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275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4285 Members Latest Member: - Jason DAngelo Most online today: 66 - most online ever: 565 (October 17, 2020, 02:08:06 PM)
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Author Topic: Forge Glossary  (Read 13832 times)
Ian Charvill
Member

Posts: 377


« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2004, 10:15:42 AM »

Doyce, Raven, Ralph

You're all phrasing your posts as if your arguing with me but on the whole your not.  You're arguing against the underlying assumptions of Ron's model.  Under Ron's model only narrativism will reliably produce narratives with literary qualities (protagonist, antagonist, theme emerging from the narrative not predetermined, rising action to a climax).

He's says it plain and simple in the thread I linked above "Creative Agendas, Aesthetic Purism, and 'the' Social Mode" second page, eighth post down or thereabouts.  It's the one where Ron straight out states only narrativism will reliably produce a narrative.  If you think newbies will react badly against those assertions, then that's just you thinking newbies will react badly to Ron's assertion about Narrativism.

The language I'm suggesting merely puts those assertions front and centre.

Doyce

Quote
Not to be curt or argumentative, but... no. It feels alienating, off-putting, and superior -- or, more to the point, I believe it will seem that way to people coming into the Forge, which is not (I think) what the aim is.


If you think the position is alienating, off-putting and superior, go and have the argument with Ron who's ideas they are.  I'm merely suggesting a different way of phrasing an existing idea - in a way that I feel makes the underlying assumptions clearer.  Because I would bet you, dollars to donuts, Ron is saying 100% that narrativism will produce more reliably a dramatic narrative in the sense that a play is a dramatic narrative.

Raven

You're saying drama - or more specifically dramatic narrative - means something to me that it doesn't to you: how would you define dramatic narrative?  What about your definition of drama doesn't match with Ron's definitions of narrative in the thread cited above?  Because my feeling is that the nuts and bolts of how narrativism is formulated owed a large part to a book called "The Art of Dramatic Writing" and my coining of words is not accidental.

Ralph

You hit the meat of my point most effectively.  Maybe one spatchcocked word is as good as another but I think the reason for the common I don't grok G/N/S is because they are not sufficiently well explained yet, including that the best terms are not currently in use. I'm not saying you haven't had these arguments, I'm saying that some of your conclusions are flawed.

But the rubber is hitting the road with this issue: will the glossary as it stands diminish those kind of threads and the misuse of terms?  Time will tell.

And what's more, I'm not the one writing the glossary so there's no mileage to pursuading me of anything.  So I won't blame anybody for not wanting to take up any more of the thread.
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Ian Charvill
Jason Lee
Member

Posts: 729


« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2004, 10:34:37 AM »

Oh, maybe it has fallen out of vogue but:  The Ball?.  Also, the jazz band analogy (I'm sure Ron can find a thread for that one).
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- Cruciel
Bankuei
Guest
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2004, 10:43:03 AM »

Hi Jason,

The Ball is somewhat in a nebulous state.  I'm trying to nail down what it means for me, and Ron has his own notions of it.  I've given him permission to use the term, since he seems far better at giving solid definitions to things that I am.  Plus, I think the concept needs to be examined more in play, before it can become an actually useful concept, instead of a nifty idea, which is what I see it as at this point.

Chris
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Jack Spencer Jr
Guest
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2004, 10:46:19 AM »

Hell yeah, the ball. I like that. I like that a lot. I don't know if references to the game Four Square would help much since in a thread were the Ball is discussed, the rules of four square were brought up and beaten to dead when the rules for Four Square were beside the point.
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greyorm
Member

Posts: 2233

My name is Raven.


WWW
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2004, 12:59:20 PM »

Quote from: Ian Charvill
Under Ron's model only narrativism will reliably produce narratives with literary qualities (protagonist, antagonist, theme emerging from the narrative not predetermined, rising action to a climax).

You're saying drama - or more specifically dramatic narrative - means something to me that it doesn't to you: how would you define dramatic narrative? What about your definition of drama doesn't match with Ron's definitions of narrative in the thread cited above?

Drama = emotional, exciting, often 'overstated' events and their results.

However, I'm not going to get into a big arugment about the definition of terms. Plain and simple, I can't see the difference you're claiming between using the word "dramatic narrative," just plain "narrative," or "story." They ALL create the exact same problem for me.

Narrativist techniques will reliably produce a story. Simulationist and gamist techniques will not reliably produce a story.
 vs.
Narrativist techniques will reliably produce a dramatic story. Simulationist and gamist techniques will not reliably produce a dramatic story.

Both sound like the same thing to me, and I'd respond to them both the exact same way. You're just adding an adjective. I mean, my Gamist game can create a rising climax! All stories have antagonists and protagonists! It was dramatic when Bill rolled that '20' and killed the dragon! (or at least, that's going to be the argument -- the same one as used before)

Using the term "drama" to differentiate Narrativist-produced story doesn't make it any more clear to me that a Sim game doesn't reliably produce a narrativist/dramatic/whatever story. The term you are proposing, for me, would have solved nothing, nor made the definition any more clear.

Ultimately, Ralph is correct when he states the "intuitive" terminology choice you have offered is equally "intuitive" to everyone else, but intuited completely differently. You either 'get' that, or you don't. And if the latter, well, I don't have the time to argue about how I "should" get it, because that would be an empty discussion.

What it boils down to is that a person is either ready to accept different results based on game styles without attaching value judgements to those differing results, or they aren't. That's where much of the problem really comes from (ie: "What are they talking about, I produce story in my game!! It's dramatic!!").
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Rev. Ravenscrye Grey Daegmorgan
Wild Hunt Studio
Ian Charvill
Member

Posts: 377


« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2004, 12:07:41 AM »

Raven, you're right that we're at an impasse.  If you don't see any difference in meaning between "dramatic narrative" and "narrative", if you feels that adjectives have no semantic weight, then what more is there to say?
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Ian Charvill
Bill Cook
Member

Posts: 501


« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2004, 11:18:45 AM »

(This is just a glib comment of praise, unrelated to discussions that have arisen in this thread.)

The glossary is handy dandy!  I'm already using it as a reference to my posts.
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Ian Charvill
Member

Posts: 377


« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2004, 09:28:51 AM »

Pastiche is a technique as well as a product, to define it purely as the latter is synecdoche.  Sorcerer & Sword is a good example of something that's full of great advice about pastiche as a technique (i.e. producing a roleplaying session in the style of 20s-30s pulp fantasy) but not as a product.
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Ian Charvill
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