The Forge Archives

Hi folks,

We tend to go through a cycle here at the Forge.  New folks come in, and there tends to be a little rustling as folks get adjusted to the style of discussion here.  Inspired by Streamlining the Creative Process and How many skills do you prefer?, I decided to write a little something hopefully useful to new folks.

1.  What is your game about?

This is often the very first question asked of everybody with a design, because no one can tell you what would work well, if they don't know what you're aiming for.  This question is often misinterpreted, and one reason we have so much terminology here at the Forge is in specifying what we mean.

Let me give you an example: "My game is about fighting monsters!"

Ok, but does that mean play is about:
-Who can kill the most, and toughest monsters?
-What would it be like to live in a world where one fights monsters?
-What is a monster anyway?  Who are you to decide that they need to die?

There's even more ways to play this, but simply put, the first answer, "Fighting monsters" gives people NOT MUCH to really work with.  That's why questions about, "Should I use X mechanic or Y? What color should my elves be?" etc, can't really be answered until we know more about what folks are trying to do.

2.  "Just because" isn't a good enough answer

Almost everyone's ideas get challenged here.  This isn't a personal attack on you as an individual or your competency, but rather a challenge to open some doors and really think about the "why" behind any mechanic.  Doing something "just because" another game has done it, without really looking at if the mechanic fits, or does what you want, is not a good enough answer.  

If you're doing a game about teenage romance, and there is no real violence in the game, why would you have extensive rules on combat, or weapons?  Again, "just because" isn't good enough.

By no means does this mean every design need involve "avant garde" ideas, if you understand what hit points and levels mean, and what they do, and they work good for your game goals, then that is the best choice. But you need to know what you are trying to do, and how a mechanic can do that.

3. Play lots of games

You'll also find that people will recommend a lot of weird games to play.  It may sound like fanboy-ism, because you'll keep hearing the same games mentioned again and again.  But realize often that the games are mentioned because they do things in a very different manner, and can serve as examples, or benchmarks, of some of the options available to you for design.

4.  You don't need to use the terminology, but you do need to communicate

More trouble comes from folks either trying to use the terminology without really taking time to understand it, or else arguing about it instead of simply trying to design their games.  The terminology exists for a reason, that being most people lacked the ability to communicate specific ideas of "what their game was about" using words like "fun", "story", "realistic", "balanced", etc.  

It's rather like someone giving you a complex task and the instructions, "Just do it right" and leaving it at that.   Understand that a lot of words have many meanings, and lots of time gets lost in trying to clarify and restate one's ideas, so try to be as clear and concrete as possible.

5.  Meeting halfway...

Everyone in the world can try their best to help you, but no one can MAKE anyone understand anything(otherwise we'd live in a far better, or far worse world).  Here at the Forge, folks try their best to communicate in as clear a manner as possible, and also to try their best to understand you.  If you aren't willing to fully read posts, and perhaps take some time to digest or think about it, communication isn't going to work.  When one or more parties have stopped listening, dialogue is over.

Hopefully some folks will find this useful,

Chris

Chris,

I like that post a lot.  I think I'd want to reformulate some of these as questions that would be useful to ask instead, as a kind of add-on to what you already covered.

Quote from: Bankuei1.  What is your game about?

Here, a useful question instead would be, "What do you see the players and characters doing mostly?"

Quote2.  "Just because" isn't a good enough answer

I think this gets forgotten sometimes, because sometimes it seems like everyone here at the Forge wants to do the most seemingly way-out things, the stuff that hasn't been done, and so forth.  But as you say, if stuff like levels and hit points and encumbrance is actually good for what you want, then you should go with it.  "Just because" is silly for both following in traditional, established modes and for breaking them.

So I'd want to ask, "Why have you chosen what you have, given how many options there are out there?"

Quote3. Play lots of games

Here, my questions would be about which games you've tried that are not what you think you prefer.  Have you only tried things with very different settings from what you like?  Have you only tried things with wacky mechanics, but always stick to the same basic genre?  Should you maybe try something that's not seemingly your cup of tea, just to see what you learn from it?  This follows up from point 2: do you know how wide the options are?

Quote4.  You don't need to use the terminology, but you do need to communicate

Amen!  One effect of people not paying attention to this (and I've been guilty, myself) is that people start to equate The Forge to GNS, which starts to make it sound like a Cult of Ron.  Of course, we do all worship him, deeply and abjectly.  :-p  

But the point of the whole GNS thing is that it's useful for some things.  If you don't find it so, why bother?  There's lots of other cool stuff here.

Quote5.  Meeting halfway...

This one I leave to Ron.  It's an essential point, but he's the best at expressing how the halfway-meeting thing should really work at the Forge.

One more question I'd ask, though:

6. Why are you designing or retooling your game?

Nobody starts from nothing at the Forge.  I mean, I find it hard to imagine someone just reading the Forge for a year or something, without ever playing or having played an RPG, and deciding, "Hey, that sounds like fun, I think I'll do that."  So you're almost by definition making changes.  Why?  What's wrong with what you've got?  The better you can pinpoint this, the better you can express what it is you want your new game to do.

Chris Lehrich

I also find that there's a lot of rustling to the tune of directing discussion. Another question that's useful to ask yourself, and state the answer clearly when posting:

"What about my game do I want critique on, specifically?"

Often, people try and answer this question, but they answer something slightly different. This specifically doesn't mean, "what parts of my game do people like or not like?" What it means is, pick a part of your game, state what you want it to do, and ask if others think that it achieves that goal.

This is a bad way of answering this question:
I'm writing a realistic cyberpunk RPG, and I have these character stats: (list of stats). Is there anything I'm missing?

This is a good way of answering this question:
I'm writing a cyberpunk RPG, where I want to highlight the difference between people and technology by working cybertech into the stats. This is how I'm doing this: (insert mechanic and stats here). Do you think that both cyborg and natural character types will be equally attractive to play under this system, and do you think that the difference between them is highlighted effectively?

So is this:
I'm writing a cyberpunk RPG where I want to try and deal realistically with prostheses and, by extension, cyberware. That is, I want the system to model some medical facts, which follow. This is how I plan to do it: (...). Do you see any consequences of this system that are particularly strange, and strike you as unrealistic? How can I fix those issues?

We're always glad to help, but it's impossible to critique helpfully unless you state clearly exactly what you want to accomplish, and laid out all the tools you're using to try and get there. Pieces of systems are just as hard to talk about as games without design goals; unless you present a mechanic with context and clearly stated questions, there's nothing to talk about.

Several things to add to this idea are as follows;

People should be a little more lenient and tolerant.... just becuase you dislike it or it didn't work fr you, (or a hundred others! LOL), doesn't meant htat it won't work for them.  Further, simply basing a point on preference or belief is invalid and unfair, it should be quantitive more than qualitive, otherwise it's less factual and more personal!

People should guide conversations and posts.  Rather than simply flying in and responding with "what the hell", "you don't know" and "don't be stupid" responses is grossly unfair and non-constructive.  Further, it tends to jade, disquiet and upset some people, )me!!!! LOL), and inhibits constructive use of the forum.  Instead, try offering suggestions as to the information you want.  If they have asked, "so what about this" regardign what you see as a broard or general area, then ask them to be more specific, such as "well, more information about XXX and how you get XXX, as well as what XXX does would help us help you!" would be alot more beneficial!

Thinking!  This is important from everyone.  You should plan and consider, not automatically respond!  This often leads to poor converse, atrocious wording and little in the way of conveyance of thought or intent.  By adding a little thought, things might run a bit smoother!

Oh yes. an important idea......  Thread starting.  Please try taking care when labelling the thread.  Further, why not have a introduction as to what you are asking after... instead of a single sentence with a single question, provide an example of what you want, as well as all the relevant details, (yes, guilty as charged! :) )