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Author Topic: [DiTV] Jedi in the Vineyard  (Read 6354 times)
Salar
Member

Posts: 9


« on: July 29, 2009, 01:14:12 AM »

Hi all,

Got together with 2 friends last night and ran a game of Jedi in the Vineyard. A jedi master and padawan caught up in the turmoil of the last years of the Mandalorian war. It was the first time I'd run a star wars game using Dogs in the Vineyard, and I think a good time was had by all. One of the players is already looking at running JiTV for his Wednesday night group.

I have always loved the idea of playing in the star wars setting, but have always been put off by mechanic heavy games, even saga edition just seems too OTT, but something like Dogs always seemed a perfect fit. Rules that supported rather than constrained all the crazy-ass jedi-ness and moral uncertainty of being the guy (or gal) that has to sort out an entire planet's problems.

I have read and re-read the forge threads dealing with how to run a SW game using Dogs, and felt there was a lot of over complication going on, so I basically left it as is and I don't think the game suffered for it. The one major changes that was made was that...

    * All Jedi must take relationships with "The Force" as well as "The Dark Side", with The Dark Side getting a free 1d4 and any use of the Dark Side automatically producing fallout dice. All jedi have access to the Dark Side, its free to use, but its gonna cost.
    * Force powers are non defined, you have the dice for relationships with both light and dark sides, simply describe what you're doing!

Otherwise, its pretty much vanilla Dogs.

The lads jumped in straight away and grokked the conflict system very quickly making good use of the freedom available when it comes to force powers. There was one scene with jedi versus sith with both leaping hundreds of feet around a vast arena, lightsabers twirling and clashing in vivid bursts of light before the sith is sliced in two high above watching jedi masters (it was part of initiation at the end of character generation).

The game centered around murder, inter-species riots, the drug trade and corporate greed in a strategically important mining complex in the outer rim towards the end of the Mandalorian war. The lads were able to do a couple of conflicts with one of the players jedi backing out of a conflict with the wife of a murdered miner when she threw "You'll be gone tomorrow, I have to live here" in his face and he realised his demands for information could cause more damage than help.

We're getting together in a couple of weeks to continue the game as the 2 jedi are descending deep into the mining complex in search of Jarath the Hutt...

John
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Salar
Member

Posts: 9


« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2009, 09:58:46 AM »

Hi all,
The main purpose of the above post was firstly to say that DiTV has not disappointed...again. I also wanted to post the basic changes I've made to DiTV to play Jedi as well as see something put together that makes it easier to play rather than trawl the forum. Saying that some of the other threads have been very useful, and you will notice I have stolen stuff from them verbatim. I apologise for not attributing them, but most of the original threads are...

http://indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=13410.0
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=18977.0
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=14311.0
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=19617.0
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=17263.0

We're playing in the Old Republic in the period towards the end of the Mandelorian War when a largely decentralized Jedi order is slowly coming out of isolation to aid the Republic. Not all support is so freely given and there are schisms within the order as to whether take up arms or not. The dark Side is also lurking beyond the fringes of Galactic space but there presence can be felt, manipulating and subverting behind the scenes. The jedi are still guardians of peace in the Republic, but there is discord amongst the order.

1: Character Generation.
Use the normal character generation process but add the following...

1.1     Species

1.1.1      Add a couple of traits to describe elements of that species that interest you.
1.1.1.1     We've just been reading the introductory blurb from the saga setting book 'Knights of the Old Republic" about each species and making traits out of them.

1.2     Traits

1.2.1     Add "I am a Jedi" or something similar.
1.2.2     Add the trait "Attuned to the Force" - advance it as per normal, but there must be a minimum of 1d4 at start of play.
1.2.3     Add the trait "_____________ the Dark Side" - This starts with a free 1d4 and may be advanced.
1.2.3.1     Add something like "wary of...", "tempted by...", "Feels the draw of..." etc.
1.2.3.2     Advancement of the Dark Side trait shows a deeper knowledge of the Dark Side while advancement of a Relationship with the Dark Side shows how far down the path of Darkness the player has taken his character.

1.3     Relationships

1.3.1     Add a Relationship to the Light Side of the Force. There must be a minimum of 1d4.
1.3.2     A Relationship to the Dark Side can be added at character generation.

1.4     Belongings

1.4.1     Each Jedi begins with a lightsaber that they made themselves - describe it and assign dice as per the normal Things rule.
1.4.1.1     It (like blasters) gains the +1d4 bonus.
1.4.2     At least one of the group should have a starship, just name it for now until I can think how to do starship combat.

1.5     Accomplishment is run as normal.

2: Conflict & Resolution
...is unchanged except for the following additions.

2.1     Using the Force<Fallout

2.2.1     Normal Fallout rules are used with the following hierarchy of  Fallout dice.
2.2.1.1     Just Talking d4 / Physical but not fighting d6 / Fighting without blasters or lightsabers d8 / Fighting with blasters or lightsabers d10

2.3     Dark Side Fallout

2.3.1     Any conflict in which a jedi brought dark side dice into play must roll for Dark Side Fallout at the conclusion of the conflict. This is as well as any normal Fallout received throughout the conflict.
2.3.2     Roll all the Dark Side trait dice used in that conflict as well either 1d4, 1d6, 1d8 or 1d10 from the Fallout hierarchy above.   
2.3.3     The results are treated the same as normal Fallout, however if any 1s are rolled, a slightly different Experience procedure is followed.
2.3.3.1     No experience from the Experience chart is chosen, instead, the GM should ask something along the lines of..."Will you start your journey down the Dark Side?", or "Will you continue along the Dark path?", or even "Will you succumb to the Dark Side and become Sith?"
2.3.3.2     Should the player say "Yes", the characters relationship with the Dark Side changes. Either add 1d or change the die type to a larger die.
2.3.3.3     Should the player say "No", launch an immediate conflict based around the question asked.
2.3.3.4     This conflict can be played as an internal dialogue with the GM tempting the character to the Dark Side, while the jedi seeks to stay true to the path of light.
2.3.3.5     The conflict is run as normal, with the player having access to dice from her Relationship with the Light Side and the GM the Dark Side Relationship dice as well as the Dark Side Influence dice.
2.3.3.6     Should the conflict be lost by the jedi, choose from the 2 options in 2.3.3.2.
2.3.3.7     There is normal Fallout from this conflict, but not dark Side Fallout.

2.4     Ceremony is not used.

2.5     Demonic Influence changes to Dark Side Influence but is used in the same manner.

2.5.1    The following hierachy of Dark Side Influence is used: Prejudice 1d10 / Injustice 2d10 / Violence 3d10 / Dark Side 4d10 / Dark Dominion 5d10

3.0     Creating Towns becomes Creating Planets.

3.1     The following manifestations of "what's wrong" are used, but follow the same procedure from the book.

3.1a     Someone in the populace begins to fear.
3.1b     Fear, unchecked, manifests as prejudice, either by or toward the fearful individual.

3.2a     Prejudice creates opportunities for anger, either from being the object of prejudice or from the prejudiced having a false sense of entitlement.
3.2b     Anger manifests as injustice, committed by the angry or in outrage against someone else's display of anger.

3.3a     Injustice creates opportunities for hatred, prompted by the unjust acts of others or by one's own unjust acts against others.
3.3b     Hatred manifests as acts of violence, perpetrated against objects of one's hate, or in retaliation against other violence. At this level, people may be seduced to the dark side by Dark Jedi already in existence.

3.4a     Violence, of course, leads to suffering.
3.4b     Suffering creates opportunities for the Dark Side, tempting one either by the power to cause more suffering or power to make the suffering stop. At this level, Dark Jedi may come into being on their own.

3.5     The Dark Side then vies for Dark Dominion, which basically means the Dark Jedi are in control of the community.

4.0     Between Towns is unchanged.

John


         

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Narmical
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Posts: 21

Mitch "Narmical" Morris


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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2009, 06:50:02 AM »

I realize this may be a little late but I just wanted to throw my ideas in.
You mentioned that you want the use of the dark side of the force to be "A big deal". Well i have a very good idea.

My suggestion would be to change the escalation levels as follows.

Talking
Physical
Violence (Fists, Blasters & Lightsabres)
Dark Side

This change would also necessitate that every jedi have a relationship with the dark side of the force.

The intent of the escalation system in the original Dogs is two fold, one to temp or force the players into violence and to raise situations like "do i relay want to shoot this pregnant woman to get my way".
Also as the Dark Side would be the highest escalation it would produce d10 fall out. Which is perfict. Using the darkside would be the most powerfull and most dangerous way of solving a problem! And would be the only way for a jedi to die outright.

This temptation / moral problems exactly mirrors the place that the dark side of the force fills in the star wars mythos. Lets imagine this situation, The jedi is fighting someone, he has escalated from talking though physical and is now at violence. Because of this, all of his attribute dice have already been rolled.
He is out of dice, his opponent is a Sith trying to destroy thousands of innocent lives. The only way to get more dice now, is to escalate to the dark side and roll your Dark Side relationship dice.

The question is, should you give and let the Sith kill thousands of innocents? or fall to the temptation of the dark side risking d10 fallout?

Imagine this similar situation, You are in a conflict that has started at talking and escalated to physical. At this point, if you escalate to dark side, skipping violence, you will roll a fist full of dice. This has a dynamic of the quick power that the dark side is portrayed as having in the mythology.

Any thoughts?
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lumpley
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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2009, 07:10:17 AM »

Narmical, that's astute.

-Vincent
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watergoesred
Member

Posts: 12


« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2009, 08:40:22 PM »

I like your observations too, but I want to clarify two things.

The jedi is fighting someone, he has escalated from talking though physical and is now at violence. Because of this, all of his attribute dice have already been rolled. He is out of dice, his opponent is a Sith trying to destroy thousands of innocent lives. The only way to get more dice now, is to escalate to the dark side and roll your Dark Side relationship dice.
Sounds like you're calling on the Dark Side as a trait. Typically, you can only bring relationship dice in to a conflict if the other in the relationship is opposing you or if the relationship itself is at stake.

That is, unless a relationship with the Dark side is treated like a relationship with a Demon. That would grant access to the situation's Dark Influence dice (Demonic influence), along with the ability to be Possessed, the manifestation of dark changes to appearance and the access to Dark powers (Cunning, Ferocity, Preservation, & Viciousness).

If you don't want all that (demonic) baggage, I'd just make the Dark Side, or even individual Force powers, traits or belongings that are narrated into the see or raise and bring their own dice, just like guns do with Dogs.

The question is, should you give and let the Sith kill thousands of innocents? or fall to the temptation of the dark side risking d10 fallout?
... on their Sith opponent?

I get the impression that you're suggesting the Jedi PC is risking taking d10 fallout themselves by escalating to the Dark Side, which is not correct. Of course, there is the risk that the Sith will respond in kind and the Jedi will suffer fallout appropriate to the details of the Sith's raises; but the Sith opponent will likely resort to the Dark Side irrespective of whether the Jedi PC does or not.

If you did want the Force user to take Fallout themselves directly from using the Force, follow Vincent's idea for adding "magic" abilities: the Force adds a help die to a See or Raise, at the cost of the Force user taking Fallout for using the Force. The size of the Fallout could be appropriate to the details of the See or Raise, or could be listed next to the Force power's helping die.
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oli
Narmical
Member

Posts: 21

Mitch "Narmical" Morris


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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2009, 01:57:45 PM »

On the dark side as trait vs dark side as relationship, certianly it would be apropreate to use the deamon rules. Maping those rules onto the source material, the emoror would have at least one physical manifistation.

I do think using a relationship is more apropreat in this case, even if you don't use the full blown deamon rules all the time. According to the movies, and to the offical RPGs calling on the dark side of the foce puts your relationship to the force as part of the conflict. The idea is presented that the more you give in, the more you want to  give in the future.

It dawns on me that the dark side sits somewhere in beween the concepts of a relationship with a sin, and a relationship with a deamon.

Quote
Of course, there is the risk that the Sith will respond in kind and the Jedi will suffer fallout appropriate to the details of the Sith's raises; but the Sith opponent will likely resort to the Dark Side irrespective of whether the Jedi PC does or not.

I was talking about the situation where the sith escalates in response. The GMing rules of dogs instruct one to push the players to escalate, to to have the gm do the escalating himself.  Although it may be appropriate to have the sith jump directly to using the dark side.in a particular situation, i think its far more interesting and far more in the spirt of the game, to alow the conflict to escalate naturally.
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mike_the_pirate
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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2009, 09:00:09 PM »

I'm impressed with the astute quality of narmical's suggestion. That's why he's my co-host.
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henebry
Member

Posts: 16


« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2010, 12:47:57 PM »

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Narmical
Member

Posts: 21

Mitch "Narmical" Morris


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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2010, 03:47:05 PM »

Gareth_Lazelle
Member

Posts: 7


« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2010, 07:12:50 AM »

Maybe dark-side fallout dice (for the opposition - not you) could be determined in a similar way to rituals? That is, the fallout depends upon the specific action taken,

So perhaps...
Using force-telekineses to hurl objects at your foe: D6 (i.e.: equiv. to physical fallout)
Using force-lightening to attack your foe: D10 (or even D12 perhaps?)
etc... etc...

I like the idea of using a stat again at the cost of taking dark-side fallout with a bunch of extra dice, you'll need to be careful that the cost doesn't reduce the temptation for a player to use the powers too much though! And maybe also reduce the ability of dark side fallout to wound (maybe roll it as a separate pool, with its own experience/fallout options?)
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Gareth_Lazelle
Member

Posts: 7


« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2010, 07:28:06 AM »

1.4.2     At least one of the group should have a starship, just name it for now until I can think how to do starship combat.
How about something like this as a basis (might also work for any vehicular combat):

All vehicles have a bunch of traits with a single numerical score (or dice?), whenever you try to perform the noted action your first die is gained from the vehicle and is of the value noted, as well as a "crew rating" reflecting the support provided by having a crew (added in the same way the mob-rules work perhaps),

So perhaps a X-wing might have the following:

X-Wing
Evade Anti-fighter fire: 6 (or 1D8?)
Attack Fighter: 6 (or 1D8?)
Attack Starship: 2 (or 1D4?)

And a Nebulon-B frigate:
Shields 6
Attack Fighter: 2
Attack Starship: 6
Crew: +4d

Imperial Star Destroyer
Shields: 8
Attack Fighter: 4
Attack Starship: 8
Crew: +6d

So your X-wing pilot performing a raise might raise by declaring an attack on the frigate, pushing forwards one dice and using the fighters "Attack Fighter: 6" trait as the second dice with a score of six (or rolling 1D8, or whatever).

The frigates captain (who rolled four extra D6 at the start of the combat reflecting the frigates crew) pushes forwards a dice as well as using the frigates shield rating of 6 to withstand the attack.

I'm in two minds as to whether the "bonus dice" should require you to also discard a dice or not - discarding a dice might help with figuring out turned blows?

Groups of fighters could use some variation on the mob rules to improve their stats?
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henebry
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Posts: 16


« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2010, 01:19:38 PM »

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Gareth_Lazelle
Member

Posts: 7


« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2010, 11:07:02 PM »

Some very neat ideas - I like the suggested arena system, and it's much more streamlined than my suggestions above,

I am slightly concerned that (other than the single strength stat) all ships are functionally identical? Would it be better to give the ships all four stats and then allow characters to bring in traits applicable to their position (i.e.: piloting if they are the pilot, gunnery if they are the gunner, repairs if they are on damage control, etc)?
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henebry
Member

Posts: 16


« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2010, 09:54:22 AM »

You could give ships their own stats, and then allow players to complement those stats with their own stats. I tend to be leery of making big changes to a working game system, so I only made the single change (Ship Strength in place of Body) because using a character's Body stat in a ship-to-ship dogfight seemed too blatantly laughable.

My guess is that this doesn't throw off game balance too much because in the core game Body is actually better than the other stats (it keeps you alive when you have a 12+ Fallout roll). So long as ship-to-ship combat is an occasionial event, replacing characters' Body with the ship's Str functions to rebalance the value of the various stats.

The fundamental problem here is that Vincent's game takes the spotlight off of Things and puts it on people. Another game designer working up a Western might give far more prominence to guns and horsebreeding. Vincent allows players to pump flavor in (if they want) with narrativist descriptions of their guns and horses, but gives such detail no mechanical value. It's just Thing or Big Thing or Really Nice Thing or Crap Thing.

The Star Wars movies put a spotlight on people too, but fanboy culture tends to fetishize the stuff that people carry: Dooku's lightsaber, or Han's blaster, or (even more) Luke's X-Wing and the Millenium Falcon.

My solution to this "problem" is severalfold:
  • I've created little cards for Things, providing a picture as well as some descriptive text and the Thing's dice. This provides an outlet for the fetishist in all of us. We get a card with a picture! (I'd be willing to share these, if there's a file upload feature on this forum)
  • I've increased the range of dice for things, so that some things (especially ships) get 3d6 or even 3d8 Thing dice.
  • I've given some things special powers, using the rules that Vincent posted here for magic some time back (and referenced just above by watergoesred). For instance, the Alpha-3 V-Wing fighter has 2d8 Thing dice, but can also take a Strafing Run, rolling in +1d10 on that See or Raise (this functions like a helper die) at the cost of 1d8 Fallout.

If you want further differentiation, you can have different ships get different Ship Strength stats. You take it a step further and give ships 4 different Stats, allowing characters to augment those stats with their stats. The danger is that you're creating an elaborate add-on system, changing the balance and the flavor of the game system in ways that are hard to predict. So I decided to treat ships as Vincent treated horses, as a Thing that gives a character a slight advantage.

One last thing: the more important that gear gets, the more important that gear acquisition be balanced in some way. Gear is left unbalanced in Dogs. You get a pool of dice to assign to Stats, Traits and Relationships, but you get exactly as much or as little gear as you want, with the caveat that everyone agrees its reasonable that your character is lugging all that gear around. That's a powerful gesture on Vincent's part, but it seemed to me insufficient to counter the allure of the shiny, high-tech gear of the SW universe, especially since I was adding dice and special powers to certain gear.

My solution was to create a rudimentary economy. Jedi start with 6 credits worth of gear, non-Jedi with 8, and Senators with 9. (Jedi get less to balance the fact that Jedi can get access to their Passion stat a second time by playing footsie with the Dark Side.) Each credit buys roughly one "die," so a big high quality blaster (2d8) costs 2 credits, and so does an Alpha-3 V-Wing. Special powers like the V-Wing's Strafing Run don't cost extra because (I figure) the cost is borne in the form of fallout when you use the power. Yes, I realize that a 2d8 big blaster is a better deal than a 2d6 pistol-sized blaster (they both cost just 2 credits), but I didn't want to get into an elaborate purchasing system. I would have preferred to leave it simple, as it was left in the original game.
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