The Forge Archives

For a discussion of responsibility management and group challenge, as well as an introduction to the game design goals, please see the previous thread for Tactics:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=8551&highlight=

In this thread I will be discussing the basic resolution mechanics, the nature of special abilities, and possibly advancement and modularity.  When looking at these materials, keep in mind the basic system goal of a tactically interesting Gamist game (not necessarily strategically interesting) which is run cooperatively by the group.

Ability Scores:
In normal tactics structure, all ability scores are based on present class + abilities -- none are intrinsic to the character.  There are four initiative scores.

Initiative:  This score determines your place in the turn order, and nothing else.

Movement:  This score indicates how far the unit can move in one turn.

Active: This score determines the ability of the character to attack, persuade, or do anything to anyone else.

Passive:  This score indicates the character's ability to resist anything, as well as detection and anything not covered under Active.

(Question:  Should Initiative and Movement be combined into one score, for simplicity?)

Resolution

6.1 Principles:  There are two types of resolution: Static Comparisons and Dynamic Comparisons.  All resolutions are Static (number vs. number) or dynamic (roll vs. roll.)

6.2 Static comparisons:  In Static comparisons, a higher score always beats a lower score.  Ties are resolved by primary class level (as a static score).  Further ties are resolved by coin flip, or a single die roll off.  Static comparisons can use margin of success.  If the initial comparison was a tie, the margin of success is considered to be 0.

6.2.1 Damage:  Damage is a specific type of static comparison (between the attacker's Active and the Defender's passive) in which margin of success is considered.  For damage effects, it is best to consult the chart provided in the back of the book.

6.3 Dynamic comparisons:  Roll a number of dice equal to your score.  Highest dice showing wins.  In the event of a tie, reroll all dice equal to the tied value in a second contest.
   All dice must have the same number of sides, and be evenly weighted.  The standard dice for Tactics is a normal 6 sided dice, although other types dice can be used without overly affecting probability (note: I need to check and make sure that this is true.)

6.3.1 The Law of Chance -- Any time that a dynamic contest is called for, it must be rolled.  There is no "yielding" in dynamic contests.  If there is a case where one or the other party may decide that there is no contest (such as Entrance Tests) it will be stated specifically.

6.3.2 The Law of Dumb Luck -- Scores can be reduced below one, but in any dynamic contest, each participant can roll at least one dice.  The one exception to this is when penalties caused through (that character's) Flaws reduce a character below one in some attribute.  If this is the case, they automatically fail.

(Questions:  What is the probability of a dynamic comparison with d6?  Is a "no margin of success" on dynamic comparison a good idea?  Why or why not?  I have this feeling in my gut that it makes planning and manipulation of the board easier, but don't exactly know why.)0

A Standard Turn

7.1. Turn Order

   At the beginning of the mission, determine turn order for PCs and active NPCs.  This is a static contest of Initiative.  Initiative, being static, is only resolved once -- in particular, characters with identical initiatives roll randomly once and only once to determine their place in the order.
   It may be useful for the participants to sit in turn order, as well as noting the turn order on a piece of paper or whiteboard.
   A note on timing:  In general, there is no defined "beginning" or "end" of a "round --" participants merely take actions in cyclic order until the end of the mission.  When an effect is said to last a certain number of "rounds" that means full cyclic repetitions from the time when the effect originated.

7.2. Action order

   During a character's turn, that character can take the following actions in this specfic order.

7.2.1. Move
   The character may move.  Each turn, the character has a number of MP (movement points) equal to her Movement score.  These may be used for the following:

7.2.1.1 Combat Movement -- In tactical combat, the character may spend a number movement point to move to an adjacent square.  This is usually 1, but may be more if the square is uphill or otherwise difficult to move into.  The unit may not move into or through an enemy occupied square.

7.2.1.2 Narrative Movement and Entrance Tests -- In tactical narrative, the character spend any number of MP to roll that many dice in "entrance test" against an adjacent Set.  The opposition of the entrance test is either 1) a difficulty set during Narrative Layout, 2) a difficulty adjudicated by the Judge or 3) the Movement (should this be Passive?) score of of any character presently occupying the Set who opposes your entrance.  Entrance difficulties can, in some cases, be 0, in which case entrance is automatic.

7.2.1.3 Other uses -- Certain special abilities may allow you to spend MP to do other things.  This is always done during the movement phase.

7.2.1.4  Facing -- at the end of movement, the unit may turn to face any direction.

7.2.2. Declare Action
   The character may then declare an action.  This will often by an attack, but it can also be any number of other actions provided by Class Abilities.  After the character declares the action, anyone who has the ability to react must declare reaction.

7.2.3. Determine Outcome
   Roll the necessary test for the action -- usually the active character's Active versus his target's Passive, plus modifiers.  If there are multiple targets, each participant only rolls once -- compare the single attacking roll against each defense roll in turn.

7.2.4. Narrate / Play outcome
   Determine what actually happened -- this could be anything from a brief description (you run your sword through his gut) to a long, drawn out scene, depending on the type of action and the predilections of the participant group.

7.2.5. Facing
   At the end of a tactical combat round, the character may turn to face any direction. (question: is the double facing round good or bad, from the perspective of tactical interest?)

7.3. Attacks
   One of the most common actions in Tactics is the Attack, assumed as a Basic Action by most settings.

7.3.1. Resolution
   The basic attack can target a unit in a directly adjacent square that the attacking unit is presently facing towards.  The roll is the Attacker's Active vs the Target's Passive.  If the attacker is successful, damage is calculated.
   This basic system is modified by a very large number of special abilities.

7.3.1.1. Attack Modifiers
   If the attacker has high ground (no more than 1 elevation) they gain a +1 to their attack roll.
   If the defender has high ground, they gain +1 to their attack roll.
   Special Abilities give many other modifiers.

7.3.2. Damage
   Damage is calculated by a special static comparison of the attacker's Active against the target's Passive. (what this is is not wildly important for this discussion.)

7.2.3.2 Situational Damage Modifiers
   This base value is altered by a great many special abilities, as well as certain situational modifiers.  In particular, the relative facing of the defending unit is important:
   Attacks to the front of the unit subtract one from damage
   Attacks to the side of the unit use base damage
   Attacks to the back of the unit add two damage

   All diagonal hits are considered to generate the least amount of damage, facing wise (so diagonal from the front is consider Front, and diagonal from the back is considered Side)  Note that diagonal squares are not considered adjacent, and normal attacks cannot strike in this way.
   All non directional strikes (i.e. area effects, missile fire) do base (side) damage.

7.4. Other Actions
   There are, of course, things that character can do besides attack each other.

7.4.1. Special Abilities
   Many characters have special abilities which allow them to take unusual actions.  These have specific rules listed along with their class.

7.4.2. Description Actions
   A character may attempt an action which is appropriate to her class, but which does not have a specific ability attached to it.  In this case, the character rolls their class level for the effects of this ability -- usually against the Passive of their target.

To give you all an idea of what a "description action" can do, here is a description from the "Student" one of the easiest classes to access in the "standard setting" of the game, a French Revolutionesque political setting:

Description:  Students from Valacia's cities have studied the philosophers and science of old, and from them have drawn a new philosophy of equality and justice for all the peoples of the Nation.  Taking their cause out of the classroom and into the streets, their protests have spurred a revolutionary movement of soldiers, farmers, and criminals.  Whether these revolutionaries will be doomed to be a footnote in history or will found a glorious new republic, however, remains to be seen...


So, in general, does this sort of framework support the goals?  Is it tactically interesting to maneuver units around, etc?  Can loosy-goose description actions co-exist with more hardcoding action such as 'attack with spear?'  Do you think that one or the other will end up getting used more often?  Why?

Thanks very much for your reading this long post, and all comments that you give.

yrs--
--Ben

I think the resolution system looks sufficient for play. I would keep Initiative and Movement separate (as both are valuable; perhaps rename Initiative as Reaction or Intuition or such?). However, how many dice are likely to be rolled, i.e. how do the stats scale?

Also, would players be considered specialized in certain tasks (i.e. archers with a crossbow vs. barbarians) and how would you account with this difference? (Perhaps restriction the actions of certain tasks.) What is the timeframe of each players' turn, and should they percieve the in-game events as happenning temporaneously or sequentailly?

I'm looking forward to seeing the larger parts of this as they come about.

Quote from: DevI think the resolution system looks sufficient for play. I would keep Initiative and Movement separate (as both are valuable; perhaps rename Initiative as Reaction or Intuition or such?).

BL>  Interesting.  If it was called "Intuition" I feel that it would cover Perception, which was slightly out of place in Passive anyway.  *mulls*

Quote from: Dev
However, how many dice are likely to be rolled, i.e. how do the stats scale?

BL>  Essentially, the scores range from 1 to 5, hovering around 2 usually (most classes are something like 2, 2, 3, 4, attribute-wise, although this fluctuates widely.)  In addition, you can get up to around +5 or +6 bonus from special abilities, conceivably even more.  (Samurai, to pick a class name at random, have the ability to expend movement points to raise their passive, so they can get passives upwards of 12 or so.)

That said, I think that dice have a harsh diminishing returns in this system, so that the difference between 10 and 12 is not nearly as high as the differences between 2 and 4.  I'm not certain of this, and would love it if Walt would work his probabalistic magic on the resolution method.

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Also, would players be considered specialized in certain tasks (i.e. archers with a crossbow vs. barbarians) and how would you account with this difference? (Perhaps restriction the actions of certain tasks.) What is the timeframe of each players' turn, and should they percieve the in-game events as happenning temporaneously or sequentailly?

BL>  The game is, in itself, a game.  It is flamingly non-sim.  In that light, the "time-frame" for the player's turns is just that -- a turn.  They happen sequentially, in initiative order, repeating infinitum.
 If you want to get into the nitty-gritty, a turn is a unit of dramatic or tactical time.  For some situations, it might be quite long.  For others, it might be quite short.  I guess I haven't really considered the details therein.

 As to the handling of skills, that gets into class abilities.

 Which I was hoping to handle in a different post, but might as well just handle here.

Each class is defined by the following things:
1 Description
4 Attribute Scores
1 Major Ability
2 Minor Abilities

1 Unlocked Minor Ability
1 Unlocked Major Ability
1 Unlocked Flaw

Leaving beside the Unlocks for right now, which are more complicated, "being" a class means that you take on the attribute scores and abilities of that class.  So, for instance, the Archer class would give you the Ability: Equip Bow, which allows for ranged attacks, and possibly adds a bonus to damage or attack rolls, but doesn't stack with any other weapon equip abilities.  Another ability might be "Focus" which allows you to expend movement points to add dice (probably 2-1) to an attack.

So an Archer is different from a Barbarian because the Archer has the Equip Bow ability, thus allowing him to use bows free and clear.

Now, the question is:  Do the quite specific class abilities mesh with the vague and general description abilities?  If not, can they?

yrs--
--Ben

Ok.  In answer to your note on whether it matters what die size you are using for this: the way i read it no.  If you were not rerolling the high tie (which would leave you with something very similar to Sorcerer) then it would matter, but i don't think it matters at all with the reroll.  However, the smaller the die the more rerolls you will have to deal with.  If everyone is rolling 4+ dice then i'd consider upping the "default."  If the average is around 3 you should be ok.

I like the Stats as listed, nice and simple.  It seems to indicate a serious focus on the special abilities (which is probably a good thing.)

I second the move to keep Initiative.

I oppose the two facing phases.  If you want to attack someone then you are going to have to expose yourself to a possible attack from the side or from behind.

I'd be interested in seeing Movement changed to Action and then requiring points to be spent for any action.  This would allow you to have powerful spells and such that take more Action Points (and thus allow less movement.)  I'm not sure how well it would balance since it would also regulate the number of spaces you could move per turn...  It also presents the possibility of allowing multiple attacks per turn.

I'm still not clear on what General Description Abilities do...  Maybe you could elaborate on that a bit.

Thomas

Quote from: LordSmerfOk.  In answer to your note on whether it matters what die size you are using for this: the way i read it no.  If you were not rerolling the high tie (which would leave you with something very similar to Sorcerer) then it would matter, but i don't think it matters at all with the reroll.  However, the smaller the die the more rerolls you will have to deal with.  If everyone is rolling 4+ dice then i'd consider upping the "default."  If the average is around 3 you should be ok.

BL>  I believe it does make a difference, but I believe that that difference is pretty small.  I use d6 because I own a lot of them.  d10s are also totally legitimate.  The "Average" die roll fluctuates between 3-5.  I think.  Things are unplaytested.

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I second the move to keep Initiative.

BL>  It is kept.

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I oppose the two facing phases.  If you want to attack someone then you are going to have to expose yourself to a possible attack from the side or from behind.

BL>  These were my thoughts against.  The reason to keep double facing is that, among other things, it emulates the source material.  I also like the idea of being able to attack and then face in rounds where you haven't moved.  Perhaps there could be two facing rounds, but you only use one of them...  That seems a bit complex for a simple problem, but...

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I'd be interested in seeing Movement changed to Action and then requiring points to be spent for any action.  This would allow you to have powerful  regulate the number of spaces you could move per turn...  It also presents the possibility of allowing multiple attacks per turn.

BL>  This is an interesting idea.  I'm worried that it would reward brute fighting (stand there and hit each other) more than maneuvering.  Thoughts?

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I'm still not clear on what General Description Abilities do...  Maybe you could elaborate on that a bit.

Sure.  Description Abilities allow you to do all the things that  your character ought to be able to do, but can't because he doesn't have a specific ability.  For instance, say a Student wanted to quote some old philosopher to impress a noble.  There is no "quote philosophy" ability, nor should there be.  So the student's player could say:  "Look, I'm a Student, I should be able to know this" and the rest of the group would most likely say "sure, you can do that.  Roll your class level."

Make sense?

yrs--
--Ben

Ok.  If you use action points i see the following happen.  If you're options are attack twice for 4 AP or move two spaces and then attack for 4 AP then if you are directly in front of you target you can hit them twice on their front facing or step to their side facing and hit them once.  If you are a high Active character then the maneuvering isn't really in idiom anyway whereas if you are a high Action, but low Active character then it makes sense for you to run around behind your opponent and hit them once.  It would probably have to be play tested to see if it keeps things balanced.

Facing.  I would consider having an option to spend 1 AP (or just Movement if you stick with it) to change facing.  That should work pretty well...

General skills would be fine as long as you note that they can only do things that make sense and that do not fall under some other skill.  Basically, if a skill already does that, you can't use a general skill for it.

Thomas