[Circle of Hands] Spells

[Moreno R.]

I was reading the spell list, and I saw some interesting options. I would like to know these interpretations are correct (because if they are, I am going to use them Thursday...)

1) Vampirize (p): Target person loses 1d6 Brawn as a physical injury and the caster gains this amount for the duration of the spell. If lost through injury or spent to cast magic or for anything else, it does not recover. This spell costs no Brawn unless it is pumped.

Does this mean that I can cast it, get 1d6 brawn, use it to pump brawn to act right again, cast it, get 1d6 brawn, use it to pump brawn to act right again, cast it, get 1d6 brawn, use it to pump brawn to act right again, etc....  without spending the Brawn of my character?

2) What the PC cast Vampirize as an enchantment on himself? He can get a permanent increase in brawn using only stolen Brawn?

3) Sacrifice (i): The caster must kill a person or beast to cast this spell. The victim's Brawn is stored as per Store Power, usable by the caster except for black magic rather than white. The stored Brawn may be used for an enchantment, in which case the caster suffers no permanent B loss.

So, sacrificing his own horse gets quickly 9 points of Brawn for a PC?  And seeing that the spell is instant, the brawn has no fixed duration, it stays until spent?

4) Pain (p): For every BQ point inflicted by the target person, 1 point of B is made available to the caster of the spell for casting black spells; these points must be utilized during the current scene or they dissipate.

So, I could cast this on an enemy, and if they hit a ally, they give me B to cast spells against them? Or if used on an ally, the spell stay for the entire duration (sunup/sundown), it's only the B made available that has to be spent in the same scene?

5) Mind Rip (i): The caster may ask one question of the target person, which the subject must answer truthfully to the best of his or her knowledge, but limited to a single word; the target also suffers 1d6 BQ damage.

Answering the question is a full action in combat? (I can see a lot of uses for this spell in combat...)

6) Die (i): Compare the current Brawn of the caster and a nearby target person; both characters lose the lower of the two. This spell costs no other Brawn unless it is pumped.

Using this in combination with the other spells that raise Brawn would be devastating...  But which qualify? Vampirize and Stimulant raise the Brawn of the caster, that should qualify, but what about spells that give B "only to cast spells" like Sacrifica or Pain?

7) Stimulant (p). The target person or beast adds 1d6 BQ (which may exceed original values); when the spell's duration is over, he or he suffers 2 BQ injury, i.e. -1 B and -1 Q.

What happen if I cast it as a permanent enchantment? The stats increase permanently and "when the spell duration is over" never happen?

[Ron Edwards]

1) Vampirize (p): Target person loses 1d6 Brawn as a physical injury and the caster gains this amount for the duration of the spell. If lost through injury or spent to cast magic or for anything else, it does not recover. This spell costs no Brawn unless it is pumped.

Does this mean that I can cast it, get 1d6 brawn, use it to pump brawn to act right again, cast it, get 1d6 brawn, use it to pump brawn to act right again, cast it, get 1d6 brawn, use it to pump brawn to act right again, etc....  without spending the Brawn of my character?

H'm, I need to limit Vampirize strictly to the purposes of recovering from injury. You can't pump with it. You might not even be able to recover spellcasting-B with it.

2) What the PC cast Vampirize as an enchantment on himself? He can get a permanent increase in brawn using only stolen Brawn?

No. The spell is not altered by enchantment. In other words, it's a waste of time and B to enchant it.

3) Sacrifice (i): The caster must kill a person or beast to cast this spell. The victim's Brawn is stored as per Store Power, usable by the caster except for black magic rather than white. The stored Brawn may be used for an enchantment, in which case the caster suffers no permanent B loss.

So, sacrificing his own horse gets quickly 9 points of Brawn for a PC?  And seeing that the spell is instant, the brawn has no fixed duration, it stays until spent?

That's the intention. You do realize that horses don't grow on trees, right? Nor can you simply show up at the next village and "buy a horse." It's not a cash economy and they need that horse.

4) Pain (p): For every BQ point inflicted by the target person, 1 point of B is made available to the caster of the spell for casting black spells; these points must be utilized during the current scene or they dissipate.

So, I could cast this on an enemy, and if they hit a ally, they give me B to cast spells against them? Or if used on an ally, the spell stay for the entire duration (sunup/sundown), it's only the B made available that has to be spent in the same scene?

Enemy vs. ally makes no difference.

The spell stays for the duration, but the B has to be spent right away. (I think this is explicit.)

The effect of gaining the B must follow the range restriction for magic; if the target of the spell is out of range, the effect does not occur. So you can't cast it on someone, then the two of you ride away from one another across the landscape, and you get B who-knows-how because he just injured someone.

5) Mind Rip (i): The caster may ask one question of the target person, which the subject must answer truthfully to the best of his or her knowledge, but limited to a single word; the target also suffers 1d6 BQ damage.

Answering the question is a full action in combat? (I can see a lot of uses for this spell in combat...)

Answering the question is not an action; it's the immediate effect of the spell right when it's cast, on the spellcaster's action.

6) Die (i): Compare the current Brawn of the caster and a nearby target person; both characters lose the lower of the two. This spell costs no other Brawn unless it is pumped.

Using this in combination with the other spells that raise Brawn would be devastating...  But which qualify? Vampirize and Stimulant raise the Brawn of the caster, that should qualify, but what about spells that give B "only to cast spells" like Sacrifica or Pain?

Only spells that raise the caster's B. And yes, Vampirize + Die is a potent combination. Perhaps now you can see why the various oppositional spells are so important.

7) Stimulant (p). The target person or beast adds 1d6 BQ (which may exceed original values); when the spell's duration is over, he or he suffers 2 BQ injury, i.e. -1 B and -1 Q.

What happen if I cast it as a permanent enchantment? The stats increase permanently and "when the spell duration is over" never happen?

No, the duration still applies for the dissipation of the added BQ and for the impact of the withdrawal. This is another spell for which enchantment means nothing.

[Moreno R.]

1) Vampirize (p): Target person loses 1d6 Brawn as a physical injury and the caster gains this amount for the duration of the spell. If lost through injury or spent to cast magic or for anything else, it does not recover. This spell costs no Brawn unless it is pumped.

Does this mean that I can cast it, get 1d6 brawn, use it to pump brawn to act right again, cast it, get 1d6 brawn, use it to pump brawn to act right again, cast it, get 1d6 brawn, use it to pump brawn to act right again, etc....  without spending the Brawn of my character?

H'm, I need to limit Vampirize strictly to the purposes of recovering from injury. You can't pump with it. You might not even be able to recover spellcasting-B with it.

Damn, I thought I had discovered the perfect combo...

3) Sacrifice (i): The caster must kill a person or beast to cast this spell. The victim's Brawn is stored as per Store Power, usable by the caster except for black magic rather than white. The stored Brawn may be used for an enchantment, in which case the caster suffers no permanent B loss.

So, sacrificing his own horse gets quickly 9 points of Brawn for a PC?  And seeing that the spell is instant, the brawn has no fixed duration, it stays until spent?

That's the intention. You do realize that horses don't grow on trees, right? Nor can you simply show up at the next village and "buy a horse." It's not a cash economy and they need that horse.

But I could use a "Summon beast" to summon an animal to sacrifice...  in the "summon beast" description the summoned beast obey the caster until it get to zero in B or Q, so it's implicit that it would attack even a much bigger foe, risking its life, if ordered. Does this mean that they would submit to be sacrificed, at least until the moment they are effectively wounded so much to go to zero in B or Q?

How is "Sacrifice" cast anyway? You must kill the victim in a ritual way in a special way to get the benefits (but it's not listed as a ritual), You can kill the victim in any way you want (even with another spell or in combat) and then you can cast the spell on the corpse, or you need to pump B to cast the spell right after the killing? Or none of the above?

The points obtained with a Sacrifice don't expire. Does this mean that they stay from an adventure to another?

About "summon Beast", you can specify the exact type of beast ("a Horse", or even more exact, "a Siamese Cat"), or it's the GM that decide who arrives? (the beast is "summoned" from nothing or it comes from nearby on its own hoofs?)

And I thought about another killer combination: Summon Beast II,  Grow, Link.  (Yes, I often pushed GMs to desperation at the time when I played a D&D magic-user...)

4) Pain (p): For every BQ point inflicted by the target person, 1 point of B is made available to the caster of the spell for casting black spells; these points must be utilized during the current scene or they dissipate.

So, I could cast this on an enemy, and if they hit a ally, they give me B to cast spells against them? Or if used on an ally, the spell stay for the entire duration (sunup/sundown), it's only the B made available that has to be spent in the same scene?

Enemy vs. ally makes no difference.

The spell stays for the duration, but the B has to be spent right away. (I think this is explicit.)

The effect of gaining the B must follow the range restriction for magic; if the target of the spell is out of range, the effect does not occur. So you can't cast it on someone, then the two of you ride away from one another across the landscape, and you get B who-knows-how because he just injured someone.

Can it be cast on more than one person in the same day? (for example, to all the other knights in the venture, including the caster...)

[Ron Edwards]

But I could use a "Summon beast" to summon an animal to sacrifice...  in the "summon beast" description the summoned beast obey the caster until it get to zero in B or Q, so it's implicit that it would attack even a much bigger foe, risking its life, if ordered. Does this mean that they would submit to be sacrificed, at least until the moment they are effectively wounded so much to go to zero in B or Q?

My current thinking is yes. The caster still spends 2 B to cast Summon and 3 to cast Sacrifice - that's not nothing, especially when someone is throwing a spear at you.

We may want to discuss how blatant, gruesome black magic is perceived by nearly anyone you encounter. Or how Circle knights are not Dogs in the vineyard and why wandering in somewhere and brutalizing people with black magic isn't going to win you friends - or, for instance, food.

I'm also considering universal tripwires that will set communities against the characters no matter what, and how important it is that information travels much faster than the characters. Leaving a smoking, ruined village behind, complete with a few corpses on poles, seems easy to do - until a week later, far away.

How is "Sacrifice" cast anyway? You must kill the victim in a ritual way in a special way to get the benefits (but it's not listed as a ritual), You can kill the victim in any way you want (even with another spell or in combat) and then you can cast the spell on the corpse, or you need to pump B to cast the spell right after the killing? Or none of the above?

These are all good questions. The spell is showing its roots, perhaps including banned status.

My current thinking is that I should abandon the implication of the card, which is that you get a quick and easy burst of magic power, and instead turn it into a ritual, requiring hours, during which a person or creature is killed.

The points obtained with a Sacrifice don't expire. Does this mean that they stay from an adventure to another?

They operate as in the white spell Store Power, so they expire at the prolonged-spell duration.

About "summon Beast", you can specify the exact type of beast ("a Horse", or even more exact, "a Siamese Cat"), or it's the GM that decide who arrives? (the beast is "summoned" from nothing or it comes from nearby on its own hoofs?)

You can choose which beast as long as it's the right size. It is not a real local beast, it is entirely a magical construct.

And I thought about another killer combination: Summon Beast II,  Grow, Link.  (Yes, I often pushed GMs to desperation at the time when I played a D&D magic-user...)

Nothing wrong with this. But your inner powergamer keeps forgetting about the consequences of spending B all over the place.

[Moreno R.]

But I could use a "Summon beast" to summon an animal to sacrifice...  in the "summon beast" description the summoned beast obey the caster until it get to zero in B or Q, so it's implicit that it would attack even a much bigger foe, risking its life, if ordered. Does this mean that they would submit to be sacrificed, at least until the moment they are effectively wounded so much to go to zero in B or Q?

My current thinking is yes. The caster still spends 2 B to cast Summon and 3 to cast Sacrifice - that's not nothing, especially when someone is throwing a spear at you.

We may want to discuss how blatant, gruesome black magic is perceived by nearly anyone you encounter. Or how Circle knights are not Dogs in the vineyard and why wandering in somewhere and brutalizing people with black magic isn't going to win you friends - or, for instance, food.

It's for this reason that I looking at the spells that can be cast hours before... better yet if they are spells that can fuel white magic (you sacrifice a beast when you are alone and use the points afterward in public for socially-accepted spells.. you can't do it directly with the sacrifice spell, but you can use stimulant as a "B points cleaner", cast it with black B points, and use the resulting colorless B points to power white spells...)

About "summon Beast", you can specify the exact type of beast ("a Horse", or even more exact, "a Siamese Cat"), or it's the GM that decide who arrives? (the beast is "summoned" from nothing or it comes from nearby on its own hoofs?)

You can choose which beast as long as it's the right size. It is not a real local beast, it is entirely a magical construct.

What happen if you eat it? Can you use the beast's flesh to avoid starving, or the calories too disappear at sundown?

And I thought about another killer combination: Summon Beast II,  Grow, Link.  (Yes, I often pushed GMs to desperation at the time when I played a D&D magic-user...)

Nothing wrong with this. But your inner powergamer keeps forgetting about the consequences of spending B all over the place.

This is the question at the root of the use of magic in the game, I think...

If we use the rules in the draft, all I need is a short rest between casting, and after the last one I am good as new. If that is all what it takes, magic become very powerful, and a wizard can stack spells for hours in the morning and go to battle in the afternoon armed and armored like a tank, with a fleet of flying kamikaze giant eagles and a practically bottomless reserve of B that replenish itself every time he wounds someone.

If B don't return fast enough, casting a spell is like being wounded, and magic become something very risky seldom used.

[John W]

Geez Moreno, I'm glad I'm not GMing for you!  :-)
-J

[Joshua Bearden]

If summon beast is a magical construct then I have trouble accepting that it's sacrifice should be worth anything.  I'm comfortable with the idea that magic can be abusively stacked... this is one thing that distinguishes is CoH from so many heartbreakers which cleave to the assumption that magic must be balanced. On the other hand I had perpetual motion machine scams.  If summon beast rips a nearby beast from the landscape, there is a harsh tangible conflict in the world and potentially in the game. If all beasts are sacrificed, then the population is diminished. The black and white wizards probably don't care about that damage they do to the land.  But a Circle Knight and Grey Wizard would likely take a moment to consider...

[Ron Edwards]

Hi,

The principle embedded in the Store Power description applies across almost all the spells: that you can't stack the same spell. If you Vampirize twice, then all you do is replace the prior 1d6 with another roll. Going through the spells, I found at least twenty for which this principle applies, and the few exceptions are explicit, like Web.

I think that solves nearly all of the weirdness you're talking about, Moreno, without introducing new rules or anything else to track. Aside from a bit of willful misreading, such as not noticing that Sacrifice works like Store Power, and Store Power is explicitly non-stackable.

Now, cross-spell stacking and combining is awesome and the more, the better. I'll do a second glance tomorrow to see if the scene-recovery problem remains - I recall that in one of these threads, I talked about not being able to cast more than one's total Brawn in out-of-play "prep for the day" spells, so that might be the solution already in place. But I don't see anything wrong with casting Blade, Envenoming it, and carrying that around all day, or the Summon-Grow-Link trick (although note that you can only use one point at a time with Link!).

Best, Ron

[Moreno R.]

Hi Ron!

I am getting the impression that you are reading all this as if I was being argumentative and I was saying "your rules suck!". Not at all! I am checking the spells description to find loopholes, details that can be exploited, etc...  and I am citing them here instead of using them Thursday (when I will not be the GM...) because I want to know which of these are legitimate uses of spell combinations and which are a misreading or something to be fixed: what sense it would be in playtesting a misreading of the rules?

The principle embedded in the Store Power description applies across almost all the spells: that you can't stack the same spell. If you Vampirize twice, then all you do is replace the prior 1d6 with another roll. Going through the spells, I found at least twenty for which this principle applies, and the few exceptions are explicit, like Web.

The color description of the Store Power spell muddy this a lot, and leave it open to different interpretation: the text I have says:
Store Power (c, r). The 2 Brawn spent are added to a storage pool, which appears as a glowing nexus of energy (it may float or be bound into a staff, gem, or anything similar). After casting, the caster may recover normally and spend the stored Brawn to cast white spells at any point throughout the spell's duration. Once used, the Brawn is gone. A person cannot have more than one Store Power operating at once.

From the text, it seems that it's the vessel, the "glowing nexus of energy", that is the "stone power", so you cannot have two of them operation at the same time. But you can "fill it up" as many times as you want, 2B at a time, as long as you want.

It was the way I interpreted the rule. It align with the ways "energy containers" works in a lot of games (From Ars Magica to AD&D... up to Tokens in Sorcerer and Sword if I recall correctly, but I am not sure about the last one), so it's not only a "possible interpretation"...  it's the most traditional one for people who come from these games.

And there is another issue, too...  the description of Sacrifice says Sacrifice (i): The caster must kill a person or beast to cast this spell. The victim's Brawn is stored as per Store Power, usable by the caster except for black magic rather than white. The stored Brawn may be used for an enchantment, in which case the caster suffers no permanent B loss.

What does it means "stored as per Store Power"? That you store B to use later? That you store B to use later in a glowing vessel? That you can store B to use later in a glowing vessel that may float? Why should a Black vessel glow? How much of the description for Stone power apply for Sacrifice apart from "store B to use later"? (my interpretation when I did read the rules: none)

And where was written "The principle embedded in the Store Power description applies across almost all the spells: that you can't stack the same spell"?

I know that you said to avoid nit-picking the text, that it will be changed later and this one is still very provisional, but that was not a clarity problem, it was a very important rule that was missing: if You can't stack the same spell twice if it's not specifically allowed in the spell description, that change totally the way the spells can be used.

So: I totally get that it's irritating to get questions about things that are really clear in your head, but I am not inside your head, and I am missing these pieces until you write them down.

I think that solves nearly all of the weirdness you're talking about, Moreno, without introducing new rules or anything else to track. Aside from a bit of willful misreading, such as not noticing that Sacrifice works like Store Power, and Store Power is explicitly non-stackable.

Now, cross-spell stacking and combining is awesome and the more, the better. I'll do a second glance tomorrow to see if the scene-recovery problem remains - I recall that in one of these threads, I talked about not being able to cast more than one's total Brawn in out-of-play "prep for the day" spells, so that might be the solution already in place.

What you wrote, replying to me in this post: http://indie-rpgs.com/adept/index.php?topic=302.msg2971#msg2971
was:

1) what happen if you cast "Stimulant" (2,b) two times in a row? Do the effects add to each other, do the second one take the place of the first, or what?  (what I decided provisionally: you can't add "stimulants" spells, only the first one count, if you are unsatisfied with the results, you can't simply cancel the spell and cast it again, you have to cast a counter-spell to cancel the first one)

That's a question I'll have to think about. My initial response would be to permit the second spell and have everything about each casting apply - e.g. lose 4 BQ at the end of the duration.

So it was the opposite case: in that post, I had provisionally ruled (during the playtest) that you could not stack the spell two times, but in your reply you said that (in your thinking at that moment at least) the same spell could be stacked more than one time

So it's like this: in the playtest I provisionally said "the rules is this: no stacking!", and you replied "no, you can stack the same spell twice", so in preparation for the next playtest, I write "So, what happens if I stack this spell more times" and you "no, didn't you read what I wrote? You can't stack the same spell twice"

...


...


...You totally owe me a beer after having made me write all this!

[Ron Edwards]

That was then and this is now.

You are in the very special hell of playtesting. You and everyone else here are unfortunately trapped in the lag between the manuscript, and whatever I said then, and whatever I'm thinking now. I only have time and energy for the now. It's true: I have no memory of saying that to you. Or whether it was in the manuscript. You can even point me to the post, and I won't remember writing it. I'm in design mode and that is a state only describable in terms of obsession. It'd be completely self-centered if it weren't all about something besides myself.

This means there is no, absolutely no point in backtracking. But you said that! And I asked, and you said! And the manuscript says, right here! Doesn't matter. You're right, morally and intellectually. But not in the design-space, where the now is in my head. All that stuff is a bunch of rubble behind us which I can't even imagine looking at.

Playtesting is a horrible, thankless, wretched job. You'll never be right - or rather, you'll never be acknowledged as right as we go along. In the book, you will be! And it won't be the awesome book it is, without you. That's the good part, but it's later. I sympathize - I do, completely, but don't look for me to be fair. We aren't discussing something as equals, I am designing, and the designer is a horrible stereotyped creature who only cares about the thing in his head, who regards the crud just scraped off - which to everyone else, is sitting right there in the manuscript as a part of it - with loathing.

Truth: I am not frustrated with you. This is crucial, incredibly important work. In fact, since figuring out the "Hey, repetition just replaces, it doesn't add," this very evening over my steak and potatoes, and finding that little snippet in the Store Power, I'm thrilled. The game is better. It works based on something that was already there (a teensy bit), and  I didn't have to institute crap like "B for spells can only be held to the level of the caster's original B" generating a whole new metric to track. I didn't! I am thrilled. I am a genius. Sun is shining in my head. What does the game look like now?

You made that happen. Jump up and down with me about that, here and now, and never mind processing the process.