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So I've got this setting and campaign concept, and I wonder if anyone can think of a system that would admirably suit my goals.  I'd rather not redesign from scratch; if some tinkering is required, that's dandy, but I don't see the point in reinventing the wheel.

This is a fantasy game, but with few non-humans; certainly no PC's, at the start anyway, will be non-humans.  There are four major continents, each with several quite different cultures.  I have huge background notes on all sorts of stuff, but I'll keep this to a minimum.  Let me know if you need more.

Players will have initially one, and then later maybe two PC's.  At the start, there is a single GM (me), but I don't mind sharing once things get rolling later on.  I figure three players plus me, give or take.

Stage One
Background
Millennia ago, there was a wandering tinker who had a vision.  This vision was apparently very elaborate, and he spent the rest of his life going around spreading the word.  The Prophecy is essentially a short book (about the length of the Tao Te Ching, if you know it), in a rather elliptical verse style.  Not a lot is entirely clear in it, but a few things are certain.

First of all, there is this Demon King who lives at the South Pole.  Numerous wars and so forth will be fought over the next thousand-odd years, significantly instigated by the Demon King.  Eventually, there will be three (or four, or whatever – insert number of players here) really important nations that will arise.  These are described in somewhat complex terms.  Each nation will then produce, by some means, a Champion.

Exactly 1500 years after the Great Eclipse (an absolutely known date not long after the Prophet's mission), the Champions will assemble on the south continent's tip (we're in the southern hemisphere, which is more habitable than the northern), and then head off to fight the Demon King.  They will fight, the Demon King's Palace of Ice will be destroyed, and the Demon King himself will die.  The Champions' glorious self-sacrifice will usher in the perpetual Reign of the Sun.

Actual Play
Now everything in the Prophecy has been validated, and over time people have gotten pretty good at interpreting the way the Prophet talks.  In the process, five major Commentaries have been produced, all somewhat longer than the original, and in one case much longer—as in, about the length of the whole Bible.  Each of these Commentaries essentially stands as a kind of founding cultural document for one culture.  One of those cultures is now essentially dead, as was in fact predicted within the prophecy and the culture's Commentary itself, but the other four are going strong.

So as we approach the 1500 year mark, the three nations (everybody's clear on which these are by now) have tournaments and whatnot to find their Champions. These Champions are the PC's.  They are exceedingly tough, dangerous, mighty warriors in their respective spheres.  This is classic High Fantasy stuff: one nation likes Arthurian-style knights in armor on horseback, and their Champion is going to be a Launcelot type, more or less.  Another nation likes samurai-style swordmasters, so their Champion is going to be a Musashi type.  The details are up to the players, who can make of it what they like and I fill in the Commentaries and whatnot to produce the desired effect.  You basically pick your favorite type of seriously dangerous warrior, with no direct overlaps (only one Launcelot, for example), and build an asskicker.  In AD&D terms, these guys are something like twentieth level.  You know, the best of the best, produced by a millennium and more of expertise and training to produce this one person.

Okay, so the first part of the campaign, just a few sessions, gets everyone to the south continent (they all speak Common or whatever, so no problem there), where they meet, become A Party (this is predetermined — they have to get along to some degree, and should ideally be chattering and bantering and generally having a good time), and head off to the Palace of Ice.  Good dungeon-crawling happens, much wild sword-slinging, beer and pretzels for everyone, and in the end they beat the snot out of the Demon King.  The ground begins to rumble, the ice collapses, and they fall, successful, under the ice to a cold but glorious death.

End part one.

Part Two
This is the interesting part, really, although I happen to like butt-kicking beer-and-pretzels fun.

Basically they see a bright light and a haze, and then slowly wake up.  The Champions are lying on slabs in a big stone hall.  There are people they don't recognize around them.  They have a little trouble communicating at first, because these people talk funny.  Pretty soon, to their horror, they discover something unexpected.

The world continued after the Demon King fell, pretty much as usual in lots of ways.  It's been another thousand years.  Nations have risen and fallen, cultures have split and coalesced, and in general the world has changed in lots and lots of ways.  The thing is, this is a totally different kind of world, because the Prophecy is over.  Nothing has absolute guidance any more.

So where's the Reign of the Sun?  What the hell happened?  Well, this depends on the culture.

[*]One culture thinks the Sun is here, now, and that everyone who doesn't see this is simply wrong.
[*]One culture thinks the whole thing was a monstrous mistake, and they worship the Demon King, who they claim never died anyway.  The names of the Champions are now used as swear-words.
[*]One culture thinks the whole Reign of the Sun thing is actually a linguistic error – it just mean eternal lack of the Demon King, and nothing more.
[*]One culture thinks that the Demon King was only the physical manifestation of a larger force of evil, that the business about 1500 years was referring only to the first part of the whole thing, and that history itself will re-cycle on a grander scale, where the Champions are no longer necessary, and therefore this culture should go out and stomp anyone who might be on the wrong side, as indicated by their unwillingness to recognize the obvious truth.[/list:u]And so on.  You know, good, messy, ethnocentric humanity happily beavering away.  The Commentaries are now very important documents for lots of people trying to interpret what happened after the Big Battle, although the Prophecy has receded somewhat in importance.  Some new Commentaries have also been produced, reading the Prophecy in new terms.

Meanwhile, technology has improved.  Clockwork magic has turned out to be a seriously cool thing, and produces lots of nifty machines.  One of the big new powers, which didn't even exist except as a forgotten atoll in the Champions' day, is in fact run entirely by wizards who are expert with clockwork.  These are the guys who found the Champions embedded in ice, in fact, and used magic to bring them back, frozen, to their atoll and revive them.

So what do the Champions do now?  They no longer have a purpose, you see.  Their entire lives were spent focusing on the Big Day and the Quest, and they succeeded.  So what now?  Why would they come back at all?  If it's all destiny and so on, what's their destiny?  What's their purpose?  What meanings do their lives have?

What's At Stake
First of all, I thought this would be a fun way to do Exploration of the game-world.  The High Fantasy part is sufficiently familiar that nobody who's done stuff like AD&D and read genre fantasy is going to have any trouble with it.  When the gang wakes up, they have to explore, because the world is so different, so there's a good bit of consideration of the differences between the High Fantasy world they know and the weird new world they're in.

Second, party unity is not initially going to be a problem, because again it's predetermined and besides, after they wake up, who have they got but themselves?  They know they can rely on each other, they know a lot about each other, and they know they're the only ones who still remember the Old World.

Third, character development in the sense of improvement isn't really an issue here, because these guys are still the baddest dudes around.  Sure, magic throws a wrench into things, but these guys are so tough and powerful that they can pretty much carve through whatever gets in their way if that's appropriate.

Fourth, the very fact that they can carve their way through means that they don't always have to.  I mean, if you run up against some local lord's personal guard, and instead of fighting them your swordmaster just barbers some guy's moustache and hair while he desperately and unsuccessfully tries to kill the swordmaster, you don't really have to continue on and slaughter everyone.  But you can, if you feel like it.

Fifth, these people are so powerful and so lacking in basic knowledge that they become obvious counters in everybody's political games.  If a power furthermore uses these guys' status as the old Champions, this has huge ramifications.  The point being that these guys are automatically the sorts of people around whom history itself changes drastically—but they don't know anything about the history.  So everybody cares about the PC's, whether they themselves like it or not.

Sixth, I thought that the agony of seeking purpose and meaning, where before it had been so simple and clear, would be an exciting thing to grapple with.  I don't know if that leads to some sort of Premise, but I thought that might be something that develops over time, specific to each character.

Please note, incidentally: the two stages aren't secret from the players or anything; they know more or less what you've just been told—all of it.

My Question, Again
What sort of system would work for this?  My copy of TROS is in the mail, and that sounds like a plausible option, but what else might work well?

Are there other things I need to specify before that becomes at all an answerable question?  This game seems to me to rest on the boundaries of Sim and Nar, but I'm not entirely sure about that.

Any suggestions?

Chris Lehrich

I think that's custom made for TROS.  The Spiritual Attributes will be especially interesting.  The Champions will have a collection of SAs geared towards killing the Demon King.  Most of those will be N/A in phase 2, and the rest will apply to people and places that are long dead and gone.  Questing around searching for appropriate SAs to replace them with ought to be worth the price of admission alone.

You won't find any direct support for clockwork magic, however.  TROS magic can be easily adapted to Dark Sun Defiler kind of stuff, or Stygian Sorceries and the like.  But it won't help you much with high fantasy magic.

I'd have thought, given the stupendous relative badassosity of these guys to the ordinary chap in the street, and the way you seem to be envisaging clockwork magic, that Nobilis was what you wanted.

[I feel really bad writing a reply this short].

Failing that, actually, HeroWars. It would probably require less tinkering than Nobilis. Or you could do it with Exalted, I suppose, but you'd be looking at a situation where you'd give each of your players a different castebook and say 'All These Charms Are Yours'.

I'd love to run Refreshing Rain in this setting. Its Color would need retooling, but otherwise it captures some things you seem to emphasize:

[*]The characters have stupendous badassosity.
[*]The characters' relationships with each other and with outsiders have escalating importance.
[*]It's more or less assumed that the characters can solve their problems; the question is how.[/list:u]I'd retool it by using Tarot cards and a chessboard instead of Mah Jongg and Go; I'll post a discussion about de-Asianized Rain in Game Design presently.

Quote from: clehrichWhat sort of system would work for this?  My copy of TROS is in the mail, and that sounds like a plausible option, but what else might work well?

Are there other things I need to specify before that becomes at all an answerable question?  This game seems to me to rest on the boundaries of Sim and Nar, but I'm not entirely sure about that.

Any suggestions?  

Well, if the players are up to the learning curve, I would tend to try the HERO system, personally.  It's great for Part 1, and still good for Part 2.  I suspect that a range of different systems will work, but will of course tinge the results differently.  For example, relationships work differently in HeroQuest and the HERO System.  In the HERO System, you would buy contacts and/or followers.  In HeroQuest you buy new numerical stats for your relationships.  In HQ, combat and oratory are both handled using the same conflict system.  In HERO, "Presence Attacks" have a distinct set of mechanics from physical combat.  Both approaches seem reasonable for the setting, but they will have different flavor.

BESM springs to mind. Seems to me that these guys are larger than life heros, who don't need a lot of character advancement, etc.

Important question. If everything has been taken away from the PCs, their homes, their families, etc, then what's their motivation? It seems to me that they're going to start as blank slates to an extent. Like Ralph says. The question is what are they going to be exposed to that they can grab onto? I mean, how can you ensure that you're going to be able to provide attractive stuff for the players?

In TROS, the players decide, and so you get a handle on what the character is about. Well, in this case, you're eliminating most of that (they might still have faith, or drives to be the "best" or somesuch). As such, how does the GM "replace" these things in terms of giving the players new things to hook onto. I think that you'd run the risk of "replacements". That is, if the PC had "PAssion : Love of Girlfriend", then I think the temptation would be to put more potential love interests in front of the character...

Do you see what I'm getting at? The normal process is to look at the SAs, and then make the NPCs from that. In this case, it would be like, look at the old SAs, and guess what the player is going to be interested in now. Which seems to have all sorts of potential problems.

Anyhow, I think the answer to the problem will tell us a lot about what system is best.

BTW, the whole thing sounds like a Feng Shui scenario, right down to the time shift and the villains. Off to attack the Ice Pagoda. That's right out of canon.


Oh, and if I were a player of this game, I'd want to start with waking up. The build up seems pointless to me if we know what happens. Maybe each player could write their trek as part of their background, but playing it would seem a pantomime.

Mike

Ralph, Drew, Shreyas, John, Loki:

Thanks for the suggestions!  Loki, could you explain a bit why Nobilis?  From what I've heard of it, it seems like an odd choice.

Mike:

QuoteIf everything has been taken away from the PCs, their homes, their families, etc, then what's their motivation? It seems to me that they're going to start as blank slates to an extent.

Yes, well, that's sort of the whole point, Mike.

Look, normal people, as has been noted in another current thread, constantly have to choose among options.  Is money or integrity more important?  Depends.  And so on.  But these Champions have never really had to make choices like this, because it's all sort of predetermined.  Is it more important to train for the Last Battle or do X?  Train.  Period.  No options.  And they are the Champions precisely because they are the sort of people who would dedicate their entire lives to absolutely nothing but this one Battle, knowing they will die, entirely on the basis of an ancient Prophecy.  These are freaks, if you like.

So now they have to learn what the rest of us always had to learn: to make choices, to accept the possibility of error, to bear responsibility.  Because they never had any real responsibility, either: Why did you do X?  Prophecy said so, that's why.  So now they have to become real people, or try to, and also try to figure out what the hell they're going to do with their fantastically focused personalities and frankly incredible ass-kicking abilities.  All of which doesn't make it a lot easier.  So the answer to your question is: "Yes, exactly."

QuoteHow does the GM "replace" these things in terms of giving the players new things to hook onto.

Ideally, he doesn't.  He provides possibilities and lets the PC's find things to get obsessed about.

QuoteOh, and if I were a player of this game, I'd want to start with waking up. The build up seems pointless to me if we know what happens. Maybe each player could write their trek as part of their background, but playing it would seem a pantomime.

I totally disagree.  Did you ever doubt for a minute that Indiana Jones was going to live to tell the tale?  Was it boring to see how it all happened?  Same deal.  The first stage of the game is essentially high fantasy pulp, done in a rather light style.  The sort of thing David Eddings does so badly – fast wiseass crosstalk among the guys while lopping heads.  You know, "Catch, Thror!" <chop> "You're going to have to clean that, you know." <hack> "Clean it?  I don't think these guys have been clean in their lives!" <slash, trip, scream>

To steal from Patrick O'Brian (but take him way out of context): "Methinks these be but dogs, Master Kitano." <swish bang> "Why do you always call your enemies dogs, Sir Launcelot?"  "Ho!  Because they are cur-tailed!" <whack, swish, heads fly> "I walked right into that, didn't I?"  "Thou didst indeed, Master Kitano.  Thou didst indeed."

And so forth.  Ripping good fun for everyone.  The fact that at the end you're going to have a head-to-head with the Big Boss (and incidentally win) doesn't seem to me to have very much to do with it.

Besides, remember how Indie moves and Bond movies and so on always start with a bit of another adventure?  It establishes everything about the kick-ass hero to see him doing what he does, but you know he's going to get away because otherwise what the hell would you do with the rest of the movie?  On top of everything else, how can you do this to the characters?  I mean, they spend their entire lives on this one thing, and they're ultra, ultra-trained for this one purpose, and you're going to hand-wave it?  C'mon!

Chris Lehrich

I agree that the first part is rather important to the entirety of the game. There's a big difference between:

Quote"O.K., you guys went through these years of training, and then you faced this quest, where you got to know each other, and each other's abilities, pretty well, and bonded through your ordeal, and then fell together to what you expected would be your deaths, the best of the best dying as they defeat the worst enemy humanity has ever faced. But now you're waking up again to meet a different world....

and having played through the bonding, the discovery of each other's abilities.

In the coming scenes, part of what's going to happen is that the things that these guys already know about each other are going to come to the fore.
Oh, that guy shouldn't have said that; Shimoro is not going to take that kindly. Should we intervene?
Kor, remember how we dealt with the ice devils? On three, ready?

Quote from: Chris, youThis game seems to me to rest on the boundaries of Sim and Nar, but I'm not entirely sure about that.

I'm not either; but in that case, you'll probably want to go for something easily drifted--particularly, let me point out, since you want what seems like a very gamist feel at the beginning. In fact, I might suggest something like Alyria's Diverse Lunacy for parts of it, but it doesn't really support the "Badassinest" aspect of the concept. You probably need something that can move the focus where the game takes it.

I have a pretty good idea how I would do it in Multiverser (we do what we call contingent worlds quite a bit--the player finds himself in a world he visited before, only now it's much later and things are very different). I've got some idea of how I would do it in terms of a Multiverser interface (that is, if you published the game, how would I convert Multiverser player characters into it to use your game in a Multiverser campaign). I don't know, however, that I'd say Multiverser was the best for this--it would at least require some tweaking. (On the other hand, the bias system might make the transition from the old world to the new world interesting.)

Anyway, I'm persuaded that setting/situation is sufficiently part of system that you can design a system which is inherently drifted by the setting/situation elements, and that Multiverser does that to a significant degree. You want a mild low-risk gamism in the first part (simulationism my eye--your heroes can't die until the climactic moment, and then they can't survive; they aren't going to bury Shimoro's body in the snow and continue on their way). Later you want something that can be shifted into narrativism if the players start latching on to the real issues of their displacement.

It's a cool idea overall that could make a fascinating story, and I'll bet it would play well if you can get the system to drift accordingly.

--M. J. Young

Quote from: M. J. YoungAnyway, I'm persuaded that setting/situation is sufficiently part of system that you can design a system which is inherently drifted by the setting/situation elements, and that Multiverser does that to a significant degree. You want a mild low-risk gamism in the first part (simulationism my eye--your heroes can't die until the climactic moment, and then they can't survive; they aren't going to bury Shimoro's body in the snow and continue on their way). Later you want something that can be shifted into narrativism if the players start latching on to the real issues of their displacement.

Put that way, I see why the first part isn't Sim, but Gamism?  There's no winning and losing, just kicking ass and taking names.  It's deliberately a munchkin fantasy.  Those of you who started playing things like AD&D when you were quite young, remember the idea of having a 20th level character who could wade through orcs?  Ever have one of those discussions of how powerful you needed to be to ensure that even an infinite quantity of orcs could never kill you (unless someone cleverly pointed out that at some point you'd be suffocated by the bodies)?  How about developing parties who could kill Odin?  I'm not actually sure that Stage 1 is really any Creative Agenda: there's nothing created, really, except a certain interpersonal fun value.  I think maybe that's what Mike objected to, in fact, but it sounds like a good time to me if it doesn't go on very long.  Stage 2 I would hope to develop Premise through Exploration, but I leave that to the serious GNS gurus once the game actually runs.

QuoteIt's a cool idea overall that could make a fascinating story, and I'll bet it would play well if you can get the system to drift accordingly.

Thanks, M.J.  Seems like fun to me too.

Chris Lehrich

It was me who suggested Nobilis. I admit, it's a bit of an odd one, but it seemed to cover the 'archetypal agents of civilisation' thing quite well. Admittedly, they'd be without a Manse, initially, I suspect, but they could revive their civilisations. I feel I must point out that I don't actually own Nobilis, so I'm operating on secondhand information, but I can't help but feel that there could be value in the slightly jarring disconnect implied in using rules for demigods for these survivors of a dead age. Which might be nice.

Quote from: clehrichSo now they have to learn what the rest of us always had to learn: to make choices, to accept the possibility of error, to bear responsibility.  Because they never had any real responsibility, either: Why did you do X?  Prophecy said so, that's why.  So now they have to become real people, or try to, and also try to figure out what the hell they're going to do with their fantastically focused personalities and frankly incredible ass-kicking abilities.  All of which doesn't make it a lot easier.  So the answer to your question is: "Yes, exactly."

I asked for consideration in trying to understand my point and I get ridicule. I'll try again.

Obviously that's the idea behind the game. And I never said it isn't interesting, either. I just said it's going to be hard to play. I mean, OK, here I am with this character, and I have no goals. The GM says, "What do you do next?" And I just sit there because I have no idea what the character would do next. In fact, I'm pretty sure the character would just look for something to eat. I mean, beyond survival, where does the character go?

Oh, wait....

Quote

QuoteHow does the GM "replace" these things in terms of giving the players new things to hook onto.

Ideally, he doesn't.  He provides possibilities and lets the PC's find things to get obsessed about.

That's precisely the same thing I'm talking about. How do you decide what "possibilities" to put in front of the character?

I think that I've become very spoiled by games like TROS and Hero Quest. In these games to make up stuff for play I merely look down at the character sheet, and see what the player has essentially said that he's interested in seeing. In your game, I guess I just throw random stuff out there and see what sticks? What if, as a player none of it seems interesting? Blame the GM?

What I'm looking for are ways for the player to communicate to the GM what he's interested in seeing other than just waiting for something interesting to come along, and then jumping on it if/when that happens. What I see is a group with some engaged players and others not, and the not engaged players resenting the engaged ones.

Quote

QuoteOh, and if I were a player of this game, I'd want to start with waking up. The build up seems pointless to me if we know what happens. Maybe each player could write their trek as part of their background, but playing it would seem a pantomime.

I totally disagree...

You disagree that I would want to start with waking up? Gee, glad to know you understand me better than I do.

Less snarkily, I'm not saying that you wouldn't like to play this part out, or MJ, apparently. Just that I, and however many players may be like me won't. If the action in that part has no bearing on the second part, other than to go through the motions, then I'm not interested. I'd want there to be some effect from the first part to the second to play it out. Now, MJ talks about bonding. That's potentially a good enough reason if it weren't for the fact that I think you can either A) just say that the characters are bonded, or B) mechanically represent this and thereby make it fact.

So, for example, if you were to have relationship stats that were developed in part one, that were then the only thing that the PCs started with in part two, then that would give me some reason to do part one (I'd like to see rivalries etc). In fact, even without mechanics, this is almost enough alone, but not quite.

QuoteOn top of everything else, how can you do this to the characters?  I mean, they spend their entire lives on this one thing, and they're ultra, ultra-trained for this one purpose, and you're going to hand-wave it?  C'mon!

Hand wave it? It's the premise of play. This isn't a movie (as John Kim points out) it's an RPG. I want to participate in the parts in which I get to create more than just dialog for my character, I want to be in the parts where I create plot. If the plot is known, I can't do that. So it's just not interesting to me to play out. Read, as an intro, or even write? Sure. Play? No.

But feel free to correct me on what I like to play again.

Mike

Come on, Mike.  I wasn't ridiculing you, I'm not trying to give you a hard time.  I happen to disagree, and I thought that was worth discussion.  The thread was, and is, about what sort of system might work well for this setting.

As you say, I'll try again.

Quote from: Mike HolmesOK, here I am with this character, and I have no goals. The GM says, "What do you do next?" And I just sit there because I have no idea what the character would do next. In fact, I'm pretty sure the character would just look for something to eat. I mean, beyond survival, where does the character go?

You see, I think this would be an interesting and fun thing to do.  You have this character, and lots of background, and everyone in the group knows this character well, but all of a sudden he's totally adrift.  Furthermore, everyone in the universe seems to want him to do X or Y or Z, and if he chooses X he can't do Y and Z and the people backing those choices will hate him, and so on.  And he really doesn't have a lot of structure to go with for this, because he's never had to make choices like this in his entire life.  Your question is the right one: "where does the character go?"  And I think this would be an interesting game setting exactly because that's precisely the character's problem, and not one that can be answered for him.

QuoteThat's precisely the same thing I'm talking about. How do you decide what "possibilities" to put in front of the character?

Enormous quantities of available material, plus more importantly people constantly throwing options at the person.  See, because this isn't just some group of guys, but The Champions, people keep saying, "You should do this thing because of this reason, shouldn't you?  You should be my friend, and whack that guy over there."  And they have to deal with that all the time --- sort of the down-side of fame, if you will.

QuoteIn your game, I guess I just throw random stuff out there and see what sticks? What if, as a player none of it seems interesting? Blame the GM?

Well, actually this is sort of why I think it would be useful to play out some of the Stage 1 stuff.  You can start exploring a bit, and decide a little bit what sorts of things interest you.  I mean, suppose the PC's decide to say, "Blow this, we're going to Bob's house -- or rather, we're going to see what's now where Bob's house used to be, and take it from there."  Okay, you've got a direction now.  If you refuse to take any steps, then you're pretty quickly going to have a lot of people who hate you, and furthermore some clever-dick is going to figure out how to treat your non-action as proof that he's right about everything.

QuoteWhat I'm looking for are ways for the player to communicate to the GM what he's interested in seeing other than just waiting for something interesting to come along, and then jumping on it if/when that happens.

But I don't see how this follows.  If they want to run out and do things, then there's no problem at all -- this is what I postulate.  If they just sit around waiting, there's more of a problem, which I thought was what you were describing before.

QuoteYou disagree that I would want to start with waking up? Gee, glad to know you understand me better than I do.

With respect, Mike, "snarky" doesn't begin to cover this.  I disagree that it wouldn't be fun.  I certainly agree that I don't understand you one slight bit, based on this remark.  Any further and I'll be censored by Ron.

QuoteNow, MJ talks about bonding. That's potentially a good enough reason if it weren't for the fact that I think you can either A) just say that the characters are bonded, or B) mechanically represent this and thereby make it fact.

Let me try this from a different angle.  I'm trying to construct a backstory that says, "You are 100% a party, in the classic sense, and you're pretty solid with that.  Despite the fact that you really don't have any actual interests, you apparently think your interests lie in common."  If I simply announce this, or do it through mechanics, this is the old, "Well, you've got PC on your forehead so you must be one of my gang."  I'd rather play it than militate it.  You apparently would prefer otherwise.

Setting aside the rest, which would continue our argument as is...

Point of thread: What system is good for this?
Your point: I don't like this setting.
My point: I don't care.  I do like this setting.  Some others do too, apparently.

What are you really contributing here?

Chris Lehrich

Quote from: clehrichSo where's the Reign of the Sun?  What the hell happened?  Well, this depends on the culture.

[*]One culture thinks the Sun is here, now, and that everyone who doesn't see this is simply wrong.
[*]One culture thinks the whole thing was a monstrous mistake, and they worship the Demon King, who they claim never died anyway.  The names of the Champions are now used as swear-words.
[*]One culture thinks the whole Reign of the Sun thing is actually a linguistic error – it just mean eternal lack of the Demon King, and nothing more.
[*]One culture thinks that the Demon King was only the physical manifestation of a larger force of evil, that the business about 1500 years was referring only to the first part of the whole thing, and that history itself will re-cycle on a grander scale, where the Champions are no longer necessary, and therefore this culture should go out and stomp anyone who might be on the wrong side, as indicated by their unwillingness to recognize the obvious truth.[/list:u]And so on.  You know, good, messy, ethnocentric humanity happily beavering away.  The Commentaries are now very important documents for lots of people trying to interpret what happened after the Big Battle, although the Prophecy has receded somewhat in importance.  Some new Commentaries have also been produced, reading the Prophecy in new terms.

Hmmm...

I can't help wonder if this is something you want to focus on.  Determining which one of these is true?  Maybe some sort of building pool, maybe even tied to character decisions in the original Big Battle.  Like pitching one of four different colored tokens in the pot everytime something is encountered that points to one of the four, then counting up all the tokens during the end-game and deciding what actually happened...  I dunno, just brainstorming.

*****

QuoteMeanwhile, technology has improved.  Clockwork magic has turned out to be a seriously cool thing, and produces lots of nifty machines.  One of the big new powers, which didn't even exist except as a forgotten atoll in the Champions' day, is in fact run entirely by wizards who are expert with clockwork.  These are the guys who found the Champions embedded in ice, in fact, and used magic to bring them back, frozen, to their atoll and revive them.

I'm not sure how much crunch you want, but I'd second Mike's suggestion of Feng Shui.  Tweak the color on the techno-mages (I cannot remember exactly what they are called and I'm not near my book), and you'd probably be good to go (or hell, even keep the demonic device color, that'd say something important).

Feng Shui has bad-ass PC's, mook rules, plenty of fighter splats, time crossing mechanics, and a very action movie bent.

However, it doesn't have much via personality mechanics if you are looking for something that can drive a theme (it does have relationship mechanics that are bundled in the normal skill system, but they are non-specific).  Characters get one heroic weakness (can't remember what the trait is called), and that's it for personality mechanics that I remember.

*****

Oh, and I might steal your idea and subject the other players in my group to it in some fashion. ;)

Quote from: crucielI can't help wonder if this is something you want to focus on.  Determining which one of these is true?  Maybe some sort of building pool, maybe even tied to character decisions in the original Big Battle.  Like pitching one of four different colored tokens in the pot everytime something is encountered that points to one of the four, then counting up all the tokens during the end-game and deciding what actually happened...  I dunno, just brainstorming.

On this one, I was pretty much thinking that there isn't an answer.  Sort of like, "Which God is the right one?"  I quite like human society as just a bunch of messiness with people taking things terribly seriously; when you know the answers, fanaticism can be totally justified.

QuoteI'm not sure how much crunch you want, but I'd second Mike's suggestion of Feng Shui.

I want to look into this, certainly, but can you tell me a bit more about it?  I sort of had the impression it was doing Hong Kong cinema or something, but it sounds like I have that way wrong.  What's the shtick?

QuoteOh, and I might steal your idea and subject the other players in my group to it in some fashion. ;)

Feel free.  Let me know how it comes out, though!

Chris Lehrich