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Dogs becoming sorcerers?

Started by zornwil, November 13, 2007, 06:53:57 PM

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Thanks for reminding me.

Um, keep hanging. I'll see if I can answer you tomorrow, but if I can't, it'll be next week. Do remind me again if it gets to be Wednesday and I'm still slacking off.



Well, I can't seem to manage to have both the book and the internet at the same time, so I'll go from memory and your summation, Filip. I hope someone with the book confirms this, not that someone with the book contradicts this and makes me stupid.

Quote from: Filip Luszczyk on January 09, 2008, 10:23:28 PM1. There's a slight ambiguity as far as PC Sorcerers go. Does the PC need to believe in a false doctrine and have a following to be one? Or is it possible to be a Sorcerer by the sheer non-virtue of having a Relationship with a Demon, and both the doctrine and the followers requirements are just standard qualities of NPC Sorcerers in the game?

During play, a PC Dog having a relationship with a demon and asking it for help constitutes corrupt priesthood, which makes the character a sorcerer.

During town creation, an NPC leading at least two followers in a false doctrine constitutes corrupt priesthood, which makes the character a sorcerer.

Those are the rules to follow. There's some interesting theology underlying them, stuff about how a priest, corrupted, is the same as a corrupt priest, but that's awfully particular. Run your game by the rules, not by the theology.

Quote2. Does the PC need to have Relationship with a Demon at four dice in order to function as a Sorcerer? Or are these four dice just the standard quality of NPC Sorcerers in the game (i.e. it's just that their freebie Relationship gets four dice), and having the Relationship at all is enough for the PC?

That's instructions for you to follow, as GM. So yes, it's what you do for NPC sorcerers. But it's not a statement about the gameworld, it's not "all sorcerers have 4-die relationships with demons."

That's a pretty stickly answer. Oh well.

Quote3. Is it legit to add Demonic Influence to any side of a conflict (like NPC rules say) or only to one's own side (as the rules for using Relationships suggest)?

"Your side" just means "your preferred side," so, legit.

Quote4. Can PC Sorcerer become possessed at will (as per the rules for NPC Sorcerers), or is he or she limited to adding Demonic Influence (as per Relationships entry)?

A PC sorcerer can become possessed at will.

Quote5. Can PC become possessed and gain funky powers if he happens to have Relationship with a Demon at less than four dice?

You mean a non-sorcerer? No, a non-sorcerer cannot become possessed at will. However, as above, you don't need a 4-die relationship to be a sorcerer.

QuoteCan PC Sorcerer make other people possessed, or is this ability limited to NPC Sorcerers?

Roll dice or say yes.

Quote7. How making other characters possessed works? Is it possible to just "say yes" and establish the Relationship with a Demon for another character, creating the dice from thin air? Does it require devoting one of Proto-NPC's Relationships as per the rules for possessed people? If so, if there's no free Relationship available, does it require an investment of Free Dice from the GM's pool? If so, can the Sorcerer make another character possessed if the GM has already spent all his Free Dice? Or, maybe a conflict is required, and whoever controls the character to be possessed needs to take the Relationship willingly as Fallout? (Hmm, and a loose thought: what if the player of a PC Sorcerer could spend his available Relationship dice to give NPCs Relationship with a Demon?)

Follow your gut, case by case.

Followup questions welcome, as always.


Filip Luszczyk

Heh, I was just about to PM you with a reminder. No follow up questions for now, thanks for the clarifications!

I was mainly confused by the 4 dice thingy, and during our last game it actually created a problem (i.e. we've been considering whether taking a Relationship with Demon at less than 4 dice would be a viable option for the player should she wanted to roll more big dice and stay in the conflict).

So, as for my AP experience with PC Sorcerers, it doesn't come from canonical DitV, but in our current ninja bunnies game one of the players took the equivalent of a Relationship with Demon and, as above, it became a regularly considered option now. The player in question plays somewhat rarely, and being fascinated by DitV mechanics he seems to experiment with rules usage a lot, which sometimes dictates his character's behavior. However, as of now, each time he called on Demonic Influence, his Raises involved slaughtering some more or less innocent NPCs. He actually seems to actively try to spread the sorrow, and since he's doing it with a total disregard for his character's life, but still manages to survive by sheer luck, he has to live with some pretty interesting emo Fallout now. Also, his bunny's corruption fueled one of the most powerful first aid conflicts I've seen so far, with Rises like the dark power speaking through the character's mouth, saying stuff along the lines of "If you save him now, he's going to continue killing people and it will all be your fault!" If it follows like that, It's highly probable that sooner or later the group will join the dark side or decide to stop his character in a permanent, if a bit painful, manner.

David Artman

So, to recap:
1) A PC Relationship with a demon gives dice if and only if that Relationship is at stake or he is in conflict with that demon (whether or not the PC is possessed during such conflicts is moot).

2) A PC with a Relationship with a demon may become possessed by that demon at will, receiving one funky power for each die and manifesting in some manner that's obvious to others (i.e. other Dogs would immediately think, "He's demon-possessed;" but maybe some NPCs wouldn't).

3) A PC that's demon-possessed will also get a d10 for each die in the demon Relationship, regardless of the die type in that relationship (e.g. a 2d4 Rel with a demon generates 2d10 when possessed).

4) Becoming possessed does not grant the PC the Relationship dice for the demon, only Situation 1 above does so.

5a) A PC may or may not believe that the demon is a demon (i.e. a Dog can be delusional about who's at the other end of the Relationship).

5b) (Add-on follow-up) There are no "angels" in The Faith; or, if there are (due to RAW or group declaration during play) they convey no mechanical benefits solely by virtue of being angels (like demons do with Powers), though they could be a Relationship or even Trait for a Dog.

Are all of those above correct? This matters critically in our current game, which meets again next Wednesday--probably last vanilla session, so I suspect one of our player's character is about to Hulk Out. Then, I think we're going for Banthas....
Thanks, as always, Vincent!
Designer - GLASS, Icehouse Games
Editor - Perfect, Passages


On a side note, can somebody enlighten me as to the meaning of "RAW"?  It is hard, as you can imagine, to do a meaningful term search for that acronym. 
-- Devon

Dreams of Deirdre

Filip Luszczyk

Quote3) A PC that's demon-possessed will also get a d10 for each die in the demon Relationship, regardless of the die type in that relationship (e.g. a 2d4 Rel with a demon generates 2d10 when possessed).

I think you can add the current Demonic Influence, which has nothing to do and is not limited by the number of dice in your Relationship. Technically, it doesn't involve becoming possessed - by the book, you call the help of the Demon and add the dice, along with some supernatural effects.

However, notice that there are possession powers that let you add your Relationship to every physical or social conflict, respectively. If I understand it correctly, these allow you to roll the dice for your Relationship the moment you become possessed at will, or if you're already possessed and the conflict moves to either non-social or social arena, respectively. I guess that as usually, it's not possible to double-tap those Relationship dice, though.


Quote from: devonapple on February 01, 2008, 05:35:52 PM
On a side note, can somebody enlighten me as to the meaning of "RAW"?  It is hard, as you can imagine, to do a meaningful term search for that acronym. 

Rules As Written
- Wilson


Because it's so direct back to my first post, I believe it's okay to resurrect this.  Vincent, I take no umbrage at all if I need to be smacked down -

So in a con game - with some great players, a player did in fact turn to the demons!  I mentioned it as an option as they looked for more power and, of course, knowing their PC is right.....I blame Carl (cdr) for this, actually, as he's prompted re this before, and now I've picked it up!

Anyway, she gave her demon 3d6 and away we went!  She wanted her PC, Jean-Luc, to have more ammo to keep standing up for his ideal that "everyone can be a Dog" (her PC was strong on this kind of egalitarianism, and the setting was the Reign of Terror, as I mentioned just elsewhere, Les Chiens de la Terreur), and I'll just copy/paste her own comments, Stephanie is the NPC the Dogs were facing, and Jean-Luc was on Stephanie's side, against one of the other Dogs with, in the beginning of the Conflict, the third Dog not quite decided:  "Demonic influence had swept in and filled him with doubt about his position on Stephanie as her behavior (and EYES!) got increasingly bizarre, he reached the point where he had to call in the town's demons of self-determination in a last-ditch effort to preserve his ideal of the villagers-as-their-own-dogs-->fight demons with demons!"

The other Dogs let it go (actually, one noticed, the other pooh-poohed literal demons and so denied anyway) as Jean-Luc ended up coming back to their side to save their lives and ended up in solidarity with them.  Too bad it was a con game (Go Play NW in Seattle, awesome con!), would love to see these players go at this for a short campaign!

So anyway, I've seen it now, and can testify. 
- Wilson