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Hey all,

So the huge Nordic roleplaying convention, called "Nodal Point" in various Scandinavian languages, decided to publish a book on RPG theory for this year's convention in Helsinki, Finland.  I don't know about any of you, but I'm dying to get a copy of this book, which was printed in English.  The description from their website is included below:

Quote from: Solmukohta's webpageRopecon will publish a book for Solmukohta 2004 in order to to create and preserve intellectual discussion on role-playing. The book, Beyond Role and Play, is edited by Markus Montola and Jaakko Stenros, and it features authors from Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, USA, Singapore and Japan. The foreword of the book has been written by professor Frans Mäyrä from the University of Tampere.

The book contains 28 articles and essays on role-playing, studying the interactive arts from various angles. The 320 pages have been divided into four sections. Theory holds academic papers, Practice contains methodological guides, Games reviews three recent influential Nordic larps and Openings provides visions, opinions and new avenues of role-playing studies. In addition there are three contextualising texts in the book delving into the social and historical roots of role-playing. The emphasis of the book is on larping, but the articles and ideas are applicable to tabletop role-playing as well.

I emailed the people in charge of the book and they said it would be about $12 plus shipping, but that it would be cheaper if we could order a bunch of copies and split the shipping.  So here I am to ask if anyone else wants a copy, so we can do just that.

For those who don't know, the Nordic roleplaying scene is WAY different from that in the US and UK.  Very LARP-centered and pretty far removed from the Microsoft-like reach of d20.  Also, pretty strongly grounded in theory, from what I can tell, and what we might consider experimental and avante garde roleplaying.

In any case, you can find out more about the book and the convention at their website:  http://www.ropecon.fi/solmukohta/

The book was pointed out to me by several people responding to my theory column over at RPGnet.

Quote from: Jonathan WaltonSo the huge Nordic roleplaying convention, called "Nodal Point" in various Scandinavian languages, decided to publish a book on RPG theory for this year's convention in Helsinki, Finland.  I don't know about any of you, but I'm dying to get a copy of this book, which was printed in English.  

Just as an added note -- you can get a similar book which was produced for Knudepunkt 2003 in PDF format over the web.  
http://www.laivforum.dk/kp03_book/
http://www.laivforum.dk/kp03_book/kp_book/kp03_book.zip  (16MB download)

The Solmukohta 2004 book should definitely be better, or so I hear, and build on the ideas presented in Knudepunkt.

EDIT: I belatedly realized from the first URL that "Knudepunkt" and "Solmukohta" are the same thing -- presumably in different languages.

I'll jump in on that for two copies. Let me know how to arrange payment and whatnot, Jonathan.

Sounds like a worthy investment. Count me in for one, and let me know what you need.

Ditto.

Best,
Ron

I'm in.  $12 + shipping sounds reasonable to me.

Random thought:  Would selling these from the Forge booth at GenCon make any sense at all, and if so, would the Nodal Point people be interested in opening a dialogue about it?

Quote from: LxndrRandom thought:  Would selling these from the Forge booth at GenCon make any sense at all, and if so, would the Nodal Point people be interested in opening a dialogue about it?

No idea.  I can ask them when they get back to me, though.  Still, it might be better to actually read the book first, before we offer to promote it.

Here's the order list I've got:
- Me (1)
- Chris (1) - from a PM
- Clinton (2)
- Rob (1)
- Ron (1)
- Lxndr (1)

That looks like 7 so far.  John, I can't tell from your post whether you want one or not.  Thanks for the link to last year's book, though.  Once I get ready to place the order, I'll email/PM you guys with info on how to get money to me, and to get your mailing addresses.

If I'm not too late, count me in and let me know how to pay.

Chris

Since I'm trying to come up with some sort of a review for the book before the deadline next wednesday, and having actually read it, I might as well comment on this. Might help me get my thoughts together. Putting it all together in a very short time (it was published last tuesday, were I got my press copy) is not that easy. Btw, yes, Knutpunkt, Knudepunkt, Knutepunkt and Solmukohta are the same thing (they all mean Nodal Point in english). The event tours the nordic countries and is always named in the language of the hosting country.

What's the book about?

The book is about 300 pages in a smallish font and it has 28 articles by 26 different people from eight different countries, so it's safe to say it has "all kinds of stuff".  There's theory, history, articles on some interesting larps (which unfortunately pretty much prove that you'd have to had been there to understand), some attempts to create tools and some quite interesting propaganda. Basicly I found the subjects to fall into two categories.

What is roleplaying: where is it coming from, how's it done, what is it, what can be done with it, where is it going, how does it relate to the older art forms. Many parts of this relates to "is it or should it be about narration".

Writing LARPS: how it should be done, what can be done, some ways to do it, some examples on what has been done. A lot of the more manifesto-style and practice-oriented text relates to this subject.
[/list:u]

What's the book like?

As Ron Edwards might put it, a lot of it is "theory heartbreakers", IMO. Almost every article has some worthwhile notions or ideas, but many of them cover it well. The need to create science has in many cases only blurred the actual issue, and sadly most of the "facts" would not hold up to a critical review. Also in many cases the writers need to bring out his or her own opinion is just damaging, and most of the writers fail to recognize their own biases, which are mostly pretty obvious. (Propably in some cases this is a conscious decision.) In other words, credibility is often lost. It's also obvious that many of the writers have a very limited understanding of table-top gaming, which limits their ability to understand roleplaying in general.

There's also the "manifesto heartbreakers"; articles about something which the writer declares to be good or bad, mostly presented in overly complicated ways. The book is a very good showcase about how you should either try to prove something, or try to state your opinion. Trying to do both things at the same time rarely ends well.

Now, on the other hand, the above could propably be said about every "serious" article ever written about roleplaying. This book is by no means worse, and the many attempts to apply science to roleplaying discussion are in my opinion highly welcome and should be much appreciated. These people have not had much to work with except their own personal experiences, and with that in mind, they have managed to come up with some very good stuff. In the publication event one of the editors stated that the book tries to create something to build on for future studies. The first steps are always the most difficult. This book is very possibly the best book about roleplaying yet.

There's a lot of good stuff. There are many interesting points in the book, some of which do have good presentation to back them up. Some of the techniques and terminology seem potentially useful, even if most of it is larp-oriented. It's obvious the book has a lot of thought and a lot of roleplaying experience behind it, and some of the views presented are in any case very interesting and thought-provoking. Reading this book has certainly added to and cleared up a lot of what I personally think about roleplaying. It's not perfect, and not even as good as such a book could be, but it's still good. At least now we have something to build on.

Should I by this book?

Well, that depends. Do you have a serious interest in roleplaying? If you do, you should definitely own it, for future reference if nothing else. Even if you are just a hobbyist, this book will propably give you something interesting to think about. If you aim to take part in theoretical roleplaying discussion in the next few years, this book will certainly do you good. If you are interested in the Nordic LARP-scene, this book is a must.

QuoteFor those who don't know, the Nordic roleplaying scene is WAY different from that in the US and UK. Very LARP-centered and pretty far removed from the Microsoft-like reach of d20. Also, pretty strongly grounded in theory, from what I can tell, and what we might consider experimental and avante garde roleplaying.

That's very much a half-truth, even an illusion. First of all, d20 rules here  too (at least in Finland). The most popular games afaik are the sorts of D&D, Rolemaster and GURPS, and of course the White Wolf lines. On the other hand, larping has had a lot effect on table-top here, especially by making deep character immersion to be pretty much a definition for "good roleplaying". The most notable thing about the "Nordic style" is that here, immersion is the king... actually, it's the emperor. It's The Thing about roleplaying. Not everyone is into it, but those people are mostly being humble about it, and readily state that "they have not done a lot of serious roleplaying". Here, it's very common to take larping seriously as an art form. Larping has already made it to the culture pages of the biggest newspapers on some occasions, and my guess is it will become more commonplace in the future.

As to the "grounded in theory" -part, that's to some extent just an illusion. There is a lot of theory, but most of it has never been really tried in practise, afaik not always even by the theorists themselves and in any case not in a significant scale. There have been a few notable (well, noted by the theorists anyway) theory-oriented larps, but it's really just a small part of the big picture. The theory-oriented part of the Nordic Larp-scene is the most vocal and media-visible part of the whole roleplaying scene, but it's still a minority. It does seem like the theorists are getting more attention and that applying the theories might be getting more interest in the future. And yes, they rule a lot of the discussion, so in that sense, what you said about the Nordic scene is true.

Thanks for the clarifications, Risto.  I think any kind of book that freely accepts submissions (even if they get selected and edited afterwards) is bound to be a mixed bag.  Still, I'm approaching this from several angels:

1. I don't know enough about LARPing and LARP theory.  There's not a lot of it discussed on the Forge, unfortunately, and I don't have enough experience to seek out good places to discuss LARP.

2. I don't know enough about the "Nordic scene," as you say, but it interests me greatly.  Working with Eero Tuovinen on brainstorming for "Humble Mythologies," working with Antti Karjalainen on illustrating "Argonauts," reading Juhana Pettersson and Mike Pohjola's columns at RPGnet... it's clear that you guys have some great stuff going on.

3. Sometimes, it's interesting to know not just what the considered opinion of the "expert" is, but what the average player or GM or game designer on the street feels about roleplaying.  For instance, I think the Turku Manifesto represents a style of play that I would never encourage or support, but it's really cool that someone had that opinion and wrote it up, all the same.

4. In the American and UK scenes, there aren't yet publications that deal completely with roleplaying theory, though they may not be too far off.  There are online communities like the Forge, there are the articles that occasionally get published in books like Grey Ghost's "Gamemastering Secrets" and Robin's Laws "Laws of Gamemastering," there are things like "Daedalus" which do games and theory together, but mostly those type of articles don't get widespread attention (or really, any attention).

In any case, that's why I'm excited about the book.

Quote from: Jonathan WaltonIn the American and UK scenes, there aren't yet publications that deal completely with roleplaying theory, though they may not be too far off.  There are online communities like the Forge, there are the articles that occasionally get published in books like Grey Ghost's "Gamemastering Secrets" and Robin's Laws "Laws of Gamemastering," there are things like "Daedalus" which do games and theory together, but mostly those type of articles don't get widespread attention (or really, any attention).  

Well, they are very few, but I wouldn't say none.  I would count Robin's Laws of Gamemastering as a theory book -- under "applied theory", at least.  On the more academic side, there is Daniel Mackay's "The Fantasy Role-Playing Game: A New Performing Art".  Before that there was Gary Alan Fine's book.  However, Mackay is pretty dry and not very well-informed, in my opinion.  I have a (very) short bibliography at http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/whatis/bibliography.html

But such books are definitely few and far between.  

I should mention that I have my own contribution to the Solmukohta 2004 book.  I submitted in an essay entitled "Immersive Story: A View of Role-played Drama", which was accepted.  I heard about it because Petter Bøckman wrote an adaptation of my Threefold Model FAQ (with permission, of course) which was included in the 2003 book.  I haven't seen the rest of the 2004 book, though, and I eagerly await my copy.   (I'm being sent a copy for contributing, so I won't need to order.  I may well want more copies, but I want to read it first.)

Slightly off topic, but since it's being discussed here...:

There's no such thing as a "Nordic scene". There's a great difference between Finnish immersionist-theory LARPers, the Danish scenario-writing culture (R'Lyeh Project and Fastaval), the new developments in the tiny Norwegian game designer subculture (three new games cover the themes of Norwegian folklore, romance, and 1920's dreamy surrealism), and highly commercial Swedish RPG design based on the GW business model.

There's also a certain split between the vocal minority and the gaming majority (at least in Norway). While Vampire, D20 and GURPS are the biggest sellers, game designers and theorists are going towards rules-light systems, focusing on "method" rather than "mechanism". Many gamers, meanwhile, strongly defend their right to play the "traditional" way, and see new developments as threatening their style of play.

While I understand it's impossible to know everything about the most obscure gaming subcultures, I think it's wise not to assume that a few million people (who can't even understand each others languages) all follow the ideas of four or five vocal and profiled gaming theorists.

Quote from: Itse

QuoteFor those who don't know, the Nordic roleplaying scene is WAY different from that in the US and UK. Very LARP-centered and pretty far removed from the Microsoft-like reach of d20. Also, pretty strongly grounded in theory, from what I can tell, and what we might consider experimental and avante garde roleplaying.

That's very much a half-truth, even an illusion. First of all, d20 rules here  too (at least in Finland). The most popular games afaik are the sorts of D&D, Rolemaster and GURPS, and of course the White Wolf lines. On the other hand, larping has had a lot effect on table-top here, especially by making deep character immersion to be pretty much a definition for "good roleplaying". The most notable thing about the "Nordic style" is that here, immersion is the king... actually, it's the emperor. It's The Thing about roleplaying.

I cant speak for the rest of the nordic countries, but for Norway atleast speaking about a single RP scene, encompassing both tabletop RPG and live action RPg, is misleading. There is crossover, and many will have tried both types of play, but most identifies with one of the two. Traditionally there have been some animosity between the two scenes, but thats not really relevant.
In the (tabletop) RPG community incoherent sim/gam D&D and WoD is the King. Many classify their style as storytelling simply because they play Vampire, and describe blood-drinking in detail. Of course there are more avant-garde bent individuals, and surprisingly they tend to be more vocal. This sounds pretty much like the Anglo-American scene to me.

Regarding the book, its probably a very good book if your into LARP. If the 2003 book is anything to go by you`ll probably be disappointed if your looking for something thats applicable to traditional roleplaying. The theories, advice and opinions already presented on the Forge and elsewhere are better in that respect, and more refined. For non-larp roleplayers the book might be an interesting reference as it provides an outlook on a related activity.

Ole wrote:

Quote
I cant speak for the rest of the nordic countries, but for Norway atleast speaking about a single RP scene, encompassing both tabletop RPG and live action RPg, is misleading. There is crossover, and many will have tried both types of play, but most identifies with one of the two. Traditionally there have been some animosity between the two scenes, but thats not really relevant.

In the (tabletop) RPG community incoherent sim/gam D&D and WoD is the King. Many classify their style as storytelling simply because they play Vampire, and describe blood-drinking in detail. Of course there are more avant-garde bent individuals, and surprisingly they tend to be more vocal. This sounds pretty much like the Anglo-American scene to me.  

Admitted, I pretty much talked on a "or so I've heard" basis. The table-top "scene" seems to be pretty similar to that in Finland, which I would guess is pretty much the same everywhere. The thing is, at least here in Finland there has been the definite feeling that "true roleplaying" is more and more used to mean "character immersion", even by those people who don't really do it themselves. They may joke about it, but they still admit that that's what it means. "We just play for fun, we don't take it that seriously" to me is a pretty clear hint that they admit that view as the dominating one. I see that pretty much as a larping influence.

But yes, talking about "one scene" can be said to be overly simplified. Even in Finland there are obvious differences in style.

Quote from: ItseBut yes, talking about "one scene" can be said to be overly simplified. Even in Finland there are obvious differences in style.

It is possible that other places on this earth also has some kind of "scene" applied to them (or another general term), in the sense; this is how roleplaying fares in this region.

We have to be very careful when applying such collective terms to the fragmented state of roleplaying. The roleplaying-forms of tabletop, larp, webRPG and erpg (and their subforms) often fares in widely different ways within the same region.

The "Nordic scene" as I see it, is as fragmented (or more) as any other national or regional "scene". I'll try to explain this with a very rough sketch of what I perseive to be some elements of the so called "Nordic scene":

It consist of Norway, Finland, Sweden and Denmark (The Republic of Island is arrogantly overlooked in this post).
---> For one; they do not share the same language (the Finns talk jibberish, the danes got a throath-condition, and the swedes got selective understanding).
---> Secondly: those of them understanding eachother (the swedes, danes and norsemen presumably do so), still do not want to roleplay in eachothers languages.
---> Thirdly: they have different history relating to roleplaying games, and history is a fundament for their gaming-habits (important point this is, especially in the context of what is and what is not possible within the "hobby").

Thats one level of fragmentation of the "Nordic scene". But even if our language was the same, we would be badly placed in any "scene" including us all, due to the different RPG-forms and their differing development.

On the various forms within each of the countries in the "Nordic scene", I will restrict my commentaries to tabletop and larp, the two forms of RPG i know best in this region.

In Finland larp has a strong standing, being both well thought of and well developed, but most roleplayers play tabletop, based solely on imported games.

In Sweden tabletop has a strong standing, and are very nicely organiced, with a nice mix of swedish games, and one of their own as the most played RPG ("Drakar och Demonar"; 6th edition published this winter). A nice host of players are into larp also, but the larp scene is mostly focussed on traditional fantasy, even though the development in Norway and Finland has had some influence.

In Denmark freeform tabletop is very popular, but larp is practised as stroungly bound as anywhere.

In Norway the larp-community is small, but has developed much throughout the last decade, so it is a farly strong community. The Norwegian tabletop community is much larger, more traditional and much weaker, mostly based on imported games.

If you fit the situation of various computer-based RPGs into the picture of these countries, you will have not one scene, but a multitude of "Nordic" scenes (most of them only applying to parts of one country). You may talk of the "Nordic larp scene" in some respects, but in other respects it will be quite absurd to do so.

In my view, there is no such thing as a general "Nordic scene" applying to roleplaying games. I seriously doubt the existence of anything like it in any region of the world. Roleplaying games are roleplaying games in a lot of ways, and so are roleplayers.