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275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4285 Members Latest Member: - Jason DAngelo Most online today: 166 - most online ever: 565 (October 17, 2020, 02:08:06 PM)
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Author Topic: return to the island of misfit games  (Read 5844 times)
Clinton R. Nixon
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Posts: 2624


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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2002, 09:07:55 AM »

Jared,

I totally agreed on the term "one-shot."

The Resource Library fills the need of your proposed "New Games" forum. Unfortunately, not everyone uses it.
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Clinton R. Nixon
CRN Games
Zak Arntson
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Posts: 839


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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2002, 10:09:43 AM »

Second the striking of one-shot. Single-session is much more apt.
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Ron Edwards
Global Moderator
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2002, 10:11:20 AM »

Jared,

I totally agree about both "one-shot" and "beer and pretzels."

Best,
Ron
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Gordon C. Landis
Member

Posts: 1024

I am Custom-Built Games


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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2002, 11:29:20 AM »

Quote from: Ron Edwards
One thing I want to emphasize is that there is no ideal pace to effective design and play.

and
Quote from: Ron Edwards
Another thing ... What bugs me a bit is the idea that if a person puts a game design up for discussion or play, and if it doesn't "bite" real fast, then the person says, "Oh, poop," and ... stops.

and
Quote from: Zak
I'll repeat Ron & Clinton, because it's so damn important: The responsibility for a game lies with the designer, not the Forge.

Quotes 1 and 3 are related to conclusions I came to personally quite a while back.  I thank Ron for pointing out the first, and can't agree with Zak enough about the third.  Anyone who thinks the responsibility for one of their games lies with "the Forge" is (I think) falling into one of the traps that Paul is trying to make sure we avoid.

(BTW, this is no way changes the fact that Ron & Clinton might consider the Forge to be failing in one of its' missions if the Forge isn't helping designers as much as they'd like.  I could go on about how failing to grasp this fact has poisoned public policy debate in this country for the last 20+ years . . . )

Quote 2 -I haven't gotten much feedback on the ideas I've posted here (though I appreciate what I have gotten, and would expect no more given how sketchy my posts have been).  But I haven't stopped.  I assume there are others out there in the same boat.  I agree the phenomena exists to some degree, and I can understand even a little bit of it would bug the HELL out of Ron.  I'd call it another behavior that Paul's post wants to hold up in our face, have us get disgusted, and NOT do anymore.

But for what it's worth, there's at least one guy out here who's bucking that trend.  And like I said, I doubt it's just one.

Gordon
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Ring Kichard
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Posts: 58


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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2002, 07:51:20 PM »

It's late, I'm tired, but I must object.

There are some games that are casual, funny, short games. "One shot" describes these games well. These are games - I contend - the forge should not ignore or shun.

I think rather than quit using the words altogether, we should use them more selectively.
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Richard Daly, who asks, "What should people living in glass houses do?"
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Sand Mechanics summary, comments welcome.
Mike Holmes
Acts of Evil Playtesters
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Posts: 10459


« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2002, 05:17:06 AM »

Quote from: Ring Kichard
I think rather than quit using the words altogether, we should use them more selectively.


Well said. There are no bad words only bad use of words.

Mike
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Ron Edwards
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« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2002, 06:14:37 PM »

Hey,

OK, Richard, I buy that. I guess the most fair thing to say is that a single session game may or may not be a "one-shot," and it certainly doesn't have to be. How's that?

Best,
Ron
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greyorm
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Posts: 2233

My name is Raven.


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« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2002, 12:07:46 AM »

Quote from: Clinton R Nixon
It's the key - play, play, play some more, and then play. Play your own games - for 5-10 sessions straight.

Ok, here's the crux of the issue, then: How?

It's all fine and dandy for one person to sit comfortably and state that another person should just do such-and-such to fix their problem and fail to explain exactly HOW to do such-and-such.

As an all-too-common example:
"I don't have any money."
"Get a job."

The answer seems simple enough, correct?
Well, as any of you know who have been out of work before, it ain't that simple.

Here's another:
"I'm depressed."
"Just smile and cheer up!"

As any mental health professional will tell you, that seemingly-simple and straight-forward/obvious answer is in fact the worst possible and most unhelpful response one can give.

I feel a little like this now. "Just play" is that straightforward/obvious/simple answer that just doesn't work.  It implies a sort of stupidity or lack of thought on the part of the individual with the problem.  The response to such a solution is simply, "No shit, Sherlock."

Thus, HOW?
Ron, how do you do it?
Clinton, how about you?
Anyone else with families (children) and jobs who manages to do so?
Where do you get other gamers if there are none locally?  Or rather, how do you create them?

I want to hear about it.  What are your solutions...how do you go about "just playing?"  How do you get the other people in your group interested?  (ie: How do you approach them about it?)

I want to hear about it.
I want to see the methodologies, not the solutions.


PS -- let me apologize if any of the above sounds cranky or antagonistic, Clinton, it isn't meant that way; I'm attempting to be as direct as possible.
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Rev. Ravenscrye Grey Daegmorgan
Wild Hunt Studio
Gordon C. Landis
Member

Posts: 1024

I am Custom-Built Games


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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2002, 12:32:33 AM »

Having used the "just play" reponse in another thread, I come read this, and greyorm has a point.  As I have NOT really succeded at the actual play of *indie* games in a significant way, I'm not sure I have a strong answer here.  But I do have two ideas that have helped with DD3e games over the last year or so (warning, they're almost self-contradicting):

1)  Only involve people who are sincerly interested.  You may be tempted to include the guy who say "Eh, I'll give it a try", but he/she will (often) never manage to have the time free, and you'll end up trying to schedule and reschedule around him so much, the game will just die (if it ever gets started).

2)  Pick a time and a schedule you know you have free (barring emergencies), and game then.  No matter how few people show up, play.  Stick to the schedule.  Keep it up.  Good things will happen, I promise.

Afraid that's all I can offer . . .

Gordon
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Lance D. Allen
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Posts: 1962


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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2002, 08:10:14 AM »

I can hopefully offer a little insight on creating gamers.. First, I'll hit up the key points of my anecdote.

1. One friend, whom I would tell the details of my very first Vampire game. Got him interested, it was a subject he could see himself playing, despite the fact that he didn't consider himself in any way a gamer. So he buys V:tDA and drops it in front of me one night, and says "Let's play." So a few weeks later, we play. The game goes on for about 8 sessions until a new girlfriend or two interferes. Game off. The interest is still there, though, so when I eventually pick up 3rd Ed. We're good to play again, a Sabbat game this time, because his favored Clan was Tzimisce. He's got a few friends he'd told about our Dark Ages game, so they're interested. We've got a mutual friend whom we mentioned this to, with a few anecdotes.. he expresses interest. Eventually it kinda... snowballs, and the game is going on several months later, and at one point I had 12 players in the group. (I found it difficult to say no) Only a handful of those players had ever played an RPG before, and only 1 had ever played a White Wolf game. It was also one of the most awesome, interesting and absolutely unpredictable games I've ever played or ran.

So what worked for me? Talk about your experiences, tell it like a story to those who will listen. Those who seem interested, tell them a little more. If they're game, set up a small, possibly one-shot game for 'em. If they enjoy it, they'll tell a few friends. Some of those friends will probably be interested too. Let 'em play. You may have to "kiss a lot of frogs" but go through the effort, weed out the ones who are really interested in keeping up the gaming, and keep 'em happy.

And if you're the guy who got 'em into gaming, chances are they'll play anything you suggest, at least once, so you can get your indie-gaming in, too. Until then, though.. Start out with something that will spark their interest. Once you've got 'em to become gamers, then you can branch out.
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~Lance Allen
Wolves Den Publishing
Eternally Incipient Publisher of Mage Blade, ReCoil and Rats in the Walls
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