MMORPGs; totally alien from P&PRPGs??

[Daniel B]

I don't suppose any one could post an actual list of links to the intros??

I found the links once, but at the time I was looking for "System Does Matter". Yes, I could find them with more wandering or (if I decided to embrace insanity) the search function, but if someone's already got them bookmarked, you'd be doing me a favour.

Dan/Shallow Thoughts

[soundmasterj]

[soundmasterj]

i]like<

[Daniel B]

Oooh, didn't see that little "Articles" link in the top right. Whoopsie.

Don't ALL pieces of fiction have to be somewhat like reality? Otherwise, you're talking realms that are outside our ability to imagine. Pure mathematics deals with spaces of topologies we can't even begin to picture in our heads.

Dan

[soundmasterj]

i]begin to picture it in my head right nowbegin[/i] to picture it in my head right now.

[Moreno R.]

	Logged

Ciao,
Moreno.

(Excuse my errors, English is not my native language. I'm Italian.)

[soundmasterj]

[Caldis]

I have some experience with MMO's but not a lot, for purposes of this post I'll be talking mostly about my experience playing WOW.  Take that as a frame of reference and consider that other games have a notably different play experience.

I think you can use the big model to look at certain aspects of MMO's but the thing you have to remember is that it is dealing with group goals so considering that itch in your head that's getting satisfied by play isnt enough.  What you need to see is how a bunch of people act together overtime.

So wanting to travel and see new scenery isnt a sign of sim in one person but if you have a group that are committed to doing it it can be.  In most mmo's I've played that's not enough to keep anyones interest for long usually there are many more things like in WOW you dont just travel to a new ares for the scenery, you travel to find new quests that keep you interacting with the environment.  The environment usually isnt very challenging and even if you do rush into something a little to tough for you the penalties for dieing are small.   In a lot of areas it's much more efficient to travel with a group so if you bring a group of people together and they are all agreed on exploring this area and doing this bunch of quests you have something approaching functional sim.  There is a built in reward cycle of levelling up, qualifying for new quests and eventually outgrowing an area and being directed to a new one with a whole new set of quests and an environment to explore.

Played differently WoW supports gamism as well.  It's mostly in raiding or the battlegrounds.  Raids are much more challenging and the rewards and cost of failure can be quite a bit higher.  If you are far enough into a raid and you end up with the group getting wiped it often causes people to bail out on the attempt and makes the group miss out on the rare items that you can acquire only in the raid.  The group make up in this style play is usually much more exlusive as well.  Players are chosen based on their ability to play smart and not accidently pull extra enemies to the group.

[Vulpinoid]

I think you can have "role-playing" without a SIS (like in most live games), but you can't have "story now" without one, Without one, everybody play pretty much for himself, there is no "story".

Sorry, but I think this requires more explanation...and even though I admit that this explanation is getting away from the topic of this thread, It's got me intrigued.

I would have considered "Live Roleplaying" without and SIS to be Real Life...it's where we go through the motions of social interaction with the people around us, we commit violence at the risk of repercussions, we strive to advance ourselves, or sacrifice degrees of self-advancement to further the community around us.

Once you step into a "Live Gaming Space", whether that is an MMORPG or physically dressing up in costume, you leave certain real world conventions behind. Suddenly you have access to skills, powers or  setting that is different from your mundane life and thus a realm of shared imagination is born. I would have though that it is the agreement of certain imagination parameters that forms the basis of the SIS. The SIS is born as soon as two or more people agree on an imagination parameter.

Two people get onto a server or LAN and play a game of WoW, and they are playing a role in a world that they've agreed apon. If one player is using a bunch of mods to re-invent their WoW experience into a Middle Earth Paradigm, then suddenly they don't share the same imagination space and the communications become irrelevant. If they both use these mods, then the SIS is re-established.

Two people walk into a room in period costume and start talking to one another, it's just regular talking. If they start putting on accents or referring to historical events as though personally taking part in them, then roleplaying is born and an SIS develops.

From this perspective (and please argue with me if you think it's a skewed view), all roleplaying has an SIS at it's core...

Gamist play seeks to dominate that space (or at least dominate and overpower the other members sharing it).
Simulationist play seeks to explore that space (to identify its boundaries and its differences with the "real world").
Narrativist play seeks to develop stories within the space (to evolve it and to move it in new directions).

Without an SIS, gamist play is just a competition of dice rolls/card draws/one-upmanship, I don't think it's roleplaying at all, because there are no roles being played. Once a role is played and someone else accepts that the person is playing a role, there is an SIS.

Whether the second party accepts to take part in the SIS is another matter entirely.

Just my thoughts.

V

[soundmasterj]

quote]From this perspective (and please argue with me if you think it's a skewed view), all roleplaying has an SIS at it's core...Quote

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

I ran a Forge search on "MMORPG" specifying the GNS, RPG Theory, and Actual Play forums. It revealed a lot more than I was expecting; we've been kicking this issue around since nearly day one.

I was going to winnow through and find all the strongest discussions, especially those which provided link summaries to what had gone before, but this time ... well, I didn't. I invite anyone interested to do that for us.

The Forge search function is actually quite powerful if you specify the right things, especially a key poster's handle when applicable (not the case this time). It's old-school logic, not Google logic, but you can get good at it with practice.

As moderator, I now decree that the rest of us back off and let the thread relax until Dan (Shallow Thoughts) decides what to say and where to go with the topic. The exception is whoever feels like doing the search and research I mentioned, if anyone.

Best, Ron
edited to fix a dumb initial moderation - RE

[Daniel B]

Apparently this wasn't how the terminology wasn't originally intended but SIS suggests, to me, a space "created" when imaginations are shared among more than one person. Granted, if I'd been aware of the glossary first, I wouldn't have made the mistake, but am I wrong in thinking the term is quite misnomer-ish as it is?

If we're going to distinguish between my original interpretation and the concept of an imaginary space created only when each of the imaginations actively have a hand in deciding upon the content of that space or direction of the "story" (ie NOT movies or books, the "Forge-meaning"), then maybe we need a new term. Unfortunately this new term would still leave MMOGs lumped in with P&P's, because, technically, MMOGs involve more than one imagination deciding upon the content of the space and direction of the "story". For example, I construct a newly imagined character and he interacts with the imagined environment. Sometimes I can even build new objects for the space, such as potions or weapons. Granted, my imaginings are channelled within the rules of the game, but they're still products of my imagination. Just look at the names some people give their characters.

Dan

[soundmasterj]

i]every<

[Callan S.]

	Logged

Philosopher Gamer
<meaning></meaning>

[Ron Edwards]

A little bit of aaaarrgh. Callan, my call is that the terms for each Creative Agenda were chosen to express how certain, specific human social urges were realized (in the sense of "brought about") in the medium of an SIS. Using those terms in that way, as proposed, isn't intended to imply that those urges don't exist otherwise or don't find expression otherwise.

I'm beginning to think this thread is turning into GNS 101 and isn't about its original topic at all. Dan (Sh.Th.) - is there any chance you can start a new thread about some actual role-playing that you've actually done, and we can use it as a starting point for discussing what is apparently the real topic - the basic meaning of "Creative Agenda." Maybe, this is what happened, and this is what I think is going on in Big Model terms, or perhaps, this is where I don't grasp how the Big Model makes sense of it.

On the other hand, if there is in fact a specific reason why you want to understand MMORPGs as such, then I have to say that the Big Model is about SIS-based role-playing and nothing else. There may be correspondences, areas of overlap, similarities in agenda, whatever, but if the correspondence is 0% or 100%, it's of no particular interest unless you really want to talk about MMORPGs. I'm sort of getting the idea, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you don't.

Best, Ron