The Forge Archives

Hello,

After today's strip I feel like doing some trollbabe musing...

I don't think I will ever adjust to the tone of the comics.  It's like the strips keep landing in the emotional equivalent of my peripheral vision.  I get them but only because I'm capable of thinking about it, not because they actually punch me in an emotional way.  It's almost like I want say, "Ron, please, please stop being so CORNY!"

But there are exceptions:

1) The ending of Avatar Is Plenty is the first time I actually laughed out loud while reading a Trollbabe strip.  It was extremely funny.

2) Birthroot Bargain is THE BEST Trollbabe strip so far, hands down.  That story packed punch.

Which of course brings me to todays strip....

Tha is reading books on birthroot... which means I'm smiling gleefully...  Does this harald the return of Creepy-Baby-Root-Thing?!!!?

I hope so.

Today's strip also perfectly captures my feelings about the strips in general.

Frame 1: The tone is set.  A pile of musty arcane books being studied by candle light.  The title of one of the books: Birthroot 101.  My eyes widen with excitement!  All this drawn in one of my favorite art styles: high contrast black and white.

Frame 2: Now we see the title of the book and... it's a kind of half-parody of an existing book and on the back I see more half-parodies.  This would be okay and appreciated, if the parody titles actually made sense as puns or something but instead they seem kind of random.  So already I'm kind of squinting with one eye.

Frame 3: Bam!  We're treated to a corny bespeckled ghost complete with bubble letter BOO!  And now, I'm in full on face-plant mode. *thump*

Jesse

Side Question: Is the implication in Holy Trollers that the murdering troll might be Aiga from A Day At The Circus deliberate or am I reading too much into it?

Hi Jesse,

It might interest you to know that the book titles and stuff in the story were inserted by the artist and weren't part of the instructions from the script. Just one of those unexpected outcomes that collaboration yields, with whatever effect it happens to have. This might interfere with your desired vision of the Master Creator Who Knows All, but comics aren't a great medium for such people.

And what's with the humor phobia? You don't like funny? Shall I tell you about the Troll Stomp dance that Jake invented during the session he played?

One thing I've learned about the Trollbabe comics is that the story is very organic and very slow, arguably to the point that it's artistically sometimes fully stalled. During the trip, little bits here and there are funny or goofy. The characters occasionally use modern slang, or details might satirize modern life.

(My limits, on that, by the way, are well set - the strip will never become self-referential, for instance; the characters will not address their creators nor "know" they're in a comic. But I should also point out that the artists' limits, or lack thereof, are involved too.)

And who should know this whole point better than you, already? I mean, all that "Nuh-uh, I don't like it, not enough story," and then this!

QuoteSide Question: Is the implication in Holy Trollers that the murdering troll might be Aiga from A Day At The Circus deliberate or am I reading too much into it?

Sputter ... why, whatever do you mean!?

This, from the guy who's always complaining that there's not enough 'story' in the strips, and here he goes and pegs ... um, would peg, if he were right, one of the big plot points ... I mean, if it were a plot point.

Best,
Ron

Hello Again,

I had my suspicions about the book titles possibliy being an artist's addition.  Thanks for confirming them.

Oh, yeah, I don't like the modern slang either.

I'm not humor phobic but I am generally very very very very very particular about what I find funny and when I find humor appropriate.  This is a source of conflict between me and my players ALL THE TIME.  Often my players will do something that sounds akin to the "Troll Stomp Dance" you mentioned and I will sit at the end of the table drumming my fingers and giving them my best, "We Are Not Amused" look.  I'm trying to do better.

What it comes down to is that I do not like blunt slapsticky, over the top humor.  A lot of the sketches on Saturday Night Live now a days annoy me.  Adam Sandler is my mortal enemy.   Things like a cross dressing man doing an over the top loud obnoxious impersonation of a talk show host just doesn't make me laugh.  I am probably the sole gamer in the world who thinks Monty Python and The Holy Grail is NOT FUNNY (well, it has moments, but the ending is particularly NOT FUNNY).

But I am not without humor.  I like scathing wit as demonstrated by Blackadder and other British Sitcoms as well as Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel.  I like intelligent social satire such as The Onion.  And I like twisted dark humor.  I love the comic Lenore, Chapter 1 of Kill Bill is extremely funny,  and most people these days who comment on my sense of humor get handed my printed copy of "My Life With Master" on which I've penciled in the words, "A Romantic Comedy" under the title.

Quote
Sputter ... why, whatever do you mean!?

Well....  I couldn't help but notice that Aiga refers to himself as a "Rogue Troll."  That line stuck out at me the first time I saw it.  Then in Holy Trollers ( This title IS funny by the way. And represents what the Birthroot book titles COULD have been. ), one of the other trolls comments "Must be a rogue!" and Tha says, "I'll look for the rogue," and "Hope I can find the rogue..."  These all stuck out to me because I kept wondering what defines a *ROGUE* troll.

Next we are given a very deliberate picture of the troll holding its victim's severed head.  This is very remenicient of the "Souvenir" sequence in A Day At The Circus which brought in the question Man Eater does not equal Man Killer.  Finally, after the troll is dead, Tha remarks, "Poor, desperate monster.  I wonder what his story was."  The line DELIBERATELY brings the Troll's identity into question.

So, here's the thing.  When I made the connection I was sort of rubbing my hands with anticipation.  I thought, "Ah, NOW, things will really start rolling," fully expecting the NEXT strip to be a Rhetta story dealing with the outcome of Holly Trollers with full discloser that the troll was indeed Aiga....

But... Hmm... Oh well, guess not.

Which is odd because I was wondering why Avatar is Plenty features Tha.  It feels like a Rhetta story.

Jesse

P.S. Oh and while I'm being all critical and all I just have to share that when I saw the end of the second strip of Avatar is Plenty I couldn't help but think, "All that work and they summon Daredevil?"

Ah, I get it.

#1, you're the perfect Trollbabe reader. I wondered whether the severed head would be clue enough, and it was. Excellent. Just you wait for the next big whacko thing.

#2, nothing's wrong with your sense of humor that a gopher in your pants won't cure. Now that I know this, I'm all set for the next time we hang out together in person.

#3, what's with this "Next up" business? Are you somehow looking for the Trollbabe story to take off in some directed fashion, just because you luckily grabbed a clue? Not happening - I like the current pace, and as soon as you get a Big Story Bit sussed out, you can bet on at least a whole story to follow that doesn't have anything to do with anything except demonstrating and enjoying some aspect of the gals' personalities.

Yeah, you're cute when you're all frustrated and panting for more. In the comics biz, that's part of the goal.

Best,
Ron

Jesse--

I say this with nothing but love, but...

...yeah, you definitely need a gopher in the pants.

Dude, it's a comic strip. Which is not to say, "Stop analyzing it! It's just a comic, not serious literature." I guess I tend to approach "serious literature" as if it were a comic book. To me, Borges is a writer of pulp mysteries. James Joyce is a comical writer with a weird (that is, very Irish) sense of humor, & Ulysses is just a good story.

In other words: Relax. (And Blackadder isn't over the top? I showed it to a girlfriend once & she disgustedly said, "How is this any different from Married With Children?" I mean..."Head" is pretty base, what with Edmund running around with a head hidden behind his back. Boy, do I love that show.)

I'll admit, though, the modern speaking kind of threw me at first, too. Then I remembered that Ron's a big underground fantasy/Heavy Metal guy & I'm not so much. I'm used to the modern speak now.

And I agree: "Birthroot Bargain" is skinchillingly good. I love that strip.

Hello Again,

Well, the whole, "We're going to hint at something and then not speak of it again for six months" method of storytelling is why I finally stopped reading Gaming Guardians and that was a DAILY strip.  Also that it would waffle between on going superhero storyline and one off gaming satire strips bothered me.  You're either the X-Men or you're Dilbert... make up your mind.

I don't think it has anything to do with "serious litterature" but just what I consider fundamental good storytelling qualities.  A story can be silly or serious, light or heavy but either way it should be... tight, is perhaps the word I'm looking for.

It's like an amusement park ride.  As I read Trollbabe I keep waiting for the "hair pin turns" and "sudden drops" and all that's happening is that the ride is just kind of going over some mild swells.

Maybe I'm just looking for the rollercoaster when it's really just the bumper cars.

Jesse

Hey Jesse,

Ever shove a comic or movie or song at someone and insist they read it or watch it or listen to it, then stand there fidgeting while they do it? And then want feedback? And somehow ... it's always disappointing. The person shrugs, or says they like it but clearly doesn't flash on what was obviously the cool part, or finds something neat about it which is totally trivial and off-the-point ...

Such behavior is actually not sharing the item with the person. It's a plea for attention and recognition about oneself from the person. You don't want them to like it, you want them to like it your way, and for them to know it's your way.

The reason I bring this up is that people who do this often give up on the unsatisfying other humans and transfer the behavior to the work itself. They not only want to be surprised and impressed, but they want it right now and they want it their way. Absolutely anything else is an outright failure of the presentation. And nothing in that presentation could possibly be eligible for enjoyment, in retrospect - if it wasn't "right then," then it never will be or can be.

For instance, how do you know there wasn't a big roller-coaster drop two strips ago that you, personally, missed? Or that will turn out to be a one-two punch, when "two" hits a few weeks from now?

More specifically, why is the whole Aiga insight not eligible for exactly the sort of long-term story you've been asking about? Is it not possible that at least three other such things are available in the strips so far? And similarly, you pointed out yourself that I'm not letting the Birthroot plot element drop. But you were incredibly quick to say, "Birthroot? Cool!" (pause) "Oh, but it's not exactly and immediately what I want about the birthroot! It sucks!"

You seem very willing and quick to state that a given strip didn't "do it" for you, but whether "it" is even possible for you is beginning to look unlikely.

So, let's address that issue concretely. We'll stick with comics. Name a comic strip or title that really nailed it for you, in the last year. See, I'm not going to let you use something from earlier, because people often fondly remember what they evaluated using more flexible standards, but forgetting those standards.

Got one? Then tell me why and how. Didn't? Um-hmm.

Best,
Ron

Hello,

Whoa, that's interesting.  You also just described a good friend of mine to the letter.  Also, I never said this wasn't all about personal bias.  He has a tendency to give you things and if you don't automatically think it's the best thing ever then obviously you "don't get it."  But that's the problem here, I DON'T get it and I want to.  I may be wanting more turns and drops but maybe the real problem is I'm not even on the track.

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Name a comic strip or title that really nailed it for you, in the last year.

Easy.  Innies and Outies.  It can be found here:

http://www.inniesandouties.com

I recommend that strip to people and they look at me with that, "Who are you and what have you done with moody broody Jesse?" stare.  It's light and silly.  But if you read it in the long term it's also extremely moving.  No other work of fiction has made me cry as consistently and frequently as innies and outies.  Most strips are complete statements all by themselves but they all add up to something much bigger with really HUGE emotional payoffs once or twice a month.

And yeah, I've had people shrug off Innies and Outies before.  I don't THINK I've ever taken it very personally.

Back to Trollbabe for a moment.  Since we're putting the personal biases right on the table I will point out another factor.  Trollbabe the GAME evokes a certain feeling for me.  The cover art has a presense of majesty.  The mechanic of ever escalating stakes, all the rules about tight relationships and the perils that associating with Trollbabes brings, make me think of epic poems and ballads.  My favorite piece of art in the book is the Trollbabe kneeling over the fallen comrade on the battlefield.  It gets me every time.

So when you said that you were doing a Trollbabe comic strip I made a mistake.  I leapt to the conclusion that it would be something like Beowulf in art.  So when in the very first strip the first line of dialogue spoken by a Trollbabe is the word "Wild!" in a very modern slangy kind of way I was sort of tossed against a brick wall built by my own expectations and crumbled like a rag doll.  I don't think I've ever really recoved.

But then you did Birthroot Bargain which has EXACTLY the kind of mythic quality to it that I was expecting in the first place.  So, I was all confused again.

Sigh.

Eh.  What started out as just some raw thoughts has kind of turned whiney which wasn't my intent.

Jesse

QuoteBack to Trollbabe for a moment. Since we're putting the personal biases right on the table I will point out another factor. Trollbabe the GAME evokes a certain feeling for me. The cover art has a presense of majesty. The mechanic of ever escalating stakes, all the rules about tight relationships and the perils that associating with Trollbabes brings, make me think of epic poems and ballads. My favorite piece of art in the book is the Trollbabe kneeling over the fallen comrade on the battlefield. It gets me every time.

So when you said that you were doing a Trollbabe comic strip I made a mistake. I leapt to the conclusion that it would be something like Beowulf in art. So when in the very first strip the first line of dialogue spoken by a Trollbabe is the word "Wild!" in a very modern slangy kind of way I was sort of tossed against a brick wall built by my own expectations and crumbled like a rag doll. I don't think I've ever really recoved.

Actually, that summarizes my initial disconnect with the comics quite well also.  The comics made me wonder if perhaps I hadn't projected more "majesty" (good way to put it) into the game than Ron intended to be there.  He did write Elfs after all ;-)

Hi there,

OK, good - Jesse, I was kind of worried you were turning into your friend. Fortunately, not.

That's a good point from you and Ralph about the difference between the comic and the game. I've said before that I simply don't regard the two things as the same, and certainly not that one is a version of the other.

My own play of Trollbabe tends to be more serious than the strip. The humor is subtler and slower, and the plots/drama are faster and more up-front - the reverse of the strip. In other words, I don't think you and Ralph are mis-reading the game; it is definitely potentially heavy, and even when it's light, the characters have dignity and the world is lit up in a half-evening legendary way.

Whereas the strip is very nearly improvisational on my part - a story concept usually takes about six seconds to make it from premise to structure, maximum. It's also usually based around a single thing - a gag, a plot point relative to another story, a key factor in the character's personality, or sometimes just a cool image.

Perhaps it's asking too much for people to disconnect the two in their minds, or at least to take the comic strip on its own terms, for what it does offer.

I should also point out that, although I'll stand arrogantly with any game designer in the biz (and would have done so even before Sorcerer was over ten pages long out of sheer hubris), I consider myself a rather humble scribbler in terms of comics. Any pleasure a person gets from the strip (Jesse: The Birthroot Bargain and the end of Avatar is Plenty) is a bonus, to me.

Best,
Ron

QuotePerhaps it's asking too much for people to disconnect the two in their minds, or at least to take the comic strip on its own terms, for what it does offer.

That's a really interesting point, Ron.  One perhaps worth a disclaimer.  I certainly know I went into the comics by treating them like a visual variation on game fiction.  I was expecting them (despite vague recollections of similar comments you've made in the past) to be more or less game session transcripts or mood setting "how to play" pieces.  In fact I remember thinking to myself "Ron generally doesn't like game fiction...well, maybe he just likes comics enough to over ride that"

I certainly understand the artistic license of saying "bollux, this is this, and that is that"; but perhaps, given the close association of games and game fiction, its worth pointing out that the comics are their own stand alone entity in a more direct fashion.

Line me up next to Jesse & Ralph regarding the take on the Trollbabe game & the initial take on the comic strip. And my reaction to "The Birthroot Bargain" was exactly like Jesse's. But after that...I got over it. I guess I was able to disconnect the game & the strip.

I don't think it's asking too much of those who are already familiar with your work.  But I can't help but wonder if you aren't doing Trollbabe the game a diservice.  As Ralph pointed out many gamers are used to turning to game fiction to see what kind of "story" the game is supposed to produce.

If anyone could write something that would actually reflect what the mechanics support it would be you.  And if any game could actually facilitate production of stories like the samples given it would be Trollbabe.

So, I can imagine someone going to the comic to see what the game is all about and getting the wrong impression.

Jesse

Hmmm, a valid concern indeed.

Perhaps some text to clarify this can be added to the website.

In the meantime, any further chat about the stories so far is always welcome ... perhaps along the lines of something that someone, anyone, happens to like?

Best,
Ron

I've liked them all: with my standard caveat of comics not being my favorite medium and that my preferences would have been for more panels per strip (both of which you already know).

I like the inconclusive indeterminate endings, like who the possessed one really was in the first strip.  I'm also a fan of a good twist, so even though the funky 70s swinger vibe of the Avatar didn't really do it for me, the chick's "Ok, I'm in...whats it to you" response was priceless.

Birthroot was actually not my favorite, probably because it, more than any of the others ran afoul of my second preference above.  I literally had to read the thing 3-4 times to even figure out what the basic plot was...which quite possibly is just my own issue.  I REALLY like the idea behind it and the questions about how far one will go to have a child have definite Sorcerer-esque vibes (Tha is definitely a potential Sorcerer character).  But IMO the strip would have been helped enormously by additional panels providing more transition details.

Of all of the online comics I've browsed over the years, this is the only one I actually care to follow to the end.  I even find myself checking it out from time to time even without the whole story...which should tell you something right there :-)