Just read through the UW thread at rpg.net where the topic about optional UW2 game systems like d20 or Fudge conversion rules is discussed.
Maybe Gareth or Todd (hey Todd!) can give us some insight about the current plans or ideas on this?
Jürgen Mayer
Well, right now, we have definitely plans for a D20 conversion appendix, if only for the added sales boost.
We've discussed some other options, for further appendixes, but nothing has been decided yet---we've got to talk to some other publishers at the GAMA Trade Show next week.
GMS
I already mentioned this over on RPGnet but I would like to see an Appendix for the Over the Edge system.
I've had great luck using this system for a wide variety of games: OTE, Nexus the Infinite City, Thundarr, a contemporary horror game and a Flash Gordon game.
It has a very open nature and can be summed up in a few pages.
Quote from: jordvortexan
It has a very open nature and can be summed up in a few pages.
Hell, half a page to a page I'd guess.
A Nexus player? Wow, don't see those every day.
Mike
Quote from: MadMoses
Maybe Gareth or Todd (hey Todd!) can give us some insight about the current plans or ideas on this?
Hello to you
He who is Always to be Introduced as 'From Germany' We've actually got several systems in mind. You all know there's gonna be a d20 appendix. [Yeah, groan away.] Like GMS says, we've got a couple of people to chat with at GAMA, then we'll tell you all more, I promise. :)
Quote from: TSLHello to you He who is Always to be Introduced as 'From Germany'
Aaargh! But what should I expect? There's just nothing else to say about me. I guess I'll just have to live with that.
Quote from: TSLWe've actually got several systems in mind. You all know there's gonna be a d20 appendix. [Yeah, groan away.]
Groan. =)
Well, I wish you and the AE crew much fun in Las Vegas.
Jürgen Mayer
Quote from: MadMosesQuote from: TSLHello to you He who is Always to be Introduced as 'From Germany'
Aaargh! But what should I expect? There's just nothing else to say about me. I guess I'll just have to live with that.
Dude, at least you have the "from Germany" part. Look at it this way:
"Hey guys, this is Jared."
*silence*
"Hey guys, this is Jurgen...
from Germany
Maybe include a system for folks who dig realism and detail, GURPS probably has the biggest fan base.
Quote from: jordvortexanMaybe include a system for folks who dig realism and detail, GURPS probably has the biggest fan base.
No offense, and trying to be as non-flamey as possible, but people who "dig realism and detail" probably shouldn't be playing a game that sets out to be an urban fairy tale. It's as far from realism and detail as possible...and that was done on purpose.
That would be like saying that baseball should include a system of determining possession through a series of downs, for those who prefer territorial-acquisition sports, like football.
D20 is as detailed as I want to get....and I'll be completely up-front about this: the only reason we're including an appendix of those rules is because of the measurable sales spike that it represents.
GMS
Quote from: Jared A. SorensenDude, at least you have the "from Germany" part. Look at it this way:
"Hey guys, this is Jared." *silence*
"Hey guys, this is Jurgen...from Germany
=)
Quote from: GarethD20 is as detailed as I want to get....and I'll be completely up-front about this: the only reason we're including an appendix of those rules is because of the measurable sales spike that it represents.
I would say D20 is way "too detailed" for urban fairy-tale UW, but you already told us why you'll include it anyway. Although I would rather see this appendix on the web and not in the book (cause I'm also a bit "afraid" of d20 monster stats in upcoming UW releases), which would mean that I wouldn't have to pay for content that I will never use, I'm aware that this prolly won't have the same boost effect on sales.
Quote from: MadMosesI would say D20 is way "too detailed" for urban fairy-tale UW, but you already told us why you'll include it anyway. Although I would rather see this appendix on the web and not in the book (cause I'm also a bit "afraid" of d20 monster stats in upcoming UW releases), which would mean that I wouldn't have to pay for content that I will never use, I'm aware that this prolly won't have the same boost effect on sales.
Right....I do think that standard D20 is too detailed for UW, but I'm interested in seeing what we might be able to do with it....while at the same time keeping the following restrictions:
1) Keeping it as an appendix. I don't want this sucker eating up the book.
2) Putting in some kind of conversion mechanic, so that I don't have to include any D20 stats in any future products. Give the D20 fans the tools to make the conversions themselves, and leave it at that.
3) Make some attempt at keeping the UW feel in the D20 rules---come up with UW-specific rules adaptations, rather than just presenting UW as a D&D campaign setting.
I'm not going to let the appendixes push up the costs of the book...they're going to be there as bonus material, not as features. I want this book to be AT LEAST twice the size of the 1st edition rulebook. This sucker is going to be BIG. We've got the room.
Hell, I've even thought about running the optional rules (D20, or any others) not as appendixes, but as running sidebars throughout the book, thereby making sure that there is usable, straightforward UW material on every page, for those folks who don't care about the conversions.
Basically, it comes down to this: this version of UW is going to have everything that I want in it. There will be no such thing as "too much". For the first time, I'm calling EVERY shot on this, and that means that I don't have to compromise at all.
I was watching "RKO 281" last night, and as arrogant as it sounds, I want UW2 to be my "Citizen Kane"....completely and uncompromisedly faithful to my vision. Sounds awfully pretentious, but screw it....it's how I feel.
GMS
GMS
Quote from: GMSkarkaI was watching "RKO 281" last night, and as arrogant as it sounds, I want UW2 to be my "Citizen Kane"....completely and uncompromisedly faithful to my vision. Sounds awfully pretentious, but screw it....it's how I feel.
Do you think you'll be able to do this and still include rules conversions? If part of your vision is for UW to be able to fulfill the largest group's needs, then I can see it. But if you're doing these conversions strictly for sales, then I'd say your vision is already compromised.
No offense meant, mate. I see fully where you're coming from -- it's how I approach all of my projects. What I saw in UW1's system was integrity on part of the designer. Throwing what others said aside and saying, "I could give a flip whether you prefer dice to coins, this makes sense and I'm sticking with it!" Conversions, however, scream
compromise to me. Not that I'm saying you shouldn't do the conversions. If an extra ten pages will bring in enough cash for Adamant to do other projects, that's fine with me, especially if you can tweak the d20 system so that it evokes the same (or similar) feeling and environment I get when I think of tossing coins. But I know that I couldn't tack on appendices and be faithful to my vision.
It's hard to find the midline between integrity and business sense, no?
Quote from: GMSkarka1) Keeping it as an appendix. I don't want this sucker eating up the book.
2) Putting in some kind of conversion mechanic, so that I don't have to include any D20 stats in any future products. Give the D20 fans the tools to make the conversions themselves, and leave it at that.
3) Make some attempt at keeping the UW feel in the D20 rules---come up with UW-specific rules adaptations, rather than just presenting UW as a D&D campaign setting.
Sounds like a reasonable compromise.
Quote from: Jason L Blair
Do you think you'll be able to do this and still include rules conversions? If part of your vision is for UW to be able to fulfill the largest group's needs, then I can see it. But if you're doing these conversions strictly for sales, then I'd say your vision is already compromised.
Actually, the conversions are part of the vision, in as much as they are there to demonstrate that the setting kicks so much ass, that it will, as you say, "rock the fiznuck on" regardless of the rules system involved.
Really, "the vision thing" applies more to the setting than it does to the rules, for me.
One of the reasons why I'm bothering to do a second edition, to be honest, is because I've had some nibbles at the UW property from third parties. Getting the IP out there in a stronger manner, with a larger audience, can only help things.
Maybe that's mercenary. But when you're talking about things like books, television and film prospects, you're talking about the kind of exposure that most folks in this industry don't see.
So it's not just mercenary, it's egotistical as well! :)
GMS
Gareth: ("how to suck eggs" coming up ;)) Big books can be nice, but the effort required increases exponentially for readability. To draw me all the way through a big book, "adequate" writing is not enough - I'm liable to lose momentum partway through and put it on the "finish later" pile (where the spiders live). So you've got to write more *and* better pages. I'm not questioning anybody's ability, just suggesting that the book be no longer than it needs to be. Faced with a short book, it's easier for a reader to set targets and get through to the end.
Re D20 - do you have to keep the D&D format for character descriptions, including that muddled attribute set? It might be useful to incorporate some sort of magical feel in the actual die-rolling, and to make the character sheet (if there is one) less technical-looking than the D&D one. Yuck. Throw away everything except attr+skill+roll, points-based attr generation, heavy Breed racial influence? Levels?! I suspect putting it in its own heavily patrolled reserve would be better than letting it roam through the book infecting the innocent.
Are fiznucks repelled by horseshoes, or am I getting mixed up?
Quote from: GMSkarkaActually, the conversions are part of the vision, in as much as they are there to demonstrate that the setting kicks so much ass, that it will, as you say, "rock the fiznuck on" regardless of the rules system involved.
Cool. When I read you were going to pursue multiple systems for conversion purposes, I got the feeling that might be it.
Quote from: GMSkarkaHell, I've even thought about running the optional rules (D20, or any others) not as appendixes, but as running sidebars throughout the book, thereby making sure that there is usable, straightforward UW material on every page, for those folks who don't care about the conversions.
I feel the opposite way - I'd rather have any conversion information tucked into the back, where I don't have to read it if I don't want it. Having d20 and other system stats in sidebars is probably the better solution for attracting d20 players, though. I worry about parts of the layout being too cluttered with optional bits and pieces, but I'm sure that you also share this concern so I won't belabour it.
What would be totally cool is an UnderWorld: The Basics book, a 16-32 pager with the barest of starter info, the Head Count system, d20 rules, and <Insert Other System> rules, in the vein of GURPS: Lite. Probably impractical as a print publication, but maybe more feasible as a web download?
I, too, would prefer to see the D20 rules as an appendix, tucked out of the way ;-)