level character will likely have several thousand with their x5 Multiplier. The theoretical problems are huge given that the most powerful spells in the supplemental material (never mind the much less powerful normal stuff) costs at most 150 SP to cast. Basically, somewhere around 10th level SP stop being an issue, usually. With HQ, that won't happen.

Adders, then, are simply additional Abilities that can be used as an alternative to the usual "spell point" Ability. Essentially a second battery. To prevent these from being unbalanced, they should probably mostly be smallish - so that they tend to drain out with few uses. They recharge with daily healing rolls.

Because of an indeosyncracy of how the RM system works, it was never feasible, really, to have items that added to the character's ability to cast directly (you'd see them very rarely). This is, of course, solved with HQ, and I think that it's OK to introduce such items - that is I think they would have existed more in the original material if the system had made it possible. So I'd say that they're in genre, and suggest that people have them.

So, right there we have three different interesting ways to implement magic items that affect magic Ablities. I'm very excited to try this out (and will be doing so with my current online game). Any problems with any of this stuff? Anything that I can do to explore it more in-depth?

Mike

I'm following the above topic with another, separating them like so because they're about very different things (and the above one is long enough as it is). I've discovered that Brand has some experience with Shadow World. So I'm using that as an excuse to broach a subject that I probably wouldn't otherwise broach, hoping that he, or somebody else with both RM and SW experience will comment.

In a recent thread we were discussing how often common magic should be given to starting characters with other keywords. The fact is that it's, essentially, an option of the GM. The question is whether or not this makes sense for Shadow World. How many people should get common magic.

What makes me think that it is, is that in RM, characters get "adolescent" skill packages, representing development that occured before they reached first level. This is very much like Homelands in some ways. The point is that many of these packages indicated that the characters got spells. In fact anyone from a city got at least one spell, and Elves all get three.

This sounds like common magic to me, sorta. OTOH, oddly people outside of cities, it's rare. I think this is odd, but an effect of the idea that magic in SW is mostly pseudo-scientific. That is, while magic is everywhere in SW, many people don't seem to wield it at all. OTOH, it's somewhat hard to tell.

So, I guess I'm asking for people's impressions. Should common magic be a part of my conversion?

A worse problem is that you can't create a character who has no real magic anymore. That is, in HW, the problem was solved by the fact that you could just make the character a "common worshipper" as their keyword. With no common magic, that keyword meant that their only "Magic" was pleading to the gods...which everyone should have. In the current system, it says that all characters will have some magic, even if it's only common magic. So, do I keep with that, or say that some characters don't even have that?

It would be easy to make this decision if these sorts of things were discussed in the SW texts. But they focus on other things, and the best guess I have is based on those Adolescence packages that I mentioned. Which leaves me feeling very ambivalent, unfortunately. On the one hand, I think it's cool for everyone to know a little magic, and the packages seem to indicate that this is kosher. OTOH, there seem to be lots of people who don't have any magic in SW. If I went with a "mixed" approach, who should get it, and who not?

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesAny thoughts as to problems with the implementation? Am I simming it too much, or are there real themes to be explored in this extra die rolling?

There could be, depending on the character. For example: Thomas Stern, theist channeler, has the Channeling (Power of Mynistra) ability. He also has the personality traits: Honorable, Visionary, and Berserker Anger. In trying to cast a spell to protect the group of outcastes from tax-collector thugs he has to first align himself with Mynistra before he can even attempt to actually make the spell work. His Honorable helps him, but his Beserker Anger (his eternal curse) makes it harder, as it always pulls him away from the path of the goddess and towards rashness and destruction.

So therefore his inability/ability to simply access the magic becomes a question of his inner conflicts working for or against his religion.

Quote from: Mike HolmesShould common magic be a part of my conversion?

I don't know that it has to be, but religion should be. The way to separate them from each other is simple – don't include the Channeler/whatever skill in the religion keyword. Having a religion still gives you access to extra skills, personality traits, community support, and possibly even personal relationships with gods and spirits that could be used to call for divine aid/make spirit allies/whatever. But if the person wants to access the magic of their religion, they have to take a Channeler skill that moves them out of the "common religion" area and into the "cleric" area.

Quote from: Brand_RobinsSo therefore his inability/ability to simply access the magic becomes a question of his inner conflicts working for or against his religion.

I was hoping somebody would see it my way. :-)

Any dissenters out there? As Devil's Advocate, I think that the potential problem isn't that theme can't be worked out through this, but that sometimes it's just perfunctory and that theme won't be created. That is, there are some (Ron :-) ) who would say that if there's no thematic potential that it shouldn't be a contest (an extension of the "no real hero" rule). Now, there's always going to be some wiggle room here when you hit a "maybe" it's worthwhile sorts of moments. The question is does making this mandatory go over the line? Or, should it only be rolled when those moments are clear?

What I'm hoping is that requiring the roll will automatically make for some theme. That is, if it's that dangerous and costly to do magic (and it's not really that bad), then does each use make a statment? Like using Sorcery in Sorcerer? I know it doesn't do that good a job. But does it avoid being annoying?

May end up being a playtest issue. ;-)

QuoteI don't know that it has to be, but religion should be. The way to separate them from each other is simple – don't include the Channeler/whatever skill in the religion keyword. Having a religion still gives you access to extra skills, personality traits, community support, and possibly even personal relationships with gods and spirits that could be used to call for divine aid/make spirit allies/whatever. But if the person wants to access the magic of their religion, they have to take a Channeler skill that moves them out of the "common religion" area and into the "cleric" area.

Definitely, that's how I planned to divide (in fact, I'm tempted to make magic part of occupations). It's akin to Wizards tapping - common worshippers don't do it, it's a specialized thing.

So is this against common magic, or do you see it as potentially OK for some circumstances? Mayhap I should just leave it to case by case examination? I'm kinda leaning that way now.

Thanks for the comments.
Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesSo is this against common magic, or do you see it as potentially OK for some circumstances? Mayhap I should just leave it to case by case examination? I'm kinda leaning that way now.

Hrm.

I'd say I'm against common magic for the common man. Common magic for PCs and Heroic/Antagoist NPCs, however, may be doable.

In otherwords, there is some magic you can have without being a cultist/devotee/shamman -- it is "common magic" because it isn't tied to any single practice. It is not, however, common in the sense that everyone in the world has it.

Does that make any sense?

Yep, it does. For players, that sounds like a case-by-case argument. I'd also give it to elves to represent their innately magical natures, etc. Basically use it for "filler" where neccessary, but not make it "common" in the sense that you point out. Cool, thanks.

Hey, any ideas about my implementations as I've got them written up above? Good, bad, otherwise?

The worst problem in the conversion so far, by far (it's hung up the whole thing now for a while) is whether or not the Lords of Orhan represent a worldwide religion, or whether they're worshipped differently in each place. There are some stated exceptions, but do those represent all the exceptions? Wouldn't it be more plausible that each culture would have differences? How does the relative objectivity of the gods affect things? Or, OTOH, how about their not entirlely logical natures?

Do you see the problem that I'm having? Or should I elucidate further?

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesHey, any ideas about my implementations as I've got them written up above? Good, bad, otherwise?

Most of them I like. However, there are places (especially around Spell Multipliers) where I get a bit hazy because the focus is to heavily on RM (which I've only a passing familiarity with) that I don't always get what you're suggesting with HQ.

Quote from: Mike HolmesWouldn't it be more plausible that each culture would have differences? How does the relative objectivity of the gods affect things?

I don't remember, honestly, this being a big issue in Shadow World. The gods are probably the same being, but worshiped differently. So far as I recall, the world isn't nearly so subjectivist/post-modernist as Heroquest is, so I don' t know if this issue is important enough to put the effort you're obviously putting into it.

So far as I can tell the gods are the gods, they exist as what they are. People worship them differently, and may even fight about the differences, or try to come together to understand them better (very post-postivist of them), but while their different worship does affect their culture, it doesn't affect the gods themselves. Really, SW gods always seemed to be somewhat "real an sich" to me. The way they are worshipped may change the worshiper, but not the object of worship.

That said, I think the gods' cults would be different from time to time and place to place -- as just because there is an elephant in the tent doesn't mean we can all see all parts of it. Those guys there worship the trunk, we worship the ears, and they worship the feet. We all also do "elephant magic" -- we just have different slants and flavors on it.

Does that make sense, or am I missing something due to my (admittedly) limited knowledge of Shadow World?

Quote from: Brand_RobinsI don't remember, honestly, this being a big issue in Shadow World. The gods are probably the same being, but worshiped differently. So far as I recall, the world isn't nearly so subjectivist/post-modernist as Heroquest is, so I don' t know if this issue is important enough to put the effort you're obviously putting into it.

I think you're right. My take is that Terry Amthor was trying to make sense of the idea of multiple pantheons, just like Stafford was. Terry's solution seems to me to simply be to objectify the gods into a single pantheon more or less - treat them as just very powerful beings. As opposed to Stafford's take, which was to come up with the relativist rationale that he has that explains how different cultures could have different pantheons, and the could all be correct.

Thing is, I like Stafford's solution better. So I probably should just play in Glorantha. But Amthor does leave a little wiggle room. That is, there are the few exceptions to the rule, and a general statement that the gods aren't human, and don't act by the rules of our logic. Hence, it doesn't make sense for the gods to present themselves differently in different places, but they still do anyhow. And, in fact, they may be affected in their presentation by the worship. That is, if one race worships a god, then that god may, in fact, present themselves as a member of that race when dealing with that race. This may an effect of the worshipper. Yes, the god is the same, in effect, but small things may change from place to place. Who's to say (the text doesn't).

So, I think that the consensus is that it's best to have the Orhanian religion be fairly universal, but have particular interpretations in different places. That includes different Affinities in some cases. Maybe the god has all the Affinities, but the mortals are only aware of a few (the elephant penomenon you mention). These "partial" and varying interpretations will be the source of some of the conflicts between cultures.

Thanks for the feedback. At the very least, doing it this way will be a lot easier.

Mike