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I'm fairly convinced that Fastlane is pretty close to being ready for pdf publishing (I want at least an ashcan physical product ready for Indy, but a pdf seems appropriate to start).  Its rules are relatively complete, it is playable (and has been playtested a number of times to confirm this).

That said, the whole idea of art in an rpg book actually contributing to the game baffles me.  Entirely.  I don't notice it, as far as I can tell it does not impact me, and any mention of it being a positive factor in a game pretty much causes my eyes to glaze over.  I'm aware, intellectually, that it is a positive boon for the majority of the members of the RPG community, but it is a concept I simply am unable to grasp emotionally, where it's most likely to count.

So, it's become increasing obvious that I need to hire someone (or stumble across someone willing to volunteer, but less be realistic here) who is actually able to grasp these concepts, who can (a) provide interior art* for Fastlane, and (b) can layout the text and art so they actually complement each other in such a way that they'd actually appeal to the potential average consumer.  As long as I'm dreaming, I'd also like this phantom person to be able to design a character sheet and other game-use documents and diagrams.

Where could I find such a saviour?  And how much would his services cost?

*Only interior art. A pdf has no real cover, per se, so I am not going to put any thought whatsoever into cover art until I have to create a physical copy of the game, which would have a cover.

About a cover, surely you'll need one, even in PDF? It just won't be a book cover, but a recognizable picture you put on your web-page or wherever you sell the thing. The central picture is as important in web-marketing as in old-style, I'd say, as it really is what focuses your product. Take a look how mr. Edwards has structured his Sorcerer-pages: the cover is a pivotal element there.

Anyway, most of those things you mention are actually relatively easy to do. Layout, if you really have no eye for it (which is hard to believe, as it's mostly a matter of good taste), can be done by plagiarizing a similar product. For the character sheets, layout and such you'll only need a heavy text editor like word, and a pdf-converter or whatever-those-programs-are-called.

The art is really the only problem, as one would have to know how to draw or something. Consider using abstract art or photographs, which neither have to date been used too succesfully in rpgs, but are certainly a stable in other products. If you yourself don't really care about it, my advice would be to use only the minimum amount, which really is almost zero with the right layout (but don't forget that iconic cover art, it's important).

I'd expect somebody to volunteer in a while, but if nobody does, PM me. I can help with the edit/layout angle at least, as long as you don't need magazine level effects there (talking about that Word, I am, if I'm working for free).

I've never really seen a book cover as very identifiable in marketing, but then I'm not really privy to the inner thoughts of the vast majority of humans, who are one or two standard deviations away from me.  It's always seemed (to me) that the displaying-of-a-cover was just a placeholder, or a way for people to maybe recognize the same book if they see it physically in a store.

Is it really all that pivotal?

(Maybe this should be in the publishing forum?  Hrm.)

Layout - Yes, I really have no eye for it.  I know what works for me, which is very different for "what works for someone who actually pays attention to these things."  The only time I notice layout is when it gets in the way.

Art is also a problem for me because, not only would I have to know how to draw something, as you pointed out, but also I would need to have some idea of what art would complement a section, and where the art should go, etc., which in part goes back to layout, and in part goes to the whole "I'm not a visual person" thing.  To me, interior art in a gaming product usually sabotages the accompanying text, by drawing the eye away from the text and to the art.

QuoteIf you yourself don't really care about it, my advice would be to use only the minimum amount, which really is almost zero with the right layout.

I would love, LOVE to believe this.  But the games that seem to sell, and the comments of hundreds or thousands of consumers, seem to suggest that "almost zero" is a sin, rather than a goal to be attained.

Lx, my suggestion would be to talk to Luke Crane who did The Burning Wheel.  He's abzu on the Forge.  I don't know if you've ever seen the Burning Wheel books, but they are in my opinion the best looking RPG books ever made.  They are also the best looking paperbacks i've ever seen, and i think they look way nice than most hardcovers.  Part of it's the colors, part simplicity, part some undefinable something.  Cover art is not a big deal, it almost blends in with the cover itself.  So i guess i would say that cover art is not a nessecity, but some sort of logo is.  You do want something for people to remember...

Thomas

Original Traveller had no art.  It contributed to its unique style, imho.

InSpectres had no art.

I don't think art is nearly as important in a PDF game as in a dead tree edition.

In a PDF game people are spending their own (or their employer's...) $$ on ink, and they -- well, I -- resent being forced to spend a ton of it printing out art.  I want black text on white pages, laid out in an easy to read way, and that's all, in a PDF game.

If I have to spend my precious ink on art, it better be absolutely tremendously wonderful art -- and it better be black on white, preferably thin lines. :)

The print version of InSpectres has art (I just checked!).  For whatever reason, I don't have access to the pdf.  I also know nothing about Original Traveller, as it was Before My Time.

However, I'd like the same amount of art in the pdf and dead tree editions of the game, so any interior art decisions I make, I'm making now, not later.  I take your point on using as little ink as possible though, something I completely agree on.

I'm also taking Euro's commentary about an "iconic cover image" under advisement.  Right now I'm thinking of a photograph of just a roulette wheel, up close.

Just to be clear, the current version of Inspectres has art, but the original did not. I have a printed copy, and it's got a small Inspectres logo on the front, and that's as close to anything like art that's in it. In fact, Jared's point in doing so was to make it look like the sort of training manual that you get when you join a corporation. And I think that version succeeds admirably at that. I was sad to see art in the new edition.

I guess my point is that if you can make the lack of art a feature of the presentation, that this probably goes a long way to making it palatable for some folks who prefer to have art.

OTOH, I'm biased, as I pretty much would prefer all my gaming material to be without art. I think it's interesting that only RPGs have art in their rules.

Mike

I'm a strong proponent of 0% art.

But those people who are my purported consumers have convinced that, in order to be consumed, my game should have art.

Perhaps I should spit in their faces and create a game without visual art.  It's certainly the more attractive options.

Which just leads layout, of which I've gotten a few offers already.

And to be further clear, the new InSpectres with art is also intended to be a coporate training manual. Of course, I think it succeeded in that spectacularly. Ahem. ....

"I know Jared Sorensen, Mr. Quayle, and you're no Jared Sorensen."

No art works. For anyone. Just get a layout that acknowledges this. Not an easy task, I argue (and not without experience!).

Quote from: LxndrIt's always seemed (to me) that the displaying-of-a-cover was just a placeholder, or a way for people to maybe recognize the same book if they see it physically in a store.

Is it really all that pivotal?

Well, there are some very clear examples about the importance of the cover. My favourite is how most heavy, hardcover rules books for D&D now imitate the color scheme and texture of the basic books, creating the implication that they too can be as crucial and everyday part of your gaming session. And it works too; I tend to recognize these "Book of Ultimate Magic Swords" type books right away. It even works backwards: Softcover books with a painting representing humans tends to signal setting or adventure books in the current d20 scene.

Not to waste time with any more anecdotal evidence, I'd say that covers and other visuals are an imperative element in shallow-level marketing. I myself don't care a fig about pictures per se, but they do help in fast decoding of the book.

Quote

QuoteIf you yourself don't really care about it, my advice would be to use only the minimum amount, which really is almost zero with the right layout.

I would love, LOVE to believe this.  But the games that seem to sell, and the comments of hundreds or thousands of consumers, seem to suggest that "almost zero" is a sin, rather than a goal to be attained.

This is an interesting question, and I still stay with my first opinion. It's quite possible to do the layout without art, staying with just iconography as it's called hereabouts; fonts, sidebars, blown citations, column play, symbols, etc. Take a look at how many pages in Heroquest, for example, have as the only design element a black box with a short sentence.

As to popular opinion, that really doesn't play a too big role in the marketing stage if you ask me. Nobody buys a PDF-product based on how it looks inside. Concentrate on the cover and the material potential buyers are going to see.

The games that sell sell because they seem aproachable; I won't go to that deeper on this forum, so suffice to say that you shouldn't make any bad decisions because of something you perceive about the tastes of the public.

QuoteI'm also taking Euro's commentary about an "iconic cover image" under advisement. Right now I'm thinking of a photograph of just a roulette wheel, up close.

Interestingly, I got the same idea when considering this matter today. I was also thinking how much of the iconography and such can be build from roulette: You're anyway needing at least a diagram or two about roulette tables in the rules section, and so on. Page numbers are easy to embed in club and heart symbols and so on, casino imagery is easy to use.

It's Eero by the way, not Euro. Euro is the currency here.

Ack.  I think I elided your name.  Sorry bout that.

Well, off to hire a photographer to get me a roulette wheel photo...

I believe there's some links to stock photo places in one of the Forge pages.

I''d be willing, but I'm not sure about my available time...to create some art ...but I can't commit right now.

Dissenting opinion here.*

*art. art! Art! ART! ART!!!! 0% art sucks! Not just sucks, but blows hairy goatballs. I like art. I want art. Art does not get in my way. In fact, I want more art. I want graphic, friggin' novels. I want words AND pictures! Make it a narrated movie and I'll orgasm.

No Raven, its okay, tell us how you really feel.  :)

Alex, I'm interested in helping you out with it.  As for the whole Art/no art thing, I don't think a lot of art is necessary.  It can be helpful in communicating your vision for the game (not everyone is entirely text based...heh)  but not strictly necessary.  I would go Logo or small illo on the cover with the title and keep the interior pretty clean I think.


regards,

Trevis

I've started a new thread for "Art: Yea or Nay?" in Publishing:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=8725

Now let's keep this thread to "Lxndr Finding Layout (and maybe Art) Gurus"?  :)