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Author Topic: [IaWA] What is the scope of resolution  (Read 6773 times)
RPL
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Posts: 61


« on: February 19, 2010, 02:10:38 AM »

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Noclue
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2010, 08:57:03 AM »

Assuming the demon has an advantage die and hasn't knocked everyone out of the conflict in the first round. The other characters can still save the ring in their narration. The demon narrates the attempt to destroy the ring, but its provisional until the other characters act. They may decide to let the ring melt and just stab the demon, in which case the ring is slag.They may try to throw a knife and knock the ring out of the demons grasp before he eats it. There may be negotiation. It's not much different from saying "I steal the ring" and having the other characters go "Oh no you don't!"
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James R.
way
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2010, 09:33:49 AM »

As far as I understand it is not the winner who narrates an outcome, it is the answerer.
Say the demon('s player) wins initiative first round and narrates that he devours the ring. The answerer can narrate the outcome, can deny the devouring or accept it, it's his call, irrespective of the dice results. He has to put the challenger in an advantageous position, generally speaking, but the specific fact whether the ring is eaten or not is up to the answerer.
The third round is a bit different, the answerer must more or less accept the action in full, however there is still some room to be "tactical" there.
However, if the demon was the answerer and he won, it is perfectly legal for him to devour the ring and the others must accept it.

It was quite shocking to me at first, and some players in my groups still don't get it, because it seems that the demon totally "won", and destroyed the game by resolving the story at the very first round of the very first conflict. One has to cope with this and go on from here. The best interest are not the story or not the goals to achieve, the are a starting point for the story. If it is solved in the very first 10 minutes, so be it. Go forward!

I prefer to see best interests as declarations from the players: I would like to see a story that incorporates my character doing this and that. It's not something to measure the story or the characters' achievements against.

Hope this helps,
way
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Brand_Robins
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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2010, 10:13:03 PM »

So, IMO, sure the demon can eat the ring. Why not?

But then the next person gets narration can narrate prying the jaws open. Or going to gut the demon to get it out of the belly. Or whatever. And so it can go until the conflict gets resolved.

IAWA doesn't limit resolution to the issue that started the conflict. You can totally resolve the thing that started the fight in the first round. The question is what happens then?

There are a couple of issues here that help make this work.

1) Sometimes its best to keep it about the actual action rather than the meta-action. That is to say, the demon was eating the ring. That's the action. The "and its destroyed, poof, like that" is the meta-action. We know the demon can eat the ring, but is it actually going to be that easy to destroy it? Maybe. But maybe not. After all, other folks have more narration to come. They can't undo the eating maybe, but they might find out the ring wasn't so much destroyed as just now in the demon's gut. (More about this in #3.)

2) Actions that change the playing field can make a game very dynamic. I've had games where a conflict started over someone trying to kiss someone else, the kiss happened in the first narration, and at the end of the series of conflicts that followed there were dead bodies, a burning city, and a decade long chase that ended in someone being mutilated. If you keep the whole conflict about what happens to the ring here and now it can be fun, but it can also strangle the possibilities. I've often found its best to just run with it, let the conflict go where it goes. (More about this in number 3 too.)

3) In combination with 1 and 2, I've found that final, irreversible actions tend to get you spanked. At the point at which you narrate destroying the ring such that others believe you've really done it and don't want to undo or counter the previous narration you also hit the point where the other characters probably have no reason not to kill you dead. Maybe they gut you to search your corpse for the ring. Maybe they just kill you because you destroyed their symbol of rulership then make a new symbol of rulership out of your skull. (Cause really, the ring is less the point than the symbol of leadership, right?)

I've had a lot of first games of IAWA where someone destroys the ring. They're then shocked when it comes time to negotiate consequences and no one is interested. After all, it isn't like you can give the ring back, you destroyed it. So if that's what they really cared about then you've got nothing to give up to keep them from killing the fuck out of you if the dice go bad.

A recent example of this was a stealth challenge, in which one character was trying to sneak past another to kill someone else. In the first or second narration round, the guard just said, "Yea, I totally spot you and start screaming for help." At which point the other player said, "Well shit, now I'm gonna have to kill you dead." Next game we had another stealth test, and the character being snuck past didn't ever spot and track the sneaker in a conclusive way, and so at the end was able to negotiate for a "I didn't see you, you just get past, please don't injure me" ending.

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- Brand Robins
RPL
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Posts: 61


« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2010, 06:01:16 AM »

quote=way]However, if the demon was the answerer and he won, it is perfectly legal for him to devour the ring and the others must accept it.
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Brand_Robins
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2010, 11:11:22 AM »

Sounds pretty good to me.

The thing that starts the conflict is just what starts it. Where it ends no one knows!
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- Brand Robins
stefoid
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2010, 02:51:40 PM »

Hmm, I dont get these replies.  My reading says:

  • at the end of round 1 or 2, either: someone wins outright, the looser of the round can attempt to negotiate, or the conflict continues with someone at an advantage
  • at the end of the third round: someone wins outright
  • when someone wins, you exhaust, injure or negotiate

Maybe the rules are incomplete, but it seems to me that the looser doesn't ever have to concede that the ring is eaten -- they can insist that they themselves are exhausted or injured (winner chooses which) as an alternative.  It just depends on how badly they want the ring to remain uneaten.  go to page 18.

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jburneko
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2010, 03:40:42 PM »

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stefoid
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2010, 05:05:25 PM »

Hmm, maybe you are right in that it does also say in the example on page 15 :  (emphasis mine)

"My answer:
The third round is different from the first two. ?e
middle drops out of the outcomes. Now, If I match
or beat your roll, Mekha and I win absolutely; if my
roll falls short, you and Amek win absolutely. No
series of rolls goes past the third round.
I roll my dice, including the advantage die. I roll ...
crap. A 2+5=7 and a 1.
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lumpley
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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2010, 08:40:13 PM »

RPL: You're good with the answers so far? I am, I'm diggin' em.

Oh but everybody, one point nobody's said: supposing that the ring isn't on anybody's sheet as a particular strength, it belongs to the GM. The demon can swallow it, but the GM gets to decide whether it's destroyed thereby. The GM can even make it up as a quick NPC and roll dice on its behalf against the demon, if that's what's called for.

Stefoid: "More or less in full" is crucial. As loser, you can sacrifice yourself to keep the ring only if you're able to keep hold of the ring while admitting the demon's action more or less in full. I don't guarantee that you'll be able to, and you can't insist that you can or should be able to; you just have to actually be able to do it. At the end of the last answer of the action sequence, wherever the ring is, that's where it will be at the beginning of negotiation. If nobody negotiates otherwise, that's still where it will be at the beginning of subsequent free play. Of course, right? Nothing by default un-swallows that ring; only a challenge, answer, or negotiation can do it.

So, the demon swallows the ring as its last challenge. Because of circumstances, momentum, and fictional details, the hobbit can't admit the demon's action but yet keep hold of the ring, right? Going into negotiation, the ring is in the demon's stomach and the demon's player holds the stick, so yeah, the demon keeps the ring AND gets to exhaust or injure the hobbit. Sucks for the hobbit.

-Vincent
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stefoid
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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2010, 08:54:07 PM »

I get it.

Kind of related to this.  when I initially interpreted the rules as the looser can insist on something not happening by sacrificing, I thought it was kind of cool (but probably not cool in other ways that might render the game unworkable, probably).

However, did you consider making the conflict escalate-able (is that a word?) something like diTV although I havent played that game for real.  Like instead of automatically loosing two forms, something like each conflict starts with one form at risk and conflict round loosers either have to drop out, take the form loss or negotiate immedaitely OR to stay in the contest for the next round, they have to up their ante and risk additional form losses (up to a maximum of 3).  (and get rid of the 'double me and contest ends on this round'  rule.)
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stefoid
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2010, 08:54:51 PM »

sorry, instead of 'automatically loosing two forms' I meant automatically risking
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RPL
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Posts: 61


« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2010, 07:59:38 AM »

quote=lumpley] Going into negotiation, the ring is in the demon's stomach and the demon's player holds the stick, so yeah, the demon keeps the ring AND gets to exhaust or injure the hobbit. Sucks for the hobbit.Quote from: jburneko
If the ring was all you cared about then stop here.  In fact you're also done with Negotiation.  You've lost your hand and the ring is swallowed.  If that's all anyone cared about it's over and decided.Quote from: jburneko
This, here, is what is causing the confusion.  The DP hasn't given us enough information to use the mechanics correctly.  WHAT exactly is he doing it to "go get it"?  It's at this point BEFORE the die roll that he has to say, "I bite your hand off and swallow the ring."Quote from: jburneko
If the ring was all you cared about then stop here.  In fact you're also done with Negotiation.  You've lost your hand and the ring is swallowed.  If that's all anyone cared about it's over and decided.Quote from: jburneko
This, here, is what is causing the confusion.  The DP hasn't given us enough information to use the mechanics correctly.  WHAT exactly is he doing it to "go get it"?  It's at this point BEFORE the die roll that he has to say, "I bite your hand off and swallow the ring."
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stefoid
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« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2010, 03:59:08 PM »

I get it.

Kind of related to this.  when I initially interpreted the rules as the looser can insist on something not happening by sacrificing, I thought it was kind of cool (but probably not cool in other ways that might render the game unworkable, probably).

However, did you consider making the conflict escalate-able (is that a word?) something like diTV although I havent played that game for real.  Like instead of automatically loosing two forms, something like each conflict starts with one form at risk and conflict round loosers either have to drop out, take the form loss or negotiate immedaitely OR to stay in the contest for the next round, they have to up their ante and risk additional form losses (up to a maximum of 3).  (and get rid of the 'double me and contest ends on this round'  rule.)

no love for this idea?
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JoeBeason
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« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2010, 12:58:58 PM »

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