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Started by Darren Hill, July 23, 2005, 05:34:03 AM
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on July 30, 2005, 04:58:32 PMI suggest that to narrate a succeeded goal away will always need another conflict.
QuoteI won a goal: You're left dead in the desert.You'll have to win: Finding your way back from the desert.
QuoteAs far as narrated events go, I don't deem them any stronger than out-of-conflict narration as regards counternarrating them. The narrator of a conflict says that my character goes out of town, I can narrate him right back in after the conflict, when I again have some narration power. If he wants any system backing to me going away, he'll have to win a specific conflict with that as the goal, and even then I can repeal the degree through another conflict. Even if I can narrate myself back in, though, I'll still have to
QuoteAlso, remember that the other parties of the conflict will get their goals. If the conflict fizzles because there's nobody opposing anybody, then everybody else gets their goal. If there's still a conflict, the successes are decided normally. The only thing that won't happen is if somebody's goal makes the folder's goal unattainable: in that case the goal in question is also "folded out"; it's not successful, but it's not made impossible to reach either. So if I'm raping you and you resist, you fold, then we have a situation where the same conflict can be initiated again, because neither goal by the above definition of fold-out was made unattainable by the fizzled conflict. Whatever happened in narration, the issue is still on the table. But if I tried to rob a bank and you tried to reveal my identity, and either of us folds, then the other one gets his wish, because the goals are independent from each other.
QuoteNow, I admit that I've a number of times wished that there were a way to resolve the narrator of a fizzled conflict, because deciding how to depict the folding (I'll assume here for simplicity's sake that there's just A against B here) is often a charged question. I give the narration right to the one who didn't fold (on the violence principle), but the rules don't comment.
QuoteAnyway, how to depict it? The above principles in action look like this:My goal: Rob a bank.Your goal: Reveal my identity.You fold: I rob the bank succesfully, and you don't manage to reveal my identity. However, I didn't manage to give you a false impression either, so your will and means to revealing my identity are still intact. As you can see, how much folding resembles losing depends on how much you lose dramatically by postponing the conflict. This is in the rules by design; folding means postponing a conflict, and nothing more.
QuoteHope that answered the questions.
QuoteFor the record, I can kinda understand how DD is not a fount of clarity for all. For myself it hit like a bolt of clear lightning; not in a revelation kind of way, but I understood everything (except the reason for not having "small conflict" rules) in it instantly, for the first time seeing a functional, tight narrativist machine in all it's glory. I guess that the book only works like that if you already have all the tools for understanding it in your head.
QuoteOne last point about the rape story (I read that DiV thread, too): in Dust Devils you can always fold as long as the cards have not hit the table. So it's very unlikely that you could manage to play through the motions of a conflict with your character's rape as the opposing goal without ever realizing that you don't want it. And when you do realize, you can fold.
Quote from: Darren Hill on July 31, 2005, 01:38:07 AMWith your first example:QuoteI won a goal: You're left dead in the desert.You'll have to win: Finding your way back from the desert.What happens if you fail the conflict to get back? You'd need another conflict, and the continuing loss of stat points would ensure that it's not the same as in some games where you can just keep retrying till you succeed. You face consequences, and hopefully the narrator will be making sure that continued failure in this goal leads to more interesting adversity.That sounds good.
QuoteQuoteAs far as narrated events go, I don't deem them any stronger than out-of-conflict narration as regards counternarrating them. The narrator of a conflict says that my character goes out of town, I can narrate him right back in after the conflict, when I again have some narration power. If he wants any system backing to me going away, he'll have to win a specific conflict with that as the goal, and even then I can repeal the degree through another conflict. Even if I can narrate myself back in, though, I'll still have toLeft me hanging there! This is what I think you're getting at - the person narrating doesn't have the same kind of power as the person who actually wins, but the narration still needs to be respected.
QuoteBut there are a couple of concepts in the above quote that I'm uncertain about.You say, "But if I tried to rob a bank and you tried to reveal my identity" - aren't they completely separate conflicts?Or maybe they are simultaneous, but opposed to the GMs hand not each others?I'm not getting how they would be the same opposed contest.
QuoteThese goals seem to me to be ones that could both be achieved, and both fail. I would think you'd handle it this way:Robber places cards down, Identity seeker places cards down, and GM places cards down.Robber beats GM: he robs the bank (goal not opposed by IDSeeker)Robber beats IDSeeker: keeps his identity secret.IDSeeker beats GM: discovers robber's secret.
QuoteNote: by this interpretation, I'd handle death as follows: you lose a conflict to the death, and you appear dead, or are being treated by someone, or whatever. You need to then succeed another conflict to get back into a situation where you can face the person who defeated you. It might be the same as being incapacitated, but it certainly doesn't have to be.
Quote from: Matt Snyder on August 01, 2005, 01:06:04 PMExcellent discussion guys. Thanks for talking through these superb ideas. Others reading this will benefit greatly.