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Okay, this is a pretty preliminary post, but we're wrapping up an OTE campaign and I want to finally run some serious sorcerer. I'll be posting humanity ideas, etc. here soon enough.

For now, though, some questions and comments.

Questions:
If a demon has "special damage (lethal)" defined as claws and fangs, does it fatigue them to use them, as found in the combat rules on using powers?

What did folks think of the movie Underworld as it applies to sorcerer?

Comments:
This is my third total re-read of the game, and my most careful. I highlighted and took notes this time, developing ideas as I went. I got a lot out of it, and I'm forced to say that no other game has so much rich conflict built into the very mechanics that I can think of. It's an amazing game, and I really hope to do it justice when we play here.

I will post shortly about my plans for the campaign, as well as some pretty drastic experiments I have in mind for possessor/parasite demons (which has me furious that I left my copy of Soul in another state...).

Jake

Hi Jake,

Thanks for the kind words, and here are the answers:

QuoteIf a demon has "special damage (lethal)" defined as claws and fangs, does it fatigue them to use them, as found in the combat rules on using powers?

Yup. A very important rule, especially if one is considering Charnel-Gods-like mondo demon weapons. Like a couple of the other abilities, Special Damage looks better than it is.

QuoteWhat did folks think of the movie Underworld as it applies to sorcerer?

Dunno, didn't see it yet. My most recent Sorcerer-esque film was Onibaba (Japanese). Anyone else?

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Jake NorwoodWhat did folks think of the movie Underworld as it applies to sorcerer?

It's hard for me to put it in perspective, I was somewhat dissapointed in the whole thing, but I'd be curious to hear your take on it from a Sorcerer perspective. Although, part of why I think it failed for me as a film is part of why I have trouble seeing any Sorcerer in it. I don't remember any sort of consequence; I have a hard time figuring the premise.

-Tim

Hello,

Just as a comparison (and Jake, let us know if you don't want discussion of further movies to gum up your prep-thread), I consider The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen to have been among the most Premise-less exercises in celluloid I have ever seen. It's especially notable for its extensive stylistic faithfulness and effort relative to the "core" absence."

Best,
Ron

Hi.

Okay, so, on the claws-and-fangs bit...

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that the demon has limited use of his own natural limbs, as opposed to some kind of "special" power. Now what if all I wanted was claws and fangs that do edged damage, but not "lethal," then how does that work? Do I need to buy that?

I had more questions, but now I'm paying for having not written them down when I thought of them. Grr.

Re: Underworld

It comes up for 2 reasons: 1) seeing it made my players want to try sorcerer (I'm trying to figure why exactly) and 2) I've long felt that both vampires and werewolves would be best handled mechanically via sorcerer (best as compared to other games, including one's I've written up in passing). I have some fun almost mini-supplement level ideas and notes in a scratchbook somewhere.

The idea of sorcerer-esque premise lacking in Underworld is a good point. The powers are there, but I'm not sure that the premise was. I think that it was a helluva lot better than LXG, though, on multiple levels (except a few of the actors, which were sorely sub-par). But that's less important than the possible implicaitons the movie is going to have on the way my group plays out.

I'll do my best to remember those questions. I went back and re-read Sword in it's entirety yesterday. Gah, so much I want to play!

Jake

Hello,

Quotehave a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that the demon has limited use of his own natural limbs, as opposed to some kind of "special" power. Now what if all I wanted was claws and fangs that do edged damage, but not "lethal," then how does that work? Do I need to buy that?

"Natural limbs?" This is a demon. There is no "natural."

Demons may attack using the Fists colum without buying an ability. I suggest that you use that, and just let the claws & fangs be special effects. That works fine for most applications; full victories are applied for temporary damage, which is extremely effective in play.

I suggest that characters also have the Special Damage ability (and even the non-lethal option is plenty lethal at higher Power) and use it in a timed and tactical fashion during fights. The effect is, I submit, exactly the kind that you are looking for.

Best,
Ron

Howdy Jake,

Quote
It comes up for 2 reasons: 1) seeing it made my players want to try sorcerer (I'm trying to figure why exactly) and 2) I've long felt that both vampires and werewolves would be best handled mechanically via sorcerer (best as compared to other games, including one's I've written up in passing). I have some fun almost mini-supplement level ideas and notes in a scratchbook somewhere.

Have you looked at Urge? It's a mini-supp that deals with a werewolfish take on sorcerer, beast within and all that. While I haven't grabbed it myself it keeps tugging at me for when I have some time on my hands to look it over.

Quote
The idea of sorcerer-esque premise lacking in Underworld is a good point. The powers are there, but I'm not sure that the premise was. I think that it was a helluva lot better than LXG, though, on multiple levels (except a few of the actors, which were sorely sub-par). But that's less important than the possible implicaitons the movie is going to have on the way my group plays out.

I'd be really curious to hear what sparked Sorcerer in UW for your players. If you get any answers on this, or if aspects come out in play I'd love to hear about it.

-Tim

Wow, how did I end up in the Adept Press forum?

Oh, well...  best make a side note and get out. ;)

I just watched Underworld last night and I found it rather full 'o theme.

Selene is a soldier in war, that she fights to avenge the death of her family at the hands of 'evil'.  Then an innocent (Michael), saves her life and is all of the sudden declared one of the enemy through no action of his own.  So she starts her digging into the past, which is forbidden - a dead give away someone is lying about something.  Come to find out, her benefactor and father-figure is just a religious zealot not a holy warrior, and was in fact responsible for the evil deeds that motivate her through the war.

There is also some stuff about family loyalty versus lust for power.  Like Lucian and being Kraven cousins, Viktor killing his own daughter out of fear of weakening his power base and then going and doing it again with Selene.

It's also speckled with some racism and slavery stuff.

Over all is seems, to me, to be about the lust for power and what it drives men to do.

Yup, got Urge. Read it twice.

Thanks, Ron.

What sparked Sorcerer in UW? The idea of werewolves and vampires as parasite/possessors. Kind cool, actually, with the demons being blood-born parasite/possessors and able to spawn possessors via biting. Then you have the Corvinus line who (as sorcerers) can bind both types into themselves, becoming outwardly hybrids. Again, I'm not sure that it's sorcerer premise-wise, but sorcerer mechanics could account for much of what goes on in the movie.

Jake

Hey again,

Quote from: crucielOver all is seems, to me, to be about the lust for power and what it drives men to do.

To be honest it sounds like a much better movie the way you say it. It never had any real weight for me though.

Quote from: Jake NorwoodThe idea of werewolves and vampires as parasite/possessors. Kind cool, actually, with the demons being blood-born parasite/possessors and able to spawn possessors via biting. Then you have the Corvinus line who (as sorcerers) can bind both types into themselves, becoming outwardly hybrids. Again, I'm not sure that it's sorcerer premise-wise, but sorcerer mechanics could account for much of what goes on in the movie.

Oh that's neat, I can I get behind that. I mean as much as Sorcerer is about premise, I like the kewl powerz. :)

-Tim

Quote from: Tim AlexanderTo be honest it sounds like a much better movie the way you say it. It never had any real weight for me though.

Probably because I'm not trying to convince you it's a love story (as it was billed).  It is still an action movie though, so it tends toward the killing and away from the talking.

Okay, shifting gears now, but still in prep-mode.

We wrapped up our OTE game with great success last night, and everyone was sorry to see it end. It was like Seinfeld--we quite while we were ahead.

Tomorrow we'll prep characters and possibly run an intro session, most likely based on the haunted house scenario from the core rulebook.

In a prep discussion last night I brought up the issue of "what are demons," and tried to get a handle on defining humanity for this campaign. I find that these things are suprisingly hard to do for inexperienced sorcerer players.

For demons a few phrases came out that I latched on to. The first is "Wolf in Sheep's clothing." They want to stay away from judeo-christian 9th-gate style demons, but there is clearly a thrust for demons to appear enticing. One player then whipped out his copy of Warcraft III to show me a demon from one of the cut scenes. "I want them to look like *this* when manifested in their "true" form." So now I have an aesthetic, and to some degree I've got a theme. Wolves in Sheeps clothing. I'll have to work that into the Yzor/haunted house bit.

When I brought up defining humanity we hit a brick wall, though. I don't think that this group would be comfortable with "Transgression" (a theme I'm dying to play under...call it repression or something), so I'm leaning towards a game based on corruption and doing evil for reasons that appear good (wolves in sheeps clothing).

I know it's worthless to say "give me a definition for humanity in my game, guys," to you all, but I kind-of am. Or, more reasonably, I'm asking for various definitions of humanity that you all have used in-play, and what those definitions have caused in-play. Yeah, that's it.

The characters are yet undeveloped, but if I have something to run on I can help guide the characters in creation towards something fruitful. Your suggestions and experiences are greatly appreciated.

Jake

Hi Jake,

What a time to be without The Sorcerer's Soul. All of your concerns are discussed in there, in detail ...

Anyway, Humanity is central. Without it, all you have are super-heroes who get to be scary and mean. And with a "spiral" version of it (i.e. low Humanity dictates Humanity-decreasing behavior), you merely have an excuse to be jerks even further.

To crib from the supplement, here's what a solid concept for Humanity does:

1. Provides a baseline aesthetic from which to conceive sorcerous rituals, as well as bonus dice for same.

2. Provides a set of standards for perceiving Humanity loss, whether suggested by GM or players as it occurs.

3. Refines demons' Desires and Needs - appropriate ranges for topics and details.

4. Provides a set of options for consequences at Humanity 0.

5. Provides parameters for preparing Bangs - what sorts of decisions they might entail.

I strongly recommend that you simply impose a set of standards for Humanity going up or down upon yourself, and apply them in play as frequently as you can.

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Jake NorwoodWhen I brought up defining humanity we hit a brick wall, though. I don't think that this group would be comfortable with "Transgression" (a theme I'm dying to play under...call it repression or something), so I'm leaning towards a game based on corruption and doing evil for reasons that appear good (wolves in sheeps clothing).

I'm not sure I'm reading you, but wouldn't Humanity be Truth, then? And then put the characters in some situation where they always seem to do good, but may not be really. Spies comes to mind and other recent game suggestions here.

A more literal interpretation of "wolves in sheep's clothing" would go with the shapeshifting ideas discussed recently. :-)

More complexely you could say that Humanity was Altruism with characters who were about doing good deeds. Supers, perhaps. Are they doing things for the good of others, or are they succcumbing to the idea that they can help others while helping themselves? At zero Humanity, of course, they become Supervillains.

Float some of those ideas to your people and see what sticks.

Mike

Progress...

The setting is going to be modern-day Massachussets, in old puritan witch-burning country. Lots of old new-england families and their mansions, and the headless horseman really is bound to someone somewhere even now. All the characters are descended (whether they know it or not) from old witch lines. I'm planning on borrowing a lot of imagry from Tim Burton's Sleepy Hollow. The "wolf in sheep's clothing" theme has been agreed on by everyone, thought that still leaves a lot of room.

Adn we have characters now, in preparation for Friday's game.

Ariel- An agressive player who likes to know how far her character can jump. Her character is loosely based off of the Willem Dafoe character in Boondock Saints, but only as a starting point. She is a criminal forensics cop, who's telltale is a white horse (like the chalk one in England) on her shoulderblade.

Stamina 2 (Scrapper)
Will 5 (zest for life, vengeful)
Lore 3 (coven member)
Cover 5 Criminal forensics investigator type chick
Price (disdain for idiots, -1 when interacting with anyone she thinks is stupid)
Humanity 5

Kicker: A sting of murders has been linked to her via cryptic calling cards with unsure meaning (she was very excited to write this down).

Her demon is a 2" tall imp with lots and lots of defensive powers (vitality, armor, etc). Desire: Creation/Artistry, Need: to sing very loudly.

Joe - a passive player that seems to really like magic in games, especially "Jedi Mind Trick" stuff. His character is a mad adept that has broken sorcerous tradition by taking things into the electronic world. His madness has resulted in a sort of extreme computer-geekiness. He's the least developed of the characters so far, but his player uncharacteristically enthusiastic at this point.

Stamina 2 (Specialized Training, yet undefined)
Will 3 (Social Competence (this is going to ve a fun, if difficult mix with his madness))
Lore 5 (mad)
Cover 3 (ATM/bank software programmer)
Price (bookish/secluded, -2 to first roll in a scene)
Humanity 3
Telltale: Full body tatoos of symbols and code
Kicker: unwritten

Joe's demon is an inconspicuous demon that lives primarily as code. It can copy itself into a computer (spawning), and can travel via the internet. Joe carries it with him on a disk or on a laptop. Telltale? a set of binary code with a "2" in the middle of it somewhere. Very, very powerful (11!!!). Desire: Knowledge. Need: (undecided...internet porn is a possible choice)

Earta - an alternately passive, aggressive, and passive-agressive player. She likes plot complications, and will introduce them on her own whenever possible. Her character is a bookish 50-yr-old antique dealer with a power 2 inconspicuous demon that ferrets out good antiques.

Stamina 2 (natural vigor)
Will 4 (user/manipulative, zest for life)
Lore 4 (Solitary adept)
Cover 4 (antique dealer)
Price: Poor bargainer (-1 when bargaining prices of goods, etc.)
Humanity 4
Telltale: always wears as creepy ancient hairpin from the old witching days.
Kicker: She has come to learn that a particular item she's been looking for for a powerful client has turned up...and is an extremely powerful object demon in the possession of a powerful sorcerer.

She plans on summoning as many little 1-3 power demons as she can, realizing fully that this is going to be difficult and stir things up a bit. She's looking for trouble.




Now, for humanity. I'm still thinking this one over, but I like the idea of truth. I also think that forgiveness/mercy could play nicely into the Salem-witch trial aftermath setting, and would be very easy to track and play. This would make the demons all quite vengeful, I believe, which has definite benefits as far as driving the story goes. Likewise, since 2 of my 3 players are women, vengence in-play is likely to be of the worst sort. There could be some pre-emptive count of monte cristo stuff happening here...

OTOH, how would "truth" as humanity work in play? Does lying cause humanity checks? Does Telling the truth in hard situations mean humanity gain rolls? Are the demons all horrific con artists in addition to simply being unnatural, all with hidden agendas and unkown forms, maybe even lying about desires or needs? Thoughts?

Jake

ps. In further praise for sorcerer, one of the players was a sceptic as we started character creation, but now seems gung-ho at the chance to play the game. I am really, really looking forward to this.