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Author Topic: "Blood Bounty: Ultra Violent & Rated R  (Read 16705 times)
Ron Edwards
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« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2005, 12:39:56 PM »

Hey.

People who aren't benefiting from this thread, don't follow it.

Sifolis, don't whack at people who are trying to help.

If both of these instructions are followed, I won't have to do some moderating.

Best,
Ron
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Walt Freitag
Member

Posts: 1039


« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2005, 01:46:04 PM »

I know how I'd like to benefit from this thread, so I'll give it a try.

Sitolis, I'm interested in how you and your friends play up the violence aspect of this game, and in what your game text says about how you play up the violence aspect of the game. Note that those might be two very different things. My own curious interest is in discussing the first. You might benefit from discussing the second, in terms of producing a game text that will better instruct players in how to have the same kind of fun with your game that you've been having with it all these years.

It's clear that you've (collectively) had a lot of fun with this game, and it's also apparent that the violence is an important part of that experience. The title you've given the game, the title you gave to this thread, and your repeated mentions of the game's violence in your posts (including the ridiculous "this may be more violent than your provincial little minds can handle" attitude that occasionally peeks through) all speak to that. Great! I'm into it. You've got my attention.

But how does ultra-violence actually come into play and affect play? So fac, I've seen only a list of kinds of injuries that characters can suffer, no more (or less) grisly or violent than a hundred damage charts and critical hit tables I've seen elsewhere. That might be a good starting point, but it doesn't get anywhere by itself. Compare these three hypothetical dialogs during play:

GM:  The chizzkid's vibroblade slices your left arm off above the elbow, while the concussion of the sonic blaster shot smashes into your skull and pops your right eyeball right out of its socket.
PLAYER: Crap! Well, no time to put Quik-Clot on the wounds now. I'll drop my two-handed plasma rifle and use my hand blaster from now on, until I can get a re-gen..

GM:  The chizzkid's vibroblade slices your left arm off above the elbow, while the concussion of the sonic blaster shot smashes into your skull and pops your right eyeball right out of its socket.out of its socket.
PLAYER: I scream in agony until either someone tranqs me or I black out from shock.

GM:  The chizzkid's vibroblade slices your left arm off above the elbow, while the concussion of the sonic blaster shot smashes into your skull and pops your right eyeball right out of its socket.
PLAYER: Crap! My arm! Aw shit!
OTHER PLAYER: Dude, watch that stump, don't spurt your arterial blood on the instrument panels!
PLAYER: Is my eye still attached or what?
OTHER PLAYER: Oops! Sorry, clumsy me, I think I already stepped on it.
PLAYER: Bastard! I'll aim that arterial blood right in your face!

I doubt that any of these is really representative of how your game actually sounds in play. The point is to show that the same in-game-world effects can come across very different depending on how the players actually play them -- not in terms of what kind of points are lost or rolls are made, but how the players really interact around the table.

So, how do you play up the violence when you play Blood Bounty?

Do players get social rewards (approving expressions, groans, "dude, that's sick!") for describing vivid scenes of violence done by or to their characters? And if so, does the game text tell players do do that?

Do characters who died in memorable ways get memorialized in your game lore? For instance, if Crim Griddle the Space Pirate suffers an excruciating slow asphyxiation in a leaky sabotaged spacesuit, are those who suffer similar fates subsequently spoken of as "pulling a Griddle" or "Crimming?" And if so, does the game text tell players how to do that?

Do situations in the game often involve seeking revenge that's frustratingly slow in coming, making it extra satisfying when the ultimate payoff is as grisly as possble? And if so, does the game text tell players how to do that?

Does game play generate such horribly emotionally stressed situations that extreme violence is the only appropriate catharsis, like in this example from an Actual Play thread of an ultra-violent game called Violence Future:{/url]

Quote from: Ron Edwards
Characters (in respective order of the three players listed above): a depraved male samurai who eats his victims' hearts and still nurses at his mother's breasts; a depraved female samurai heavily in S&M, as well as whatever you call wanting to kill your partners during sex; a slothful male ronin who kills, steals, and manipulates because it's the easiest way to be comfortable, yet idealizes his friendship with a woman he's never met.

Events during play ... oh man, I'm not even sure I want to go into this ... suffice to say, the challenge was to create dramatic interconnecting stories using templates including sexual torture, broken hearts, corporate intrigue, and capitalist demons from hell, and I think we achieved this to a large extent. I suppose that in keeping with the topics of the above threads, I might as well disclose.

Kyber's character ended up naked and dead, straddling (still inserted) the also-naked and equally-dead body of her mortal enemy in a pedophile-prostitute house; she was slain by a poisoned French tickler, and he was killed by her with a broken-ended glass rod, through the eye, as her final act. My character ended up embracing his sex-slave as the only person who'd never betrayed him, and killing both her and himself on his own sword, pinning them together, with his valet decapitating him as the seppuku clincher.

And again, if so, does the game text tell players how to do that?

I keep repeating that last question because when you've played and loved a game as long as you have with BB, there are probably ingrained habits of player interaction around the table that have become key to making the game fun for you, that you might not think to mention in the game text because they're not the kind of "rules" that directly involve points, die rolls, or in-game-world artifacts. I'm sure the written rules do a good job of guaranteeing that there's a high player-character death rate, but do they tell you what makes lots of player-character deaths fun for you?

For my own curiosity, I'm interested in what you and your friends actually do around the table to have fun with the ultra-violence in the game. For your own possible benefit, I'm interested in what your game text actually says about how to have fun with the ultra-violence in the game, and whether there's a gap between those two things.

- Walt
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Sifolis
Member

Posts: 53


« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2005, 05:44:06 AM »

only got ten minutes to type..so ill try to answer what i can.

the text makes alot of reference to violence, and the game sports lots of items, monsters and weapons that do horrble things....

there are also benefits to some games in BB that make violence between players to be expected...or at lest "more" expected.....what i mean is, every game has a conract, like ive mentioned, that details the "pay conditions"...one contdition is commonly called "to split"....a contract that is "to split" is offered only to those who return alive, and is split among them.

"if you kill this kidnapper and return my child, i will pay you 500,000c to split"...man o man, how many times have i seen a whole team wack each other in hopes for a bigger share....but thats only one aspect.

there are tons of off the wall monsters that do everything from "fuck your face to death" or "rip your skin from your head", there are tons of weapons "the hand blender, or the mualer_ hat rip through skin and bone....these sort of things add to the violence.....

but as you said, that can be seen as just "in house" ways we play, and other players may play peacfully if not from our group....

i guess the real point of violence is the fact that all damage can and will kill you if rolled well...its almost like everyone stays at the same "danger of dieing" level as a first level player in D&D....everyone is subject to fatal wounds, or damage that can kill in 1-3 shots....like real life....most people dont get hit more the 1-3 shots without suffering death or serious wounds.

the characture sheet also has damage for every aspect of in-game damage...mental, physical, blood, bone, nerve, respitory, etc....all weapons damage diffrent parts of this system.

but again...players may play peacfully. but thats the players.

the rules, the story and the realm you play in is NATRAULLY violent...everything in the book details the way the worlds work in BB, how violence is everywhere....if people can kill you wih a single shot....the your in trouble, you need to be violent to not suffer that sort of death....

alot of players have coined the phrase "meat grinder" when sent on  a mission.

there ARE rules on making a player a ledgend actually...and yes, players who die the worst of deaths are often saluted for all games to come....and yes we all have had brutal deaths that are still talked about today, years after it went down.

the whole "my arm got cut off, dont get blood on the access panle" thing you said, was so much like what actually goes on in BB that i felt you must have played....
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Sifolis
Member

Posts: 53


« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2005, 07:58:59 AM »

got 3 more minutes....

the game "can" be played peacfully id assume, but the damage system/combat system almost always causes fatalities or crippling effects...the game is set to hurt....and it hurts.

the games text does alot of disscussion on "cut throat" play, and what its benefits are...as well as what downfalls may come your way for being too "cut throat".....

reveng? o god yes....the reveng factor is backed up both in rules and in the player's mind from get-go....how many times have i held grudges agaisnt a characture that killed my last guy i was playing? only to come in with a pre-determination to kill that rat-asshole with my next FCO i bring into play...y'see, the game has an indepth rule system that actually allows OOC knowledge, yes yes, you actually ALLOWED to benefit from such info that you shouldnt know....there are rules that limit what kind of OOC knowledge your allowed to use, and what kind you cant...but if im pissed cus you killed my last guy, bet your ass i may hold a grudge and kill you with my next guy....this is condisered "cheesy" or "metagaming" in more civil games..but in BB, thats just par for the course and players are not to be punished for such actions.

the game's level of violence is backed up by the text...and once players see what kind of shit they can get away with, what kind os serious damage u can put on a player, and how fun it is to see somone's pelvis shatter into fragments, reducing him to a hover-chair for life...or worse...a crawling freek....then they fall into suit quickly..getting "blood thirsty" for blood bounty.

i understand your curiousity on if its all due to "our table manners" but i assure you..the game has be tested with groups of new people without my normal group dozens of times...it always turns into a blood fest...it has to...cus a peacful player almost always gets "face fucked" or "ripped apart" by the NPCs alone...

to survive such a combat system..you have to be ruthless.
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FzGhouL
Member

Posts: 76


« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2005, 03:13:50 PM »

Are characters able to be honorable?


But more importantly: Do you have a game mechanic that drives the players into a frenzy? To get into the game, it seems as if you'd need to froth blood from your very own mouth, rather than simulate your character being blood thirsty. A mechanic involving the player to do something, from yelling, to pounding, etc, could bring a non-violent player, into the mindset of the characters.

Next: Do girls play? ;)
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Walt Freitag
Member

Posts: 1039


« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2005, 09:23:07 PM »

Hi Sifolis,

(Sorry about the typo in your screen name in my previous post.)

Thanks, those were some pretty informative responses. It sounds like you've got the ultra-violence pretty well integrated into the system. I like the idea of weapons and monsters doing specific gory damage, rather than generic damage (such as hit points) or randomly varying damage (such as in critical hit tables).

Quote from: Sifolis
reveng? o god yes....the reveng factor is backed up both in rules and in the player's mind from get-go....how many times have i held grudges agaisnt a characture that killed my last guy i was playing? only to come in with a pre-determination to kill that rat-asshole with my next FCO i bring into play...y'see, the game has an indepth rule system that actually allows OOC knowledge, yes yes, you actually ALLOWED to benefit from such info that you shouldnt know....there are rules that limit what kind of OOC knowledge your allowed to use, and what kind you cant...but if im pissed cus you killed my last guy, bet your ass i may hold a grudge and kill you with my next guy....this is condisered "cheesy" or "metagaming" in more civil games..but in BB, thats just par for the course and players are not to be punished for such actions.

And just to be sure I'm clear on this... the rules actually state this directly, right? That you can use certain kinds of OOC knowledge and that the GM shouldn't attempt to suppress or punish players whose characters take revenge? That's very good. That's just the kind of thing I was talking about.

Quote
but as you said, that can be seen as just "in house" ways we play, and other players may play peacfully if not from our group....

This is me shouting "NO! NO! NO!" at the screen. You do not want other players who buy your game to try to play it that way. Because the game isn't designed to be played that way, and if they try to do so, the game will probably suck. Trying to reassure me, or your customers, that yes, they can play the game in other ways if they want to, is exactly the opposite of what you want them to do. You can't stop anyone from doing so if they're truly determined, but your goal here should be to do everything possible to encourage them to play it in the way that the game rules actually support.

Look, if you were selling Toyotas, would you say, "These are great on the road, but of course some drivers may try to use them to cross deep lakes?" Would you be OK with that? No, because if people try to drive across lakes in Toyotas they'll sink. And they'll probably blame you that they didn't float.

Of course, all sane people know that cars have certain limitations in how they can be used effectively, such as that they don't float. But many apparently sane role players deny that role playing games have any limitations in how they can be used effectively. There's this pervasive myth that any role playing game should be able to be played in any way at all and still be fun. Players know from experience it's not really true, but they still pretend it is because for some reason it's "supposed" to be true of role playing games. Most of the people who post at the Forge believe otherwise. We think that games can benefit from being "focused," which is to say the game rules should be designed to bring about some particular kind of play and should do everything possible to reward players for playing them that way. That idea is what most of the big words and complex theorizing here at the Forge are all about.

From the sound of it, your game is pretty focused... which is why you don't have to accept that "some players will play them differently." There's no need to hedge. Go ahead and say, "This game is about gore, violence; and betrayal; if you want to play peaceful, choose a different game!"

Quote
there ARE rules on making a player a ledgend actually...and yes, players who die the worst of deaths are often saluted for all games to come....and yes we all have had brutal deaths that are still talked about today, years after it went down.

Excellent! Do whatever you can to support these things in the actual rules and setting. For example, does the FCO headquarters have a Hall Of Fame in it? You might have rules for what qualifies for entry into the Hall Of Fame. (A sampling of Hall Of Fame entries from your own play would also make great chapter headings for your game book.)

Or even better... is there an FCO training video? Something like Driver's Ed films that shows one horrible death after another? The FCO authorities could pay big bucks for footage gory enough to "go in the training video." So when your buddy gets into mortal danger, you might have to decide whether it's better to help him out, or film it.

Quote
the whole "my arm got cut off, dont get blood on the access panle" thing you said, was so much like what actually goes on in BB that i felt you must have played....

Call it an educated guess. Based not so much on the segments of the game text you posted, but on your comments. Provide examples and  guidance so that players who read the full game text don't have to guess.

- Walt

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Sifolis
Member

Posts: 53


« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2005, 08:23:43 AM »

we have had many girls play BB, but we only have one in our weekly group now....shes not your "average" girl of barbie-lore....shes one kick ass chick.

the rule book plainly states that the game is violent and that its a direct slap to the normal-rpg game....when i say "peaceful play" is possible, i say it as the devil's advocate....much like id say D&D is possible to be played without swords, or vampire would be possible without sucking blood...it is indeed possible...but if your gunna play BB like a friendly game, why did you pick the game?

its funny u mention a training video...in the discription of the FCO (in the book) you are assumed to have watched a 6 hour video before you signed your FCO license...we dont have a "tangible" video...but it is a mentioned game detail that every player has watched a 6 hour video that shows FC work to be deadly.

dont get me wrong, there are "hit-point" type damages in the game...but thats only for Palsic-weapon-fire (think laser that doesnt burn you), Palsic fire does not rip or burn skin, but it does take away damage points....but, bludgeioning, slicing-cutting, never damage, bone damage and mental damage are also equally used systems of damage in game, and they work off physical gore and bodily harm.

hall of fame? yes...seeing as anyone who plays BB for more then a year will possibly goe through 20-50 FCOs, a hall of fame gets quite large, quickly....there are no "levels", you dont magically gain levels by winning, or surviving...you do get paid, gear, ability to raise stats, skills and abilities...but no levels....the main thing that makes you a ledgend at the table is "how many game runs have you survived". right now the longest run FCO lasted 8 full games (it is possible to have 3 games and a half, or a quarter-game-run)...the second longest runner was 6 games.

the FCO line of work is not somthing one signs up to do for life...most people are assumed to 'Run skips' (adventure as an FCO) for 1-2 runs...and then they retire. y'see in the BB universe most people who work a normal job get paid about1-2 credits a week, and thats enough to survive....a typical FCO run (or skip) pays anywhere from 10,000c - 100,000c and up. people choose to join a FCO agency to make big money fast...

there are also fans who watch FCO statistics, buying collector cards n figures, they are alot like fan-boy startrek lovers, or comic book reading fanatics...they follow the FCO's carreer, and this makes it so your FCO gets famous the more runs he goes on.

the 8 game runner ended his carreer with over 12-million credits in his bank, a slew of blast-proof-homes that were very high-class and well protected. he was on TV and pretty much seen as a role modle for kids. he was getting 500,000c per game due to contracts with merch-dealers who were selling shoes, weapons and cereals under his name. he was offered a political job as a city-block mayor (a single city block can harbor over 5 million people mind you....buildings can reach heights of 3-6 miles high). and the rules back this up....the more runs you get, the more loyal fans you get, the more money you get, the more public love you aquire. it all happens quick for a FCO who stays running...but as all FCOs know, the most famous saying between them is

"you cant run forever"

they all know this..the danger level (no matter what) is high (50-80% death rate in their line of work). there is no getting around the fact that if your hit by a bat...it has a chance to shatter or break the limb it hits, and that a single bolt-bullet in the head kills most people without without a save-roll (of course there have been plenty of players with high enough Ballz-score to have bullets bounce off them like superman)...

anyway....heres somthing  havant shared yet...a part that makes BB fun as hell....ready?

you play in a "universe" thats huge...here in this space, there are countless forms of life, all are the desendents of those who fled the Old-verse to live in the New-verse (those who havnt followed from the first posts...the old universe has been destroyed in a war).
You get to invent and create your race (there are rules to do this...and you can have a ball rolling your FCOs and making there race up on the spot)
You design how it looks, how it talks, everything..you get to choose from evolutionary elements and abilities (night-sight, wings, tail etc).

you race is almost gone...you are probally one of the last of your kind, and the government classes races at the brink of exstintion to be Class-A (Almost gone). you probally will never see another of your race ever. thats how rare you are.

Now...alot of players often just say "i look just like THIS guy from THAT movie"!!!, thats fine....i personally like inventing very possible life forms with cool self-made looks and style...but im not innocent in the "media stealing" of a characture's design...ive played FCOs who acted and looked like the following....for fun.
Big bird
Cobra commander
Under dog
Darth vader
Tom cruiz (dont ask)
the guy up my street who runs the corner store
A 5ft tall smurf...

ive played, even myself, as an FCO. theres never 2 FCOs of the same race...Not "player FCOs", alot of NPC FCOs share races...thas becuase as a Player your forced to playing a class A race...they are not.
Ill discribe a really good game group i onced GM-ed for....these guys kicked ass together.
Kedishev-Dox (grey skinned self made race. tech-mage who infact was he 8-game-runner)
Christ - who looked just like jesus ...and was a Fanatic (the class that summons divine powers)
Ronald regan- you got it..and the kid did a great impression of him....he was a Voodooer
Bruce Wee- looked just like bruce lee. and was stacked with martial art skills and sword styles...he was a space ninja
Murry Mc-murder (a legendary 5 game runner), a lepechuan with a thirst for blood and gold...thats all he did, was kill for gold...his game runs were due to a certain weapon that he abused each game, hey that allowed, youll die..watch.

that group rulled...and i watched each one die over time...Once Dox fell, it was all down hill...Murry still lives actually..but the kid who played him moved to newyork with his mother at the time..he still calls me, years later, saying "if i come down i can play murry in the 4th addition game right? I tell him..yes, but i gotta change him to fit the new rules"

ok this post has gotten way to long...

ill go now...

thanks for asking stuff.


"Designed today"
24 Flesh spells that needed revising. and sold ferg a new computer.
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Sifolis
Member

Posts: 53


« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2005, 05:54:40 AM »

Done today.

The rest of the Flesh spell...over 150 of them all finished and disgustingly "blood bounty"...most old, just tweeked to fit the new rule system...some new, just cus we couldnt hel but add a few...and some once removed from another addition but put back into the new addition by popular demand....it took for ever to regulate and police some of the spells for the new rules..but i can say finally...done with that.

Now...we are working on the Tech-spells...jesus....over 150 spells that only work on technology. hope to bang it all out this week...busy week, but always got time to work with our RPG-child .
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Sifolis
Member

Posts: 53


« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2005, 01:21:16 PM »

A actual play of BB has begun its length in the AP forum. Its long...its horribly banged out and flitty, but i have 15 minutes to spear...hey. yknow...


Blood Bounty Quote:
Todd: Can i make a guy whos just a huge penis!?
GM: um..yes...but you want arms and legs right?
Todd: Of course! what do you think im stupid?
GM: You want to play a walking dick...
Todd: So?
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Sifolis
Member

Posts: 53


« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2005, 04:59:36 PM »

Just an update on progress.

all the Tech spells have been revised and finished for editing...thats 120 spells. and one of our artists (the one who did art for white-wolf) has delivered 5 pictures for the book...looking wonderful. its good to have an artist who has done work professionally for a real RPG company...i just want to say THANKS FRANK for playing BB for all these years, and donating your art for free.

peace.
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Sifolis
Member

Posts: 53


« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2005, 05:52:11 AM »

after a long 11 hour play test last night (of the new combat system) ive come to understand three horrible points of interest to our design.

1- the damage system is too quick. the 3rd addition rules handled much better, at the expense of more math, but it still seemed to "feel" better and more fluid.

2- the entire 4th addtion must be tweeked to correct this gross oversight...that means two months of work will be mostly scrapped....that sucks..but hey...ive been here before.

4- Bolt weapons need to  be worked on. the old system made bolt weapons very fun, and very "real feeling". as the rules stand right now, they seem to be only a short cut to killing your enemy.


this is bad news for the BB team...a solid blow to the game and its new rule matrix...we are left with two choices...leave the game as third addition, or change fourth addition to work better. though the "lazy" side of me says "fuck it...stick with the old rules...save time...save energy" the lazy side never wins..so im left with option B...."re-tweek the rules...fix the mistakes....move towards a better 4th addition system"

ill have to figure out how to streamline the combat system....the damage is far too quick and far too deadly....yes, BB is a deadly game...but more then half of the FCOs are dieing in one-two-shots...that leaves not alot of battle time..just quick one shots that either kill or dont....

i hope to fix this with the help of the team within the next week....it will be alot of work....but BB has been a never-ending hunt for perfection, and we refuse to settle for either third addition rules, or a broken combat system.

peace
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Sifolis
Member

Posts: 53


« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2005, 09:37:58 AM »

ok...no sleep, a bunch of bad-food, 2 blunts and a room full of brainstorming....and we have hopfully "fixed" the oversight.

even better, it only took a minor adjustment to two major technolgies that deal with damage, and a new starting Bloodshed increase.

the damage system wasnt the problem, a small miscalculation on "how much" damage would be taken per round, was.

so...with a lil trouble, and alot of typing...we have fixed the numbers and intend on play testing this weekend.

since i doubt anyone reads this or cares more then to "hate" the thred...i wont watse any time getting deeper into the problems and how we hope to have fixed them.

peace
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erithromycin
Member

Posts: 159


« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2005, 06:04:39 AM »

Sifolis, I know this might seem like an odd question, but, other than publishing, what's the main goal of the 4th edition of Blood Bounty?

Are you seeking to streamline it? Simplify it? What are the the things you're trying to fix? If you can give us an idea about that, we can give you some ideas.

From what I can see there was an issue with how quickly players were able to kill folk in combat, is that right? So you've changed some numbers with regards to a particular weapon system, and changed character's ability to withstand damage (that's what Bloodshed does, isn't it? I've been out of the country and away from the internet for a while, so I'm probably not as clear as I should be), and that's slowed it down.

Why was this important?
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my name is drew

"I wouldn't be satisfied with a roleplaying  session if I wasn't turned into a turkey or something" - A
Sifolis
Member

Posts: 53


« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2005, 10:26:12 AM »

The main goal is to see the book in a finished, professional form, ready for publish yes.

whats with the tweeking, and why is it important to me and the team?

well, the third addition played smoothly, and resolved much of the 2nd addition problems....the problem with 3rd-E was there was too much math. people had to work with large numbers to calculate damage and skills and what not...so this eddition is all about turning those numbers into small numbers....less math, easyer math etc. why? cus the game's goal is to be easy for anyone to play...to get the players who dont normally play RPGs playing BB. if D&D is a fine meal, then see BB as fast food thats just bad for you.

the 3rd-e was great....but the math was a little bit too much.,...not enough to kill you..but too much for your average stoner or raver....we are trying to get single-to-double-digit simple math to be the back bone of the game, while still keeping the indepth play and fun battle systems ....

the recent play tests are having battles that last 1-3 rounds....usually killing a opponent within 1-2 hits....too fast....not enough battle time to really use or benefit from some of the cool in-battle functions that the 3-e was really all about.  by bringing numbers down so low, things have sped up greatly...some math is far better then the old system..infact, alot of it is...but people died too quickly...."who cares if i have in-battle medical skills? when i get to you, your dead, and its too late"

the new Bloodshed and armor equasions are a little higher now....we made the mistake of bringing those numbers too low...in turn, losing alot of the battle-play options and back-and-forth fun of battle.....so, the next play test will prolly be this week, we will see if this fixes it.

im not the "number guy" of the group....i dnt understand bell-curves and %-rates as much as my co-creators. so they fixed it mostly based on the group's advice and our understanding of what 3rd-e was and what made it great....

i dunno if that makes sense. but it does to us.

anyway....ty for offering help and posting in this crappy thred....
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