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Independent Game Forums => lumpley games => Topic started by: Tobias on April 06, 2005, 07:16:54 AM



Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: Tobias on April 06, 2005, 07:16:54 AM
Ok, so yesterday, I'm making sure I understand this whole DitV conflict resolution and chargen thing by making up a character up to, and including initiation.

My 'guy' Zeb is really simple, likes horses, and wants to impress the horseriding trainer at the temple as his first conflict. The trainers sends him out to a man who is known to be abusive of his horses - make him stop.

Zeb walks up, finds the guy whipping the horse, conflict starts. The horsebeater opens up with a 17, saying 'get off my property now, young pup'.

No way Zeb can match a 17, so he has to Take the Blow. I was really stumped at first on how to do so without having to follow the spoken command, but in the end I came up with a response along the line of "I may be a young pup, but..."

I guess that's how you Take the Blow, but continue anyway?

How is it determined - for this opening conflict - that the conflict doesn't quickly escalate to shooting - with Zeb getting hit by a big 17? causing big fallout?

The conflict played out in such a way that Zeb would lose (raise of 7 he could not match). However, till now, they had only been talking (Zeb did draw on some traits). Zeb could possibly escalate to fisticuffs or gunplay, but would the opposition get any fresh dice as well? How many? Do I quickly get to make up a char and add dice? Is it a loss for the horsebeater because no dice are possible to be gained by the horsebeater/GM?

Oh yeah, if the horsebeater is a Faithful, does Ceremony work on him (he's got a soul, after all)? I presume yes. Again - no way to respond/escalate above and beyond the 4d6 4d10 initial dice?


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: Jason Morningstar on April 06, 2005, 07:27:48 AM
I think if I were Zeb I'd be throwing in all kinds of things to match that 17 - my love of horses, the fact that I'm a Dog, my coat, whatever it takes.  

And you can escalate without resorting to violence, or escalate to talking from gunplay.  This threw me for a loop, too.  It seems to be a common confusion.


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: lumpley on April 06, 2005, 07:41:06 AM
Rules questions yay.

In no particular order:

---

For initiations, the GM rolls 4d6 4d10 and has no access to any other dice ever. Often, this means that if the Dog escalates, the Dog wins. Some initiatory conflicts, the Dog will escalate to win; some, never. It's all good.

---

I raise: "get off my property" with a 17. You take the blow. Your character has to get off my property. And stay off, or whatever the implication of the raise was. You don't get to take the blow without taking the blow!

Then you get to raise or give. If you can't come up with a good raise - because, for instance, you're now far away from the action - you have to give.

But don't forget that you can play time tricks! "See: dang it, I get off his land. Raise: the next day, I see him in town..."

---
Quote
How is it determined - for this opening conflict - that the conflict doesn't quickly escalate to shooting - with Zeb getting hit by a big 17? causing big fallout?

I don't understand this question. If Zeb shoots the guy, or if he shoots Zeb, it escalates to shooting.

"Get off my land," if you take the blow, inflicts d4 fallout dice no matter what.

---

If the horsebeater is Faithful, ceremony doesn't work on him, unless it's his soul beating the horse. (I'm pretty sure it's not his soul, but his body, his arm, and his whip.)

Ceremony inflicts d4 fallout, unless you're inflicting it on a demon, a sorcerer, a possessed, or a soul.

---

Those seem like maybe not the answers you were expecting! Let me know.

-Vincent


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: Simon Kamber on April 06, 2005, 08:47:03 AM
Quote from: lumpley
I raise: "get off my property" with a 17. You take the blow. Your character has to get off my property. And stay off, or whatever the implication of the raise was. You don't get to take the blow without taking the blow!

Then you get to raise or give. If you can't come up with a good raise - because, for instance, you're now far away from the action - you have to give.

But don't forget that you can play time tricks! "See: dang it, I get off his land. Raise: the next day, I see him in town..."


Hmm, just a thought here. Suppose the stakes where whether the initiate could stop the guy beating this horse to death, right now. Wouldn't that mean that taking the blow automatically lost the stakes?

And by extention, does that mean that if you can present a raise that the opponent cannot "take the blow" with without being unable to counter-raise, and your best two dice are higher than his best two dice, you automatically win the stakes? That seems like a pretty easy way out of a conflict to me.


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: Jason Morningstar on April 06, 2005, 09:16:01 AM
I'd say that's why you negotiate what's at stake.  Hopefully, as a group, you'd reach some consensus on stakes that were interesting and not quite so black-and-white.  Unless that was what everybody wanted...


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: Bankuei on April 06, 2005, 09:17:40 AM
Let's not forget that you can't resolve the Stakes before the contest is over.

Chris


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: lumpley on April 06, 2005, 09:54:33 AM
Exactly.

How about this: if you make a raise that could win the stakes for you automatically, be prepared to give your opponent suggestions about how to take the blow but still stay in the conflict, in case that's what happens. If you can't think of any suggestions, make a different raise!

-Vincent


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: Simon Kamber on April 06, 2005, 10:03:57 AM
Quote from: lumpley
Exactly.

How about this: if you make a raise that could win the stakes for you automatically, be prepared to give your opponent suggestions about how to take the blow but still stay in the conflict, in case that's what happens. If you can't think of any suggestions, make a different raise!

-Vincent


That makes sense.


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: Joshua A.C. Newman on April 06, 2005, 10:06:24 AM
Quote from: Simon Kamber
Quote from: lumpley
Hmm, just a thought here. Suppose the stakes where whether the initiate could stop the guy beating this horse to death, right now. Wouldn't that mean that taking the blow automatically lost the stakes?


This is a problem I've had before. What if the nature of the Stakes is such that taking a blow makes you lose them?

What if: the stakes are, "Can I get out of this without any blood being spilled, and the raise is "I kill you IN THE FACE!!!" and you have to take the blow?


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: lumpley on April 06, 2005, 11:06:03 AM
Just raise appropriately to the stakes. If the stakes are "do I convince him to give up his sinnin' ways," you wouldn't raise with "I convince him to give up his sinnin' ways," would you? So if the stakes are "is blood spilled," don't raise with "I spill blood."

Establish this for everybody in the initiatory conflicts, or sooner. "Don't make a raise that's the same as the stakes" is all you have to say.

-Vincent


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: Lance D. Allen on April 06, 2005, 11:16:43 AM
How 'bout this?

Raise: Get off my property, now!: 17

Take the Blow: Alright, I'm going..
Raise: But you're coming with me. (escalate to physical but not fighting as you go to drag his ass off the property before you can settle the conflict.)


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: lumpley on April 06, 2005, 11:19:55 AM
Sure!

-Vincent


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: Ul on April 06, 2005, 11:45:57 AM
Also a thing that has to considered, would anyone really force a issue so much as to raise with 17?

Same thing with gunfighting, don't raise with so much that they have to take the blow and get terrible fallout if you don't want to kill them. Had that option in our game (last, and so far only, hopefully more soon), to say "I shoot you, raise 19" forcing the character to take the blow with five, or six dices. I didn't. As he didn't really want to kill or even harm a dog (just kill the guy that has abused his daughter).

It's the same dillemma here, would the horsekeeper (or horse abuser as it should more likely be) really want to shove somebody from the church of the king of his ground without having a chance to say what he came to say? Besides that, i don't really understand why the horsekeeper opened the conflict, yes, he had the highest dices. But really, it wasn't him that was deliberately going into a discussion.

Morale of this little rant like post, don't always play the dices the way to win, but the way that the character would do!


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: Joshua A.C. Newman on April 06, 2005, 12:29:56 PM
Quote from: lumpley
Just raise appropriately to the stakes. If the stakes are "do I convince him to give up his sinnin' ways," you wouldn't raise with "I convince him to give up his sinnin' ways," would you? So if the stakes are "is blood spilled," don't raise with "I spill blood."


Sorry, I was unclear. It was the violent, antagonistic character that raised "I shoot your ass."

To clarify:

Stakes: Can Bro. Goodguy get the Bro. Badguy to repent without having blood spilled on holy ground?

Bro. Badguy: I shoot your ass!
Bro. Goodguy: I take the blow...


... so what happens? Which of these is true:

A) Bro. Goodguy has lost the conflict, regardless of remaining dice
B) Bro. Badguy can't escalate to violence, even though what he wants is to get blood on holy ground?


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: lumpley on April 06, 2005, 12:55:54 PM
Oh.  

I think the answer is that the game just doesn't support stakes where you're hedging like that. I'm pretty sure that the stakes are actually "can I get him to repent?" and we both know that coming up here you're going to have to make hard decisions about violence.

-Vincent


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: Lance D. Allen on April 06, 2005, 04:28:10 PM
Yeah.. Vincent 'splained this in one of my Actual Play threads.

It's generally just a bad idea to put life, death, injury, etc. in the stakes, because then you're likely to catch-22 yourself into failure.


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: WiredNavi on April 06, 2005, 04:35:33 PM
I had this same problem working out some narration-rights stuff for my own project.  My solution was to require that the stakes for any conflict be a single clause.  "Can I make him repent his ways" is fine, as is "Can I prevent blood being spilled", but "Can I make him repent his ways by/while preventing blood being spilled" is too much.


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: Tobias on April 07, 2005, 12:17:33 AM
Quote from: lumpley
Rules questions yay.

In no particular order:

---

For initiations, the GM rolls 4d6 4d10 and has no access to any other dice ever. Often, this means that if the Dog escalates, the Dog wins. Some initiatory conflicts, the Dog will escalate to win; some, never. It's all good.

---


Ok. Clear.

Quote

I raise: "get off my property" with a 17. You take the blow. Your character has to get off my property. And stay off, or whatever the implication of the raise was. You don't get to take the blow without taking the blow!

Then you get to raise or give. If you can't come up with a good raise - because, for instance, you're now far away from the action - you have to give.

But don't forget that you can play time tricks! "See: dang it, I get off his land. Raise: the next day, I see him in town..."

---


So, basically, if the verbal thing's an order, you must follow the order. (In my case, I thought "well, it's an order and an insult, so I'll take the insult as a blow (admitting to the 'pup' insult)"). That works.

Time tricks or 'but you're coming with me' raise - excellent.

Quote

Quote
How is it determined - for this opening conflict - that the conflict doesn't quickly escalate to shooting - with Zeb getting hit by a big 17? causing big fallout?

I don't understand this question. If Zeb shoots the guy, or if he shoots Zeb, it escalates to shooting.


Unclear phrasing on my part. In combination with the other posts in the thread, it's clear.

Quote

"Get off my land," if you take the blow, inflicts d4 fallout dice no matter what.

---

If the horsebeater is Faithful, ceremony doesn't work on him, unless it's his soul beating the horse. (I'm pretty sure it's not his soul, but his body, his arm, and his whip.)

Ceremony inflicts d4 fallout, unless you're inflicting it on a demon, a sorcerer, a possessed, or a soul.

---

Those seem like maybe not the answers you were expecting! Let me know.

-Vincent


Together with the rest, it's all clear to me. Funny how you've got to experience a (potential) problem to appreciate it's nature and solution (since similar things have been asked and answered).

Tx!

Oh, and even the test rocked - even if it was just solo-test play. Looking forward to taking Dogs out for a spin!


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: cdr on April 07, 2005, 01:54:19 AM
I like the clarification that stakes shouldn't be hedged, so "Do you get him to repent?" is fine, but "Do you get him to repent without spilling blood?" is not. Specify outcomes, not methods: very helpful!

Quote
Those seem like maybe not the answers you were expecting!


I am a bit startled to find out "Taking the blow" when someone orders you to do something means following the order.  ("Get off my land!"  "OK.")  We were playing it as just having the words affect you, the same way as having a punch land on you in a fight hurts, but it doesn't get to knock you out of the fight. Sounds like we were wrong.  It sure would have made a big difference when Sister Philomena was lying half-under her horse all messed up and Raised 20 to tell Brother Jabez "Kiss me and put a bullet in my head."

Quote
"Don't make a raise that's the same as the stakes"


It sounds right that you can't make a raise that would win the stakes automatically, but then it also seems wierd sometimes. If the stakes are "Do we catch the guy" and there's a bit of chasing and the Dogs get close and call out "Surrender!" and he Takes the Blow (because he doesn't have the dice to dodge or block, but doesn't want to Give), he has to surrender? But that's the stakes! So then it's saying that we can't call out asking him to surrender if what we want is to catch him? Doesn't that seem kinda funny?

Or does that sort of dilemma  mean the stakes somehow weren't set right?

--Carl Rigney


Title: Souls of the Faithful
Post by: cdr on April 07, 2005, 02:20:43 AM
Quote
If the horsebeater is Faithful, ceremony doesn't work on him,  unless it's his soul beating the horse. (I'm pretty sure it's not his soul, but his body, his arm, and his whip.)

Ceremony inflicts d4 fallout, unless you're inflicting it on a  demon, a sorcerer, a possessed, or a soul.

Those seem like maybe not the answers you were expecting! Let me know.


Oh! That's too bad. We were thinking Ceremony was the Dog speaking directly to the Faithful's soul, in words he'd ignore at his peril.  If Ceremony is only talking to the soul, not the Faithful it's attached to, that's not as handy, but perhaps that's as should be.

I was really liking how three Dogs together (Three in Authority, d8 fallout) were much scarier to take fallout from than one or two, if they chose to assert that.  (Which they might not, if they don't want to risk folks dying from having their souls slapped around.)

So as far as souls go, its just for things like attaching souls back into bodies when healing, or sending ghosts on their way, or disentangling twins that have had their souls mixed up, that kind of thing?  That's cool too.  Plus it means sorcerers and possessed are more vulnerable than ordinary Faithful, which does feel right.

Thanks for the clarification!

--Carl Rigney


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: lumpley on April 07, 2005, 05:27:45 AM
Oh and hey, always always always follow your group's lead, especially with regard to ceremony, the supernatural, and what's a legit raise or see. Carl, especially - don't sweat it unless it's not going well. The conversation I'll have with someone who's learning the rules will be necessarily different from the conversation I'd have with someone who's already playing. Particularly: Tobias doesn't have a group's lead to follow yet.

-Vincent


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: Tobias on April 07, 2005, 06:34:44 AM
All too true! And as long as you're having fun, you're doing it right, AFAIC.


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: Lxndr on April 07, 2005, 08:16:42 AM
He can take the blow, stop and surrender... fall to his knees, give up, etc.  The dogs get closer to catching him... and then he raises, and wow, the surrender was just a fakeout!

I'd consider that a valid raise.  Is there a reason why it shouldn't be?


Title: [Ditv] A couple of rules questions
Post by: Lance D. Allen on April 07, 2005, 11:25:46 AM
A fakeout, or.. something happens. Demons possess him, or he just plain changes his mind.. Or he surrenders by pulling his gun, and putting it in his own mouth.

There's a lot of things you can do to keep the conflict going when you have to take the blow.