The Forge Archives

I ran a game of good ol' (well, it's v3.5... so, "good new"?) D&D last night. All the D&D (all the RPGs in general) I've played in the past few years have been with one group that's usually a lot like roleplaying with a calculator, so I welcomed the chance to run D&D for a group of people who have never really played the game before.

When we made characters, I asked them to keep in mind a character type and said we'd make the classes fit them. I stuck mostly to the core books for this one, since everyone was new. Some people gave me more background to work with than others, and I told everyone that their background must end with their getting captured by someone. I told them that they don't need to tell me how, but they need to know how in case it came up.

The group consisted of the following:

Aja (played by my girlfried Tory): A half-elf rogue, Aja had been in training for an elite "recovery andextraction" group when a rival in her "class" deliberately loaded a practice trap she wa training on. The trap blew up and ruined half her face with acid burns.

Nubb Drumb (played by my friend Daryl): A halfling rogue. Daryl had played D&D maybe 15 years ago in high school, but this was his first 3.x game.

Thathaeger (played by Daryl's girlfriend Julie): A half-elf ranger. Julie wouldn't tell us if she'd played before. She revealed only that she had been betrayed and that that's how she got taken. I personally would love to know more.

An Elf Sorcerer (played by my friend Sean): An elf sorcerer whose name I can't remember (I'm bad with elf names... too many damn vowels). He had dissheleved hair and seemed to play more of the "scared waif" character than anyone else, which is always great.

Dirk Strongbad (played by my friend Keith): A human paladin who extold righteousness over any particular deity. I worried a bit about his name, but I let him have it. The point was to have fun, not to enforce my view of how D&D should be. Dirk ended up being a bit of "hero", which was good, because the other characters were all sneaky, clever types.

Desiring something different to start off the campaign, I decided to have them all captured before the first game (thus the bit in their backstories) and have them wake up in a crude prison cell underground. After some groggy "Who are you?s" and such, they set about trying to rouse the guard, a distracted-looking half-orc sitting at a desk in the room. They managed to get him riled up, and while Strongbad intimidated him (we decided that Strongbad had wounded the half-orc while he was being taken), the sorcerer used magic to retrieve the light mace that was sitting on the desk. By then the rogues had picked the cell door using small twigs they found in the hay lining the floor of the cell. The half-orc ran for the door, and Aja managed to charge out and slam the door shut, trapping the guard's hand in the door. Thathaeger decked the guard real nice, and he fell unconscious. They locked him in a cell and opened the other cell, which contained a sickly, starved halfling who could only say his name.

They left that room, passed by another door behind which a heated conversation (a human and two kobolds arguing about whether or not the human was allowed to go beat on the prisoners) was in danger of turning into a fight. The PCs decided to pass that room by and headed around the corner. Listening at the next door revealed a game of poker in play among a halfling and two or three more kobolds. Just as they got there, though, a fight broke out in the other room, and the poker players ran in to stop it. The PCs opened the door, began to loot the room, and were spotted once the fight died down.

They did something I've never seen a D&D group do in my 13 years of playing: They retreated.

they ran away, up the stairs behind them, killed a kobold hiding behind an arrow slit at the top of the stairs, and turned to face the oncoming baddies. Thathaeger took the kobold's crossbow and nailed the human hard in the chest, sending him down the stairs (taking two of the four kobolds with him). They killed everyone else and continued their way out.

They found an office, where records were being kept. Apparently, this was the hideout for a slavery ring that operates by selling slaves in the markets of nearby Geniir. They, however, were meant specifically to be sold to a particular Lord in Geniir, and special instructions were given that they not be "obviously harmed" in any way. They found a map, crates fullof incriminating evidence, and a trophy room that contained, among other things, halfling-sized gear that would suit a fairly well-experienced paladin. Fevver (the sickly halfling) claimed the gear with some reluctance, declaring that he didn't feel he still deserved Heironneous' grace.

On the way out, they ran into the boss, a half-orc named Kerik, and his two hobgoblin bodyguards. Strongbad decided to try Diplomacy, which managed to get Kerik's hand away from his morningstar, and the group convinced Kerik to just let them leave in return for pledging not to tell anyone about his operation. Of course, Kerik had other plans, and so he sent one of his bodyguards to help set up an ambush upstairs on the way out.

The PCs managed to survive and defeat the ambush, and they captured Kerik, bandaging his wounds so he wouldn't bleed to death. The interrogation (and the 5-day walk through the snow to Geniir) will come next session.

I enjoyed running this session quite a bit. Having not played D&D much before, the group seemed to be willing to do some things that experienced D&D groups aren't, in my experience. Things like diplomacy with the Big Bad, retreats, and a level of clever sneakiness that I hadn't seen much of before. I particularly liked that everyone had little background secrets that even I don't know; those can come up in the future, and they'll be exciting unknowns even for me.

I was impressed with how they managed to emerge from that situation not only alive, but almost fully equipped (everyone has a spear, the paladin has full plate and a morningstar, the sorcerer has a wand of Charm Person, and everyone else has leather armor), after starting literally without the clothes on their backs.

For the next session, I plan to slow things down and play out some campfire scenes, in which the characters get a chance to bond after their experience. I plan to invite the players to tell their characters' backgrounds as much as they like in-character. If they want me to tie them in to the plot more, I'll give them the option of telling me any important details of their past (for example, Aja's recovery group might come looking for her, or even be hired to find the group at some later date).

I am used to playnig D&D as if I were a human AI, rolling dice and adding numbers. This session reminded me that a game is just a game without the right people to play it with.

Hi Jay,

What really interests me, right off the top, is how your group hit upon what Robin Laws identified as the two main avenues for inter-character conflict in D&D.

#1 is the rogue ("thief" of course to us oldies), and #2 is the paladin. You got'em both, and they seem to be very solid ones. On the one hand, the character concept is well-suited for issues of self-interest over party-interest, and on the other the concept is well-suited for issues of Greater Good over party-interest. The more danger you pose uniquely and directly to the party, the more fun can be had through these conflicts of interest.

The campfire scenes you're proposing seem admirably suited to the group as well, in part because hints about all the secrets can emerge, and certain contexts for the above, rather abstract potential conflicts I described can be established as well. Given those contexts, the conflicts can then develop into great dramatic and/or tactical scenes, as opposed to being breaches of contract (as so often happens in the absence of those contexts).

How are you handling the reward system? I'd be very interested in your schema for experience points: rate of delivery, basis, division among party members, everything.

Best,
Ron

I've used the canon XP division system so far. The first scenario was, essentially, a "getting to know D&D" tutorial of sorts, and so there was a fair bit of fighting and trap-negotiating. The D&D XP system works great for that sort of thing, I think. I split the XPs up five ways (didn't split for the halfling ex-paladin NPC, since he was too feeble to fight... though once he gets back to strength, he'll trigger a plot of his own). Treasure so far has gone to whoever could use it; the paladin got weapons and armor first, the sorcerer kept the potions, etc.

For non-combat/trap situations that still merit reward, I was considering an equivalent of a Hero Point system, but I worry that might break the D&D feel a bit. I don't like the idea of rewarding class XP for role-playing, except in certain situations, because I don't think that talking about your past in an engaging manner will necessarily make you a better paladin or ranger. However, those things should be rewarded, I think, or at least given incentive. It would seem that plot rewards would be best there; obviously, the more they reveal about their backstories and personalities, the more I can customize the plot to their specific characters. Instead of say, having a gang of assassins come after them, I can instead have some of Aja's old acquaintances coming to re-acquire an artifact the players took from a tomb--and maybe her rival is at the head of that coterie. If she shares her story to the group, maybe they can work together to get to the bottom of Thathaeger's betrayal.

Of course, that sounds just like good, attentive plotting to me, and that's a reward in itself. Personally, I love the idea of having more plots to use than just the toss-away crawl through a dungeon.

Perhaps that's the key.  
Make the reward literally a plot device.

Whenever a player does something you want to reward hand them a slip of paper that says "I.O.U.  1 plot device".  The player can then write on it and give it back to you with "I want to cross paths with old rivals from the Blue Brotherhood", "A local alderman in this town used to be a member of the Black Hand gang."  that sort of thing.

No different really than what you would likely do anyway, but with a just bit of structure to make earning those IOUs something the players will want to do.

Arcana Unearthed uses Hero Points, and they work pretty well; in fact, with all the breath D&D spends on talking about how the characters are hardcore adventurers, cream-of-the-commoner-crop, they've still got those biggie whiffs in there, can still be taken down by a couple of stray arrows.

Best way to use them is just to allow the points to play to the system. For example, the AU points allow your next roll a +20 to hit; if it would normally have hit, it criticals; and cascade from there. Or they can give you an extra round whenever you want, even if you've already acted that round. Or to cast a spell without using a spell slot, et cetera.

Out of curiousity, were you running a modified version of the adventure from the Basic Dungeons & Dragons (early 90s reprint of 80s stuff)? Paganini ran a few of us through that last night over at #indierpgs and aside from some mark issues, looks pretty close.

Off-the-cuff DM advice for some future games, having played a lot of 3E and starting a .5 game here pretty soon:
* Use more monsters at a lower CR, rather than one guy with a high CR.
* Avoid overland combat unless it's plot-necessary; keep fights to the dungeons
* If you get concerned with treasure balance, stick to the Average Wealth table (it's printed two or three times in the DMG).

Characters sound pretty awesome so far, hope to hear more of it!

I  was  actually thinking of  Arcana  Unearthed when  I thought about Hero Points. I  don't remember the situations in which Monte Cook suggests you reward them, however. Hero Points is just one of those game mechanics that, for some reason, I feel like I want to avoid, if I can. Maybe they just seem ubiquitous (I run a lot of Buffy with my other group).  

The plot point IOU idea is interesting. I mean, it's something I'd do anyway, but it does suggest to the players that they can come up with plot points themselves. I'll have to give that one some thought.

I ran a scenario I wrote myself, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was an old adventure that was similar. Escaping from prison, and even from slavers, can't be that unique a plot for a D&D game. :)

For the advice, I learned the low-CRs-good advice recently. I typically plan for a Big Bad a CR or two lower than I'd like, and give him a handful of lower CR guards. Last night, the slavers' boss (a level 2 rogue) had two lvl 1 warrior guards. Of course, the way the players RPed the situation split them up, but that's smart play on their part.

Why caution against overland combat? Unless you consider things like urban skirmishes and forest ambushes to be dungeon situations (in the loosest definition of dungeon, being "an enclosed adventuring area").

I use treasure generators to figure out my treasure. I'm not overly worried about balance yet.

For the hero points, AU suggests very sparingly, and only when you do something really heroic, not just every-day adventuring shenanigans. You have to take a feat just to start with a point at 1st level! Most games would generally hand them out every level, minimum. The downside with the AU  approach is that players hoard 'em, and can be afraid to use them even if they really, really need to.

As far as dungeon encounters go, most of the classes, feats, spells and creatures are balanced in regards to enclosed environments; when you start taking away the walls and 10'-wide-hallways, some weird things can crop up, and attacks that might normally be of only middling consequence swing widely to one end or the other, and usually in favour of the bad guys. Although there's nothing quite like seeing the fighter get surrounding on all sides by enemies, drop one target.. and Great Cleave through the remaining 7 on one long, beautiful, follow-through attack.

There's also the tendency that most of the interesting stuff happens in dungeons; that's why it's Dungeons & Dragons. Delving into crypts or the Underdark or the Villain's Castle or such are the main focus points. The overland encounters usually just get in the way of that action. I guess it's a scene framing thing, and is totally my preference; I prefer to hop from dungeon to dungeon, with roleplaying stuff in between but no combat.

I see what you mean. Personally, I think I see forest adventures and battles in the streets to be "dungeons" in their way. The problem with going into a dark, stony place each time they want to fight stuff is that I have a ranger in the group, and a ranger in a dungeon is mostly a weak fighter/rogue. I want to have her feel useful and unique as much as possible.

Which is interesting, because I'd planned for this to evolve into a bit of an urban campaign (leading them into a Lawful Evil city where they were meant to be sold as slaves, and where a larval rebellion waits for motivators).

With all due respect, I'd like to offer wildly contrary advice to Anonymous.

My D&D games (largely well recieved) have universally involved:

1)  Very large Big Bads (usually 1-2 CR higher than the party level) and very little else in the way of combat unless they make it for themselves (picking fights, wandering into gang turf, etc.)
2) Strictly urban and outdoor combat -- generally a few small skirmishes as they come up in plot and a "set piece" showdown with the Big Bad.
3)  Treasure strictly as plot device.

I think that the key here is that a lot of the tactical ramifications of open combat vanish when you're only fighting one thing.  That, and we don't play with highly tactical maps and full tactical movement rules.  And ditch the XP table in favor of fiat (you all go up a level when I tell you that you do).

The other thing is that, as long as you consider the abilities of your antagonists, the changing tactical situation ain't necessarily bad.  Yes, a sorcerer with Fireball can destroy an army of thousands, but if he's a PC sorcerer you should let him be cool and if he's an NPC sorcerer... well... let the PCs be among the few survivors of the inferno.

It sounds like your game is off to a good start.  I know that System Does Matter and all that, but I'm very glad to see someone else here at the Forge talking about D&D as a real, honest-to-goodness role-playing experience and not just a retro-ironic-dungeon crawl.

Thanks, Ben.

It's still a bit early to tell what my players enjoy. They seem to like interaction and having multiple ways to solve problems, which is good. That makes for a challenge in creating scenarios that usually makes for less prep work and more on-my-feet work during the game.

I won't dump the XP table completely, though I may have an alternate for chapters where the outcome doesn't depend on fighting as much. The bottom line is that in D&D, the classes improve based on adventuring and fighting, and the XP table handles that nicely.

A thought about the plot IOU: Maybe when a player roleplays something, say, getting information in the criminal underworld, they get the chance to flesh out a contact or two that they met along the way. If they simply roll and pay lip service to RP, they don't get that.

The thing here is, I'm not looking to improve D&D or alter it in any way. I don't see anything wrong with heading into a dungeon and killing stuff. Rather, I want to play D&D, more or less as intended, keeping in mind that D&D doesn't have to be just going into dungeons and killing stuff.

For treasure, I generally give them items that their opponents were carrying and using. Where it makes sense for there to be more, I put more. I'm not too worried about the PCs getting too much cash at the moment; I'm too inexperienced with DMing 3.5 to spend too much time cross-referencing tables at the moment. :)

If ignoring a lot of the tactical movement stuff then Ben's spot-on. I still think having only a single target (unless it's something obscenely mighty like a dragon) is just asking for the players to kill it in three rounds (lots of experience here with this).

I'd also agree that, especially with a ranger in the group, you need some outdoorsy stuff, or "dungeons" (however you want to define that) with a larger proportion of Earth-like flora and fauna (bats, pine trees, and so on). My point was just that things tend to balance out better with pretty well-defined walls and/or terrain, wherever that happens to occur.

And lest we run into that dreaded "deprotagonisation".. play to your ranger's Favoured Enemies. This is the single biggest issue with the class. If they take "Outsiders" and your storyline only involves abberations and animals, you've just seriously axed her ability to contribute.

And, er. I turned this into advice stuff. Sorry. =/ I shall now zip my lip and await more posts, unless otherwise asked for input. ;)

Quote from: anonymouseIf ignoring a lot of the tactical movement stuff then Ben's spot-on. I still think having only a single target (unless it's something obscenely mighty like a dragon) is just asking for the players to kill it in three rounds (lots of experience here with this).

BL>  I have played a lot of D&D and I have never, with the exception of mass combat scenes or one-on-one duels between high-level fighter characters, seen combats (with any number of opponents) go over five rounds.  If there are rogues involved, subtract one round, at least.  For my money, this is a feature, not a bug.  I have spent over 10 hours in a single 2nd ed combat scene with high-level (around 13th) characters.  Dull...

 As for the single big-bad 3-4 round fight: give it escape options and the whole situation changes.  I ran a game in which the players had a hell of a time tracking a 6th level thief all over a city, because he kept back-stabbing them and then retreating. (good workout for the ranger and the gather-information heavy bard, that one...)

Anyway, this is somewhat of a digression, as you point out.

yrs--
--Ben

Hrm. I may steal that "tracking the target all over the city" idea from whomever it was that originally had it. :)

Anyway, there won't be more Actual Play in this thread until we actually play again, which will hopefully be this weekend. I'm trying to figure out if I should run a low-level module (The Sunless Citadel) or get them directly to the urban conflict I had in mind.

having played The Sunless Citadel (TSC) as both a tabletop module and a NWN module, I would recommend against it; the good thing is that it's an easy, low-level dungeon crawl; the bad thing is: that it's an easy, low-level dungeon crawl. IOW, the difficulty level is pretty good, but as far as interesting, well, it's not really. Our DM used it as a launching point because we wanted to play D&D 3rd and he didn't have anything made up, so we just kind of ran with that and then wandered off from there. You can probably come up with something better on your own..

eudas

And I believe I have. I have a somewhat shortish bit involving a wizard who summoned a demon hoping it would bring his dead wife back to life. It did, of course, but not the way he hoped. The insectoid demon infested the woman's corpse and wears her like a jacket, and it has since infested the wizard and most of his servants, creating a small ant-like army of mindles drones. The PCs will stumble upon this as they seek shelter from the cold outside.

Of course, they'll find a small group of survivors, including the wizard's svirfneblin apprentice and a handful of goblins.

This adventure will introduce the PCs to information about the local area, including the white dragon that lives in the mountains, Oakhurst (a small town and protectorate of nearby Geniir), and Geniir, a city run by a ruthless general who stands behind a puppet aristocrat.

I have so many things planned for them to do that I feel pretty confident letting them choose after the next game. Do they want to find out about the dragon, figure out why the ghosts of executed criminals wander the poor areas of town, track down the origin of the strange charcoal-colored steel used in the armor for the top officers in the army, or face down the gang of wererats attempting to toss a monkeywrench in the otherwise well-oiled Geniir machine?

Should be fun. We're playing this weekend, so hopefully I'll have more then. I'd like the players to spend some time bonding in-character, so we'lll see how that goes. Plus, a couple of them have expressed interest in giving me some background ammo to use in future stories.

More later. :)