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General Forge Forums => Site Discussion => Topic started by: Silmenume on March 18, 2006, 04:19:54 PM



Title: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: Silmenume on March 18, 2006, 04:19:54 PM
I just thought I would point out that some of the concepts that are the backbone of the theory here have found themselves in, for what passes for mass media in the role-play world, the April issue of Dragon Magazine.  The article, which uses the terms “Gamist, Narrativist and Simulationist,” is entitled “The Ecology of the Adventurer.”  While the manner in which the author used the words does violence to the ideas informing them, I thought the diffusing of ideas out of here fascinating.  Yes, this is a game design site, but it also has a wonderful secondary mission of improving role-play for all players.  Maybe some games which have been or will be designed her which are exemplary expressions of the various CAs will be cited in future publications.  Maybe there will be a break out… !


Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: coffeestain on March 18, 2006, 06:12:59 PM
The Escapist had done an article on this recently, as well (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/36/17).

Regards,
Daniel


Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: Larry L. on March 18, 2006, 11:36:48 PM
"Ecology of the Adventurer?" That sounds like an April Fools' article. (March issue = April newsstand)


Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: Kitanin on March 26, 2006, 01:15:40 PM
"Ecology of the Adventurer?" That sounds like an April Fools' article. (March issue = April newsstand)

Having read snippets of the article while waiting for my canonically unsatisfying Friday night D&D game to start, yes it's meant to be an April Fools' article.  On the other hand, the definitions of GNS given by the "kobold" writing the article are useful as examples of how not to look at Creative Agendas.


Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: David "Czar Fnord" Artman on March 27, 2006, 07:33:19 AM
Great... so GNS Theory--notoriously difficult to grasp--is presented inaccurately and as sarcasm in one of its first mass market presentations.

It sounds to me like Wizards is a little jealous that the "venerable" company they bought with their Cardstock Billions no longer defines "their" genre of play.

BOY, I need a COTT to LIE DOWN. ;-)
David


Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: Thunder_God on March 27, 2006, 07:42:32 AM
Dude, it's an April's issue, and it's presented by a Kobold. Overreacting much :P


Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: Thunder_God on March 27, 2006, 07:45:05 AM
I'd also like to note, Dragon is owned by Paizo, not Wizards.


Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: Ben Lehman on March 27, 2006, 07:47:57 AM
That's hot.  I'm jazzed.

yrs--
--Ben


Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: David "Czar Fnord" Artman on March 27, 2006, 09:53:59 AM
Dude, it's an April's issue, and it's presented by a Kobold. Overreacting much :P
...said the guy who neither coined the terms nor spent hours refining their meaning and interrelationships.

Maybe I did overreact. I was posting in the defense of ideas from folks who have two orders of magnitude more posts than either you or I. I can't judge how offensive such significant investors might find being the butt of April Fools jokes, but I figured it was worth a shout-out in their defense. I guess your vast experience at The Forge is such that you know they'd shrug off being mocked by a non-independant publication.

I also found it bothersome that a very useful lexicon developed here on The Forge is (apparently) perverted in this 'little joke' and, as such, any non-Forge-reader will have that much more trouble understanding and accepting that lexicon when they see its current, serious implementation: "Duuuude, that GNS stuff was, like, an April Fool's joke in Dragon! You are SO unhip--didn't you realize the Kobold was joking, duuuuude?"

Whatever--it's enough for me to boycott whoever currently publishes that advertising compendium called Dragon "Magazine". And to look askance at any contributor to The Forge that finds its efforts and results to be worthy of mockery and dilution.

Thanks for playing devil's advocate--someone always has to do it, after all *sigh*
David


Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: Clinton R. Nixon on March 27, 2006, 11:29:27 AM
David,

You are out of line and out of control. Calm it down, and if you bring mockery on any poster here, you will be moderated.


Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: Julian on March 27, 2006, 11:31:02 AM
Boycotting a product that you do not purchase anyway is ineffectual.

Calling for a boycott among other people who don't purchase it either is no more effectual.

The most likely effect of doing so for this reason is that people who hear about it think "Man, those Forge guys are a bunch of self-important jerks with no sense of humor."

Also, even if WotC did own Dragon, this wouldn't have had anything to do with jealousy, or The Man trying to Put You Down.

WotC don't care about the Forge. The amount of money involved is trivial. They're outselling you by the bushel.

The individual designers at WotC may care. The most likely effect of any interest on their part is some influence on future designs. Call me crazy, but I think you'd want that.

The most likely reason this showed up in an article is that the writer of the article has some interest in the theory. Maybe he doesn't get it. Maybe he gets it just fine, and distorted it for humorous effect. You can get all offended about it, but doing so doesn't matter. Getting offended for somebody else is just silly.

If you want to see more accurate portrayal of Forge theories in Dragon, try selling them an article on the subject. No idea if they'd even potentially be interested - I haven't read Dragon for about 15 years.

Better yet, try selling them articles about Forge games. Those are way more interesting and meaningful than the theory. Start with Dogs. It tends to produce "hey, cool" reactions even among those who don't find the subject matter interesting.

Most importantly, lighten up.


Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: David "Czar Fnord" Artman on March 27, 2006, 11:52:27 AM
I retract it ALL: If Clinton doesn't care about GNS being mocked, and my attempts to defend the efforts of a board at which I am a member are "silly," then I have literally NO desire to assit (nor ANY clue as to how I might, frankly).

I was just giving props to my boys who are being mocked in a "main stream" periodical--and them boys don't even give a damn and call ME a mocker (?!).

Fine by me; I take it ALL back. Let's all have a good laugh at these silly gamers and their GNS; it's April, and if they can't take it, more mockery!

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.
David


Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: Clyde L. Rhoer on March 27, 2006, 02:12:29 PM
Hi David,

If this article were intended as mockery for malicious reasons it would still be good. Gandhi said, "First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win." Eventually Traditional games will fold in some of the Forges ideas. They can't ignore that Traditional games don't address who narrates when, or that there are potentially ways to increase the size of the hobby by offering games that address other needs. I doubt there will be a wholesale acceptance, but there will be some borrowing.


Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: Ron Edwards on March 27, 2006, 02:16:04 PM
Ah geez.

Must I say it? Isn't it obvious? Being made fun of is part of the process. (Assembled multitudes: "What process is that?" Me: "Any process that yields anything.")

David, when someone's being unfair or juvenile, just zap me a private message. Clinton was totally right to moderate you, because you were posting defensively and emotionally ... and you know what? You still are, so quit it. Grow up a little.

Or, and Thunder God? You totally provoked him. Do that again and your posts hit the Inactive File. I don't have time to fuckin' babysit you as much as I do.

Now everyone kiss and make up. Read the parody. Chuckle and have fun. To be mocked, you have to be on the radar screen in the first place.

Best, Ron

P.S. High five to Clinton. Good eye.


Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: Andrew Cooper on April 04, 2006, 05:54:24 AM
If anything, it'll probably encourage some folks to check out The Forge, just so they can get the satire.  That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.



Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: Silmenume on April 04, 2006, 03:25:02 PM
My hopes exactly!


Title: Re: Dragon Magazine uses - "Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation" in an article
Post by: Ron Edwards on April 04, 2006, 05:29:06 PM
Hi guys,

I think this thread's run its course. Let's permit it to go night-night, now.

Best,
Ron