I'm a freelancer and independent PDF game producer.
I prefer setting specific systems that fit the mood and style of play.
I have lots of ideas for off-the-wall and out there games.
However, I have to support myself as an individual and a business.
Completely independent games don't sell nearly half as well as d20 or OGL material.
I find this unsatisfying but it is a necessity to make money.
So, how to turn things around so that I get to write the games I _want_ to write and manage to make a margin from it?
How can the Indy community encourage the take up of non d20-derived material?
Quote from: GRIMCompletely independent games don't sell nearly half as well as d20 or OGL material.
Is that really true? It sounds to me like one of those bits of "common wisdom" that isn't based on hard data, but expectations and the memes that were created about d20/OGL and its use in the market. Anyone have hard data regarding market sale trends and d20 products in general compared to non-d20 products?
Data? No. Personal observation? Plenty of it. He could be wrong, but I doubt it.
Hi Grim,
I'm sure some of the publishers here will point out that they do make a margin. Perhaps not enough to quit their day jobs, but they do make profit. And a couple of folks are doing reprints, or getting distribution through Alliance and other major distributors.
If your concern is profit, you shouldn't be looking to rpgs. Sorry, but true. Unless you have the ability to pour in enough money to do a superb marketing campaign, plus incredible presentation for a solid product, your profit isn't going to be big enough to warrant writing for a game system you're not into.
So now, the questions to ask yourself are:
-What are your expectations from publishing games, and are they realistic?
-What kind of games do I want to make, and do I really want to make them, or will I require constant encouragement?
Chris
No hard data, but what about:
TROS
Sorcerer
Swashbuckler
Fvlminata
Orkworld
And there are more indie games that are successful. I postulate that the reason indie games seem not to sell as well, is that most indie sales happen over the Net. They just aren't represented in mainstream game stores very well, or not at all. (See WOTC, who happen to be in alot of malls and sell to the more casual gamer.)
I own about 14 different games, 10 at least which I went online to purchase. I plan to buy a couple more that I've run into while on these forums. This indie community is definitely encouraging the use of non-D20 games...
Jonathan
First, remember that material released under the OGL doesn't necessarily have to be d20 (there is, however, a default expectation that it will be). For instance, portions of Formless will be released under the OGL (and Formless doesn't even make use of dice, let alone twenty-sided dice). Frankly, I'd really like to see more indie games released under the OGL.
Shouldn't this thread be under publishing?
Build up a reputation. Start with d20 and branch out as your customer base grows.
If, say, Monte Cook came up with a brand new RPG system, it would sell like crazy because he has the customer base and reputation.
There is hard data.
RPGNOW publishes information that relates to their sells. It does show that the D20 market is the dominate market, but it also shows that indie games at least sale.
Check this interview out with James from RPGNOW:
www.emeraldpress.net/emeraldnight/articles/article1i.htm
In it there are charts and such that shows some sales figures. Also they compile this data into the ePublishers Guide: www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1668
Second hand data is poor evidence I know, but in speaking with a rep for a major distributor, I was told than on average (through the three-tier system obviously) a new non-d20 game will be doing very good to sell over third of the number of copies of new d20 or OGL game.
That's about the hardest data I've got available.
Hello,
I have a friend that works with a company that makes a pretty good line of games. He told me that they made a new product, and put a D20 logo on it, and the book sold out almost immediately. He said the amount of book sales was equal to a years worth of sales of one of their other (non D20) books.
I think there are three choices for indie game makers:
1. Produce great products and hope to establish themselves so they can compete like the other non D20 companies (Rifts, GURPS, etc.).
2. Fall for the dark side and make their games compatible with D20, to boost their sales.
3. Just keep making great products and a modest profit and ignore the big companies.
It's probably just a marketing thing.
Just my $.02
Thanks for the commentary.
Please don't speculate on the sales figures, I do have hard data both from the RPGnow figures and directly from my own experience.
I'm trying to find an adequete balance between my artistic and commercial demands.
My aims?
My aim this year was to make more in turnover than I was getting in welfare (I was a .com casualty and there's been no work in my area for my skills for almost two years).
I am going to acheive that goal this coming month with still a third of the year to go.
Go me.
However, that is only a foundation upon which to build.
I _despair_ at the sheer unreasonable popularity of d20, which isn't a good system - certainly not for all genres - but it does, certainly, sell.
You can do innovative things to change it, alter it, mess around with it - I have - but you're still subscribing to and supporting the phenomenon, and that IS going to crash and burn like card games did (though possibly slower).
So, what to do?
I should love to write more completely indy material but where's the margin? What motivation do I have? Will people buy? Will people make an extra effort to support Indy-RPGs?
Hello,
Let me give you a couple of observations from the last year.
I routinely pull in $100-$300 a week in direct sales for Adept Press. This is simply the amount that hits my business checking account via my Paypal account. It is typically more than enough to cover my business expenses for present and future projects.
I pointed this out to a very well-known freelancer who writes extensively for companies which are often touted as the most successful in RPG history. His jaw dropped.
You see, he is very "successful." That means waiting for paychecks to arrive, and often not getting them until months after they were promised.* That also means calling the owner of a book he contributed to and asking (politely begging, really) whether it's going to receive more promotion. And finally, it means having no control whatsoever over what work actually goes into print, how it's edited, how it's laid out or otherwise treated artistically, and whose work accompanies it.
Sure, on paper he makes money. But that money's actual presence in his account, in a reliable fashion, is a real crapshoot. And creatively speaking, he feels as if "his work" rarely fully reaches the audience - and even when it does in terms of text, the management of the books might not achieve it.
It floored him to discover that I did not correspond to his notion of the hobbyist-publisher, whose work is fueled by artistic drive and who lives in a wretched garret, warmed only by his knowledge that he is pure from filthy money matters.
Nope, I'm a filthy stinking capitalist pig. Adept Press makes me money. There is no downside, not creatively and not financially, as long as one accepts that we are talking about running a business rather than a career. And I'm not alone in this, not by a long shot.
Grim, given your stated goals (which I think are very clear), here are a couple of points I think you might want to consider in detail, and really to gather data about before getting wrapped up in some irrelevant concerns.
1. D20 or not D20 (or to expand a little, OGL or not OGL) is a complete and thorough non-issue. Use it if you decide it's well-suited to your needs, don't if it's not. Very easy.
2. Presence in game stores is one venue of several available; it can be as important or central to your business plan as you want it to be. "Must ... get ... into ... stores!" should not be your primary concern, however. It's best considered as a form of promotion, except for a few exceptional retailers.
3. Approval or justification from others is never going to be possible, not as a starting point. You ask, "Why should I do this?" and I can only say, no one can tell you why you prefer something. The more so when you're not even sure. Whatever it is you decide to do, is what it is.
Best,
Ron
* Credit where it'd due: of the well-known high-volume RPG publishers, White Wolf is widely respected for paying freelancers fairly and on time.
Quote from: Ron Edwards
1. D20 or not D20 (or to expand a little, OGL or not OGL) is a complete and thorough non-issue. Use it if you decide it's well-suited to your needs, don't if it's not. Very easy.
I thought GRIM was rather agitating over the tactical implications of using D20. It's not that there is any muddled non-reason reasons in there, just that he would like to make games he considers good, but would also like to sell well. Saying that he should use D20 if it suits him won't really help without telling also how that affects his artistic and commercial endeavour.
Me, I think that GRIM should go with what's best artistically (that is, what makes the best games). The gratification gained from a work well done is immeasurably greater than any monetary rewards likely to be reaped from writing rpgs. So if the quality is a factor at all for you, I think that choosing to use an unsuitable system for some added sales is a fool's bargain.
Ultimately it of course depends on the particular weights one puts on one or the other aspect. As I understand it, some people do this for the money. In any case, we probably should try to give some concrete advice on the implications of doing non-D20 games.
Quote from: GRIM
I'm trying to find an adequete balance between my artistic and commercial demands.
Split it. If you're going for PDF, it's especially easy. The key consideration in choosing D20 or not is to recognize that D20 is actually a non-system as far as design is concerned: people who play it play it because it's D20, not because of any particular points of contact with the subject matter. You know those people who tell us that they play very satisfying untraditional D20 campaigns? That's because they derive their satisfaction from other things than the system, usually in the form of some kind of simulationism.
Now, the plan: Write your ideal roleplaying game, with no consideration whatsoever for the business side. Then, make a D20 version of it. That's easy, as you won't be porting the mechanics, only the color and background information you wrote for the real game.
Those are the bits that matter to D20 players anyway. You see, if they were interested in your system bits, they'd play your actual game, wouldn't they? Just rip out your own mechanics (maybe preserving the potential GM tools, as GMs are ready to learn new mechanics) and put in some notes about how standard classes of whatever flavor of D20 you're using can be ported to your game. For the most part the rules mechanics will really take only a couple of pages, and quite legitimately to boot.
The result: you have a good game to sell to people who care, and a D20 version for those sales. Give the other version free to people who buy one of them (making them effectively one product), so nobody will have any complaints about your doing a half-assed job with the D20 version. Again, if they care about the rules, what are they doing buying a game that says in the cover that it uses rules from D&D?
Doesn't work for all projects obviously, but that's a start at least. The main point of the above exercise is that you have to work the market: if you think that people go for D20, then by all means, give them that. Or better yet, recognize what it is that they like in D20 and give them
that.
I'm a little lost.
GRIM, what are you trying to do? Self publish? Or freelance to a publisher?
If you are freelancing to a publisher, how do you normally get paid? My understanding is that flat rate or some per/word basis is the standard. If that is correct, what difference does it make to you how much the project you freelance for eventually goes on to sell?
Is your thought that d20 products sell more and therefor d20 publishers can afford to pay you more for your freelance services?
That may or may not be true (I have no idea really, never having been a freelancer or hired freelance writers) but here are 2 thoughts.
1) Alot of independent publishers who sell none d20 product sell the majority of their copies direct, meaning they put a hell of alot more in their pocket per copy than going through distribution. Thus, numbers of copies sold does not necessarily translate into greater revenue to pay freelancers with.
2) The handful of indie publishers I have knowledge of have generally been very successful at reliably paying the freelancers they hire (typically art and layout rather than writers since most author their own work) at the agreed upon time and often in part up front. While the dollars offered may not be as high, surely there is some value in getting $500 for certain, vs. $1000 sometime...maybe...if you nag enough. How much value, of course, is up to the individual to judge for themselves.
"GRIM, what are you trying to do? Self publish? Or freelance to a publisher?"
I do both.
"If you are freelancing to a publisher, how do you normally get paid? My understanding is that flat rate or some per/word basis is the standard. If that is correct, what difference does it make to you how much the project you freelance for eventually goes on to sell?"
Usually flat rate, sometimes advance against royalties.
However, you'd be wrong to think once you get a flat payment sales don't make a difference.
Write something critically acclaimed or that sells like hot potatoes and you'll get more work and can command a better rate.
"Is your thought that d20 products sell more and therefor d20 publishers can afford to pay you more for your freelance services?"
No, my thought is that in my own produced products, more people do buy d20 offerings.
D20 PDFs sell more copies. Example:
The Whispering Vault (Released 3/16/2003) -- 130 copies
101 Collection (Released 4/26/2003) -- 292 copies
(if I may ask)
Is this only the core rulebook, or with the "Whispering Vaults collection 1"?
(I understood the "d20 sells better" part, I'm just surprised in the difference, especially for these items.)
Quote from: Rorimack(if I may ask)
Is this only the core rulebook, or with the "Whispering Vaults collection 1"?
(I understood the "d20 sells better" part, I'm just surprised in the difference, especially for these items.)
Just the core rules. Vault Collection 1 has sold 130 copies. I selected the two PDFs to show numbers on for a reason. If we look at the numbers for single sales of the three PDFs in the 101 Collection we find:
101 Arcane Spell Components -- 245 copies
101 Mundane Treasures -- 599 copies
101 Spellbooks -- 430 copies
To show another D20 PDF, my Campaign Planner has sold 444 copies.
vs. Monsters Deluxe Edition has only sold 19 copies in PDF.