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General Forge Forums => Site Discussion => Topic started by: Clinton R. Nixon on January 17, 2003, 06:50:14 PM



Title: New article up
Post by: Clinton R. Nixon on January 17, 2003, 06:50:14 PM
There's a new article up at the Forge, "More Fantasy Heartbreakers" by the esteemed Ron Edwards.

Feel free to click the reviews link from the front page or at the top of the forum in order to take a look.


Title: New article up
Post by: Walt Freitag on January 17, 2003, 08:48:49 PM
While I agree that people should feel free to click the reviews link, those looking for the new article might get more satisfying results clicking the articles link instead. :-)
- W


Title: New article up
Post by: Paul Czege on January 17, 2003, 09:49:56 PM
Hey Ron,

How about some publication dates for these heartbreakers?

Paul


Title: New article up
Post by: Matt Machell on January 18, 2003, 05:54:12 AM
Interesting article.

I'm particularly intrigued by the idea of "Vampire Heratbreakers" as the new Basic Set Of Assumptions (tm). I can certainly think of a number of games that certainyl seem to have started from the premise of "lets fix what I don't like about the World of Darkness". It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

-Matt


Title: New article up
Post by: Ron Edwards on January 18, 2003, 10:04:16 AM
Whoops!

Undiscovered: 2001

Deathstalkers: copyright '99, '00, '01, '02, but I'm pretty sure the book debuted at Origins 2002. The game has existed at the grassroots level for many years, and it's 1999 "first edition" is a photocopied 660 page set of three-ring binders.

Demon's Lair: no copyright date listed in the text, but I was under the impression, upon meeting the authors, that it debuted at GenCon 2002.

Above, "debut" is not the same thing as "publication date," of course.

Best,
Ron


Title: New article up
Post by: Blake Hutchins on January 18, 2003, 10:36:01 AM
Nice piece, Ron.  Well-written and thought-provoking as ever, and the Vampire Heartbreakers comment parallels some thoughts I've had about "goth clones" like The Chosen, The Everlasting (an interesting one), Immortal, The Legacy, and maybe Witchcraft (though I don't see this one as a Heartbreaker per se).

Thanks for an interesting article.

Best,

Blake

[Edited to place a missing word.]


Title: New article up
Post by: Matt Wilson on January 18, 2003, 01:42:50 PM
It's funny, I was thinking about "space game" heartbreakers just before I reached the end of the article. It particularly interests me as I've never found a space adventure game I was satisfied with, and I've purchased quite a few in vain.

-Matt


Title: Yummy article
Post by: stingray20166 on January 21, 2003, 12:55:37 PM
I'm going to play a troll in my next game!  A friend of mine is running it.  It's a system he designed himself "based on D&D".  :-)

Bring on the sci-fi heartbreakers -- I'd love to see more of this series.  I've never found a satisfying sci-fi game, either.


Title: New article up
Post by: Jared A. Sorensen on January 21, 2003, 01:31:40 PM
Quote from: Blake Hutchins
Nice piece, Ron.  Well-written and thought-provoking as ever, and the Vampire Heartbreakers comment parallels some thoughts I've had about "goth clones" like The Chosen, The Everlasting (an interesting one), Immortal, The Legacy, and maybe Witchcraft (though I don't this one as a Heartbreaker per se).


Also: Armageddon, Darktown and The Seventh Seal. I would totally include Witchcraft, despite its success, as a noveau-heartbreaker.

Of course, I'd include 90% of what's out there...


Title: New article up
Post by: Ron Edwards on January 21, 2003, 02:31:05 PM
Hey,

Another Vampire Heartbreaker candidate, I think: Purgatory, by Atomic Hyrax games. I once spent a day with it and Immortal 2nd edition on one knee, scribbling a series of points based out of my copy of Vampire 1st edition on the other.

Best,
Ron


Title: New article up
Post by: Blake Hutchins on January 21, 2003, 03:40:31 PM
I dunno, Jared.  In regards to Witchcraft, maybe I'm confusing "heartbreakers" with "clones."  Witchcraft is damn near identical to Vampire mechanically, and it does some things a helluva lot better.  Come to think of it, Night Life would qualify as a Vampire Heartbreaker as well.

I'm curious: how do Chill and Kult fit into this category?  I'm pretty sure Kult doesn't, or am I now onto Call of Cthulhu Heartbreakers?

Best,

Blake


Title: New article up
Post by: Jared A. Sorensen on January 21, 2003, 04:48:49 PM
Quote from: Blake Hutchins
I dunno, Jared.  In regards to Witchcraft, maybe I'm confusing "heartbreakers" with "clones."  Witchcraft is damn near identical to Vampire mechanically, and it does some things a helluva lot better.  Come to think of it, Night Life would qualify as a Vampire Heartbreaker as well.

I'm curious: how do Chill and Kult fit into this category?  I'm pretty sure Kult doesn't, or am I now onto Call of Cthulhu Heartbreakers?


I believe Nightlife came out earlier. I'd have to check the archives...

And yeah, you're right...clone <> heartbreaker. I think. If you look at RPGs, you do tend to see some obvious genre clumping going on. Not even genres like fiction genres...but RPG genres...

Mixed-genre games like Rifts and Shadowrun. Post 90's dark games like Vampire (I'd also shoehorn in the "Reality is not what it seems" conspiracy games that came out in the 90's...In Nomine, Kult, Whispering Vault, Witchcraft, etc.).


Title: New article up
Post by: Ron Edwards on January 22, 2003, 06:51:29 AM
Hi there,

In the (slightly unexpected) groundswell of posts about the new Heartbreakers article, I'm seeing a tendency to call anything and everything a Heartbreaker out of enthusiasm.

Influence is present in any RPG design, I think, and even outright imitation isn't enough for Heartbreaker status.

Nightlife, Purgatory, The Chosen, Immortal ... all are candidates for Vampire Heartbreakers, I think. With a strong nod to Nephilim's influence as well.

But Kult? Call of Cthulhu and Vampire influenced, sure. Chill? Call of Cthulhu imitator, sure. But I, at least, intended that "Heartbreaker" would be a much more specific term.

Best,
Ron


Title: New article up
Post by: Blake Hutchins on January 22, 2003, 03:29:34 PM
Thanks for the word, guys.  I was pretty sure Kult didn't qualify as a Heartbreaker.  And yeah, Jared, you might be right about the chronology of Night Life.

FWIW, there are certainly S-F Heartbreakers.  Web of Stars is one that comes to mind.

Best,

Blake


Title: New article up
Post by: Zak Arntson on January 22, 2003, 05:18:01 PM
Just wanted to drop a line and say this latest article is wonderful. I sure wrote my share of partially-completed Heartbreakers way back. The article's making me want to write another one up, as a fun exercise. Though mine would "fix/combine" basic D&D & D&D3E.

I'm not sure I'd agree with there being Sci-Fi Heartbreakers (unless they came pre-late 80's), because there I haven't seen such a thing as [space game] Sci-Fi, like there is D&D Fantasy. Vampire achieved such popularity that there is a visible Vampire Modern.

Sci-fi RPGs (the ones I've seen) do tend towards a weird blend of Star Trek and Aliens, but it seems like a Heartbreaker family needs to have the Influence->Ur-Game->Heartbreaker based on Ur-Game progression.

Perhaps there should be two new threads? One for discussion of Vampire Heartbreakers, another for Sci-Fi?


Title: New article up
Post by: Jared A. Sorensen on January 22, 2003, 06:12:51 PM
Quote from: Zak Arntson
Perhaps there should be two new threads? One for discussion of Vampire Heartbreakers, another for Sci-Fi?


Hmmm...this hearkens back to the "half-dead" discussion:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2730


Title: New article up
Post by: talysman on January 23, 2003, 01:54:12 PM
Quote from: Jared A. Sorensen
Quote from: Zak Arntson
Perhaps there should be two new threads? One for discussion of Vampire Heartbreakers, another for Sci-Fi?


Hmmm...this hearkens back to the "half-dead" discussion:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2730


hmmm... as a tangent, since I wasn't around for that original thread: did anyone suggest the pseudoundead from AD&D 1stEd Monster Manual II as a possible source of the half-dead races?

back to the topic... I remember seeing a game advertised on the web a year or two ago that almost certainly qualifies as a Vampire heartbreaker. it was called "Dhampir". it was very, very loosely based on legends about the offspring of vampires and still-living women, in the sense that they took something that was originally just a regular mortal with some vampire-hunting powers and grafted all the angst and blood-powers from V:tM onto him. the advertising blurb I read sounded like a direct copy of typical White Wolf advertising.

ooops, that makes me think of another possible source for those "half-dead" races: Vampire Hunter D. another rewrite of the dhampir legends.