This is about my Ronnies entry, Adrift, which can be found at http://www.spacklecube.com/press/adrift.pdf.
In the results, my entry was one of the ones categorized as Parlor Narration. From the [Ronnies] October Winners (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=17287.0) thread:
QuoteThese games raise an interesting issue. They are essentially "I get to say what the dice tell me" procedures, organized into specific scenes and what-to-roll rituals. Unfortunately, this is not an SIS-generating procedure, any more than putting on a funny hat and voice when playing Monopoly is role-playing. These games are entirely too structured in terms of what a character "is," imaginatively speaking, and more generally, what "can happen" during play. In contrast with fairly ritualized games like My Life with Master and Polaris, I think these are marked by a complete inability for characters actually to do stuff outside the immediate instructions of the rules, up to and including making crucial choices about relationships with other characters.
Which begs the question, however, of whether these games work. Mechanically, they well might, in the sense that gears will shift and cogs will revolve. Imaginatively and motivationally? That will be a very, very local question, and my judgment at this point is that all of these entries have gone over a crucial line, to the point where the role of human input is restricted only to the end-process of resolution, too much so for it to play a conflict-generating role.
The good news is that none of them suck. I think all of them could well be brought back over that crucial boundary into the zone that I think yields successful play, with a conceptual modification, mostly affecting when Fortune is applied and how scenes may be constructed. I hope to be able to articulate how this might be done for each game in the feedback threads.
Really, this is a problem I realized the game had soon after I submitted it, and I've been thinking about ways it could change. Here's a summary of the rules as they are now, if you don't want to read the .pdf:
The basic premise is you're part of a team of about 3-6 characters going down to explore a planet to find out if it is suitable for colonization by the last remnants of your species. Invariably, it is not, and at least one member of the team is killed. Then, you get back to the ship, where characters react to the death that occurred on the planet. These two parts are handled by separate conflict systems that follow the same basic mechanics.
There are about 10-12 characters involved, with each player having 2-4 characters to play. Each character has a survival trait, which starts at 5, and a relationship trait for each other character rated from -5 to 5. During the mission on the planet, (called a threat) each character rolls d6's equal to their survival trait, and the GM rolls a bunch of d6's. He selects a character, puts forward two dice, (a challenge) and narrates some sort of obstacle the character needs to overcome. ("You slip while the alien cannibals are bearing down on you.") The player then puts forward enough dice to equal the total of the two dice the GM put forward (meeting the challenge) and narrates how he overcomes the obstacle. A player can use relationships to aid others or themselves at the expense of others; a negative relationship indicates that you can take dice from another player up to the value of the trait, while a positive means you can give dice to another player up to the value of that trait. The GM keeps throwing challenges at you until you no longer have the dice necessary to meet a challenge, in which case your character dies. Every surviving character adds one to their survival trait at the end. That's how planets work.
Once you get back to the ship, you enter conflicts with other characters based on their relationships with the deceased character. One character is designated the aggressor (the one who is coping with the death by blaming the other character) and the other is the defender (the character who survived the mission on the planet). The aggressor gets a number of d6s equal to 5+(relationship with the deceased)-(relationship with defender) and the defender gets a pool equal to 5+(relationship with the aggressor)+(dice given to the deceased)-(dice taken from the deceased). If the aggressor pool is zero, then there is no conflict between the two. The aggressor rolls and puts forward dice like challenges and the defender meets the dice like challenges, and at the end of the conflict, if the aggressor has dice left, he subtracts the number of dice he has remaining from his relationship score. If the defender has dice left, the aggressor adds the number of dice to his relationship score. Both are capped at 5. Then, you move on to the next planet and have another mission and repeat the process until you've only got a small group of characters remaining.
I recognized it as Parlor Narration (though not with that specific term) fairly quickly after I submitted the game. The limitations imposed on the character's behavior by relationships completely neutered the part of the game where you had to make choices about whether to try to help everyone survive or concentrate on your own survival. My first fix was to change the number of dice you could take to 5-(relationship score) and the number of dice you could give to 5+(relationship score). That way, the choice wasn't taken out of the hands of the player during character creation, but it was still limited by relationships. Since then, though, I've realized I need a massive overhaul of the system. For planets, I have been thinking that instead of the GM rolling a bunch of dice beforehand and putting forward challenges without any real timing to the action, I could instead run the threats on the planets like this:
1) The GM targets a character and rolls a single d6, narrating what is happening to him. (the challenge)
2) The player decides how many dice from their pool they are going to put forward to meet the challenge. At this time, they may take a single die from another player's pool and use it in combination with their own dice to meet the challenge. (called hindering) If they can meet the value of the die rolled by the GM with a single die taken from another player, the target of the challenge becomes that player, and he has to put forward dice to meet the challenge. (this rule is just a brainstorm right now and I haven't thought about it much) Otherwise, the original target puts forth his dice, including any taken from other players, and narrates how he's trying to deal with the challenge. (meeting the challenge)
3) The GM rolls another d6, and adds it to the other d6. (a complication) If the total is less than the total of the dice put forward by the player, the character meets the challenge. If it is not, then he must be helped by the other characters to overcome the challenge.
4) Each player, in order of proximity to the character being challenged as determined by the situation, has an opportunity to give dice to the currently challenged player in order to help him meet the challenge with an accompanying narration. (called helping) If the challenged player has enough dice to meet the challenge after this, then his character survives with the help of his comrades. If he doesn't get enough dice, he dies.
The GM keeps challenging the characters in this fashion until enough of them die to satisfy the GM that there will be some interesting interpersonal conflicts back on the ship.
I think those changes move the planetary conflicts away from parlor narration, and put the emphasis on how far the characters are willing to go to survive, and how much they're willing to sacrifice in order to survive. The dice taken and given will be factored into the later interactions between characters, which need to be completely overhauled. What I want to happen in the aftermath conflicts is for the characters to attack one another for failing to save characters they cared about, and for the relationships to change. I think, however, that instead of just running through the list and doing a dice pool for each character, a more complex system is necessary. My current ideas are based around players initiating conflicts with other characters as they feel necessary, with a system in place for handling conflicts with multiple people, and people who didn't go on the mission, to represent stuff like talking shit about people behind their back. However, I'm still trying to come up with a system that still gives the players choice beyond what the dice dictate.
I've also thought about adding in some sort of flashback system that the characters could use to gain dice in conflicts by invoking some traits added to character creation. ("Yes, this is just like what my father said to me right before he died of cancer.") That's off in the future, though, once I get relationship conflicts down.
So, does anyone have any ideas for getting the relationship conflicts beyond parlor narration? I'm still thinking about it, but overhauling it is giving me a lot more trouble than the planetside conflicts have. Also, do the modifications to the planetside conflict systems take it beyond parlor narration by putting a lot of choice in the hands of the players, or have I still not crossed the line?
Cyrus,
It's a nice game - exactly the kind of sci-fi I like. The premise of shipbound survivors searching for a home in an inhospitable universe is lovely.
And the colour text at the start is very good. It must be, because I actually read it. And I always skip colour text. I even skipped the colour text in my own game when I read it back.
One of the things that didn't work for me was that all the dice were rolled before going down to the planet. I didn't like this for two reasons:
a. It meant that, when I was on the planet, there was no way to alter the dice rolls. I could narrate something and put forward dice from my pool, but, in a sense, my narration didn't change anything. My narration just accompanied putting forward the dice. It didn't affect the dice.
b. On a very subjective level, rolling the dice before going on to the planet seemed to imply that the whole exploration phase was an extended conflict. I'd have preferred a bit more breathing room: some time to explore the planet - and for the characters to start thinking it might be habitable - before the conflicts started.
It looks as though a major influence for the conflict pattern is Dogs In The Vineyard. (Good influence). So, I guess, I'd prefer conflicts to work in a similar way to that game: that I bring things off my character sheet to affect conflicts. So, for example, I'd like to have a "I can leap sure-footedly between rocks" trait that I can use when the planet gets torn apart by earthquakes. Something like that.
The other slight quibble I have is about the Aftermath scenes. Now, I like the idea that characters should fall out after a failed attempt to explore a planet. But having a specified scene to do it makes it a bit more dull.
Those are mostly negative comments, but I liked the game a lot, and I'd be interested in seeing how it develops. Good luck with it.
Graham
Hello,
I pronounce this thread the official Ronnies feedback thread!
I'll tell you what I really like about this game, and would love to experience in play: basically, it's Star Trek with an edge, "the redshirt's revenge." What if someone back on the ship really cared about Ensign Fitzgerald?
The most overtly Parlor Narration feature in the game, as I see it, is how it's determined who is going to have a beef about a given dead character. You just check your numbers and see whether you're pissed or not? And even worse, you check your numbers to see whether you back down or not, against opposition? I dunno, man. That's like being handed a script and told, "act like this." Not what I role-play for. What do you think about repairing this?
Looking at the resolution, I'm seeing a modification of Dogs in the Vineyard (not the only Ronnies entry to do this, which is fine) ... but I'm confused by helping. It seems to be zero-sum, in that if I help someone, I simply drop my own chances in my upcoming challenge. Why would I do that? On the other hand, I really like the exploitation mechanics, which are rather nasty. My only concern is that its effectiveness would be heavily influenced by the GM's imposed order for attacking characters. In other words, the system at present really privileges negative bastards if they go later than most of the other characters.
Is player-character ownership as fluid as it looks? Can I and a fellow player trade characters if we want, when we want? What about back on the planet?
Now, the GM's creative role is very clear during the planet adventures, but I think it needs more description during the Aftermath. I recognize that most of the conflicts will arise from inter-character interactions, and that's fine, but I also think very strong input from the GM is necessary regarding why they cannot colonize the planet. This should definitely be phrased in in-game terms, such as analyses or readouts, and clearly would arise from whatever happened or was discovered during the planet adventure.
Again, there's a really strong basic idea waiting here for development. I recommend checking out The Fruitful Void (http://www.lumpley.com/comment.php?entry=119) in Vincent's blog ...
Got it? Good. Now, going by Vincent's whirlwind diagram, as it stands, Adrift is unfortunately cursed to go 'round and 'round without ever generating a center, or as I originally put it, arriving at the eighth corner of its cube. Part of the reason for that is that the ship just drifts and drifts, never ending, never landing, sort of a reverse of Gilligan's Island. If you want to keep that element of the situation, though, then you'll have to consider just what can build and develop into more than the starting conditions, over time. Otherwise, the tenth planet-adventure really isn't going to be any more interesting than the first. I don't think that the dwindling crew is the answer, though. What that answer is, for this game, I think needs one more solid session of brain-work on your part.
Best,
Ron
Ron,
As I see it, my main goal on the second go-around should be to make the actual changes in relationships the fruitful void? I should be approaching the mechanics not from the standpoint that the characters need to interact so there should be mechanics for that, but that there should be mechanics that make the players want their characters to interact? Like how the mechanics in Dogs in the Vineyard revolve around the players making moral judgments, but there isn't a mechanic like "sin" governing moral judgments?
If this is true, my thinking is that I should do a few things:
1) Make it so the players want to change their characters' relationships with other characters. The first motivator for this that comes to mind is something that makes their bonds with other characters actually help them survive on the planet.
2) Make mechanics governing character relationships that don't rely on quantifying said relationships and then using those quantities to then determine changes in the character relationships.
Right now I'm thinking something along the lines of putting relationships into categories (hate, dislike, neutral, like, love) and then having those categories be irrelevant during the acutal interaction based on relationships, but changing them is the objective of those interactions, and those relationships in turn can be used by the players to gain mechanical advantages planetside. Or should I not even give mechanical benefits for changing your relationships with other characters--is that taking away the fruitful void? The more that I think about it, the more that I imagine that it is.
Okay, this is a little stream of consciousness since I'm changing my mind midstream here, but it seems like what I want to do is sort of create this whirlwind:
Threat->Choices about helping and surviving->characters interacting and dealing with the choices made on the planet->Threat->Making choices in light of the changed relationships between the characters->dealing with the choices->Threat
and so on and so forth.
So, prehaps my goal should be focused on, mechanically, making choices on the planet important.
I guess my main hangup is on whether or not I should be trying to motivate the players, mechanically, to want to change their relationships, or if I should leave that entirely up to the players' control, or if I should perhaps give the GM governance over the situation? Or do I need to find a happy medium between all three?
My instinct is that I want to make the players want their characters to interact via the mechanics, but I don't want the mechanics to decide how the characters interact; I want that to be the fruitful void. Am I on the right track here?
Quote from: Cyrus Marriner on October 24, 2005, 02:20:10 AMOr should I not even give mechanical benefits for changing your relationships with other characters--is that taking away the fruitful void?
I'm going to disagree. Giving a mechanical bonus or penalty to a character is not the same as forcing them to use it or act on it. It provides incentive to behave in a particular fashion, without
forcing them to behave in a predetermined fashion, which I believe is exactly what you're looking for.
Cyrus,
I was playing Killzone this morning and I realized something: does Adrift allow for, say, the group coming to a planet occupied by an early industrial society whose entire globe is wrapped up in a deadly war? Say we're talking WWII, and the crew arrives to find everything is perfect for colonization...except for the whole "everyone trying to kill everyone else" thing.
What are the options Adrift might provide here? Can they decide to, say, help one faction establish themselves as the winners in return for political asylum and land of their own to colonize? Can they decide to "help" the natives blow themselves into Kingdom Come so they can take over the planet?
As it stands right now, no. The focus of the game isn't so much finding a suitable planet as it is dealing with the relationships between people put in stressful situations where they may die at any moment. I mean, it's certainly possible for them to find a planet to colonize, but that isn't really covered in the scope of the rules. The whole situation would pretty much be predicated on GM fiat, and not covered by the actual rules. That's because the whole "colony ship searching for a new homeworld" thing is a backdrop, not the point of the system. The point is for the characters to be forced into a stressful situations where they make choices about the risks they'll take to help each other, and then deal with how those relationships. They're not supposed to find a suitable planet, unless the GM has a good idea.
That said, it is possible that the GM could end the threat of the vast war with the characters succeeding in stopping it or getting both sides to wipe each other out, if the players worked towards that. However, they would have to overcome the language barrier, which would be pretty big since this is low-tech sci-fi, without universal translators and the like. Unless a character is a linguist, they might have a hard time meeting challenges through communication. Also, it would be really hard for them to change the course of a global war, considering that their team consists of a few people, and their weapons technology is pretty much on the level of modern firearms and grenades. Still, the GM could let them overcome the conflict. Hell, they could colonize, and the same systems would work for a colony dealing with hazards on the planet. Especially if their solution has an unforseen consequence, like creating giant irradiated insects or a religious faction . The timing of threats and aftermath conflicts would just become a little more interesting in that situation, as opposed to the current divisions imposed by the setting's "explore then return" flow.
I wouldn't advise it, though, unless the GM feels the campaign has gone on long enough, which wouldn't surprise me. I didn't really envision the game going beyond six to ten sessions at the start of the design. I'm working on a revision of the rules, and should have them ready to post after my softball game tonight. Hopefully they'll be more focused and clarify what the focus of the game is.
-Cyrus
Cyrus,
I see a potential problem/conflict here in that you mention in the text the possibility of intelligent alien humanoids being the source of the colonial impediment, but here you are stating that it is not an idea in keeping with the nature/focus of the game.
The reason I asked about the WWII stuff was because I see it as ripe for potential conflict and danger, and it does still present an uninhabitable world: not simply an environmentally unavailable one, but one uncolonizable for other reasons, cultural and political ones that might very well strike at the heart of what the game is already about: real conflicts between real people about real-world issues, with the added danger of personal survival if not the very survival of the species being at stake.
There's no guarantee that every crew member will see the situation in the same light: "Here's the atom bomb (now blow yourselves up!)." is a possible reaction from someone, to which another crew member may very well react with horror! What about selling the entire colony into what amounts to slavery (issues of racism) in order to secure a place on that world? The conflicts on the planet to survive are: survive against each other and the aliens.
Consider, what happens when some of the group is trying to make sure the rest of the group can't get back to the mothership to sabotage it and make sure the deal they've struck with the aliens is held up?
Otherwise, we're talking solely environmental hazards, and (IMO) that can very quickly get old, especially when you put the idea out there that the probes check to see if planets are even habitable first -- so you keep dealing with just-almost-but-oh-oops-not-quite worlds again and again. The text definitely needs to provide more guidance in this area. I think numerous examples of what makes a planet unsuitable, perhaps even a dozen or more writeups of possible planets and their attendant dangers so players/gamemasters can get a feeling for what to expect out of play would be very useful.
Now, I'm not trying to force you to change your game, if you still think this is too far outside its scope (obviously, I'm not thinking it is), just consider some of this stuff.
Hiya,
Clearly the dialogue is going wrong here.
Raven, for some reason, the way you're presenting things just isn't clicking for Cyrus. I suggest it's time to give him some space; remember that ownership is a pretty strong factor in these discussions, and it can get triggered even when you don't intend to do that,.
Cyrus, I'm OK with your call that settling down to colonize isn't your priority for the game. I'm pretty sure, though, that you aren't limiting yourself just to spear-wielding natives and storms for hazards on the planet. Any chance of listing some of the things that you'd be throwing at players if you were to be running a game? Say, five or six sketchy plans for a five or six planets?
Best,
Ron
Quote from: greyorm on October 26, 2005, 07:58:52 AM
I see a potential problem/conflict here in that you mention in the text the possibility of intelligent alien humanoids being the source of the colonial impediment, but here you are stating that it is not an idea in keeping with the nature/focus of the game.
That's not what I'm trying to say. I think it's a great idea for a planet, rife with all sorts of hazards that could make for very interesting play. I'd run it in a heartbeat. I'm saying that
beating the threat as opposed to
escaping--and not just this specific threat, but any threat--is, if not outside of the scope of the game, then on the outskirts of that scope. Right now, the focus is on relationships and how the characters interact with one another under stress. Let me hammer out this revision of the rules and it might be clearer.
Just let me see if I can't clarify a little bit right now: As far as the current design goals go, the meat of the game is the interactions between characters. The threat is just a tool to make those interactions more meaningful. The goal isn't for the characters to find a world and settle down, it's for the characters to interact with one another. The early rules don't really drive that point home, and probably actually obscure that purpose, but the new rules might make that clearer. Once I get those rules out, I'll get down some examples of planets.
Alright, I've overhauled the system, and made it less numbers-based, and a bit more freeform, and tried to take away as much of the parlor narration as possible. Here's my second stab at it:
Characters Creation still has two types of traits, with a possible third one. There's Survival, which remains essentially unchanged and starts at 5, going up by one after each threat. There's also the Relationships traits, which have been completely overhauled. Instead of being rated by numbers, each relationship is given facets, statements about the character's relationship with the other characters. ("I hate him," "I think she's a slut," "When he chews his food a million times I want to just punch him in his fucking jaw," etc.) Instead of being mathematically factored into the system, these relationships will be invoked by the players; more on that later. I'm also considering a third set of traits, backgrounds, which could be invoked by starting "flashback" scenes to gain traits for later use. I kind of wish I hadn't read 3:16 before doing this, since now I feel like I would be ripping it off to add this kind of device to the game. On the other hand, when I had the idea for it originally, I was pretty much ripping off the TV show Lost, so, um, yeah.
The idea to add background traits is a response to Graham's feedback, in that it will give the players something to do during the threat. However, with the redesign of relationships, that might give the players something else to do without adding an extraneous element. I don't really like the idea of having "good rock-jumper" types of traits, since the main focus of the game is on the interactions between characters during the threats over just surviving the threats. However, if I can come up with a good system for the background flashbacks it could certainly make for a good mechanic for fleshing out characters. But for right now, I'm going to shelve the backgrounds idea until I've got the relationships and threats working properly.
Threats have been changed, mechanically. They still follow the same basic principles, but are less arbitrarily decided by the GM. Instead of the GM deciding who to challenge, all characters are challenged at the same time, sort of in an initiative system. Here's the process:
1) The GM rolls a single d6 for each player involved in the threat. This is each character's challenge. If this is the start of the conflict, the players all roll their characters' survival scores, again in d6's.
2) The challenges are resolved in order from highest to lowest--6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1--with challenges showing the same number being resolved simultaneously. Resolving a conflict is the following process:
2a) The GM narrates the nature of the challenge to each player with a challenge being resolved. ("You see a superheated gas cloud burst through the floor and begin filling up the room in front of you.")
2b) All challenged players narrate their characters' response to the challenge and put forward any number of dice totalling any value. ("Shit, I close the door!")
2c) The GM rolls a second die for each player with a challenge being resolved, and adds it to the value of the first die, comparing it to the total value of the dice put forward by the player. If the player's value is higher, he meets the challenge, and we move on to the next challenge to be resolved.
2d) If the player's value is less than the value of the challenge, then his character encounters a complication, with accompanying narration. ("The gas, growing ever hotter and increasing in pressure, screams through the seams in the door, scalding you.")
2e) Now it's up to the other players to help him out. Each character (in some order, I'm not exactly sure how it should be defined at the moment--perhaps by highest showing die) chooses if they want to help the character in trouble. It's worth noting that I've taken out hindrances for the moment; now selfishness can be expressed by opting not to help. You're already getting a bonus by keeping dice you might have otherwise given, there's no reason to add a mechanical benefit on top of that. If a character wants to help, he has to invoke one of his relationship traits. ("Shit, I can't let my best friend die!") It doesn't necessarily have to be a relationship trait with the character in trouble, ("I love Lisa, and she would hate me if I let him die.") nor does it have to be a positive trait. ("I despise him, but when he dies, I want him to know I killed him.") When a character invokes a relationship trait, he can give any number of dice to the character in trouble. If more than one player is resolving a challenge at the same time, then each player in a position to help chooses which player he will help, if any, but he cannot help more than one player at a time. Players currently resolving challenges can also help other characters who are also resolving challenges at the same time. Each time a character helps another character, note how many dice he contributed to the character, since that's still used in the aftermath. Oh, and you can only invoke any given facet of a relationship once.
2f) If a character has a high enough total to meet the challenge after being helped, he survives the challenge. Otherwise, he dies. Either way, move on to the next challenge.
3) Once all challenges in the round are resolved, the GM rolls up a new set of challenges, and the process is repeated until the GM stops the threat. At the end of the threat, each surviving character's survival trait goes up by one.
Then, once the threat is done and the characters are off the planet, the aftermath conflicts start. They've been completely changed, and the terminology is a little clunky at the moment, so my apologies if this is confusing. Instead of going down the threats one by one, each character gets a pool of unrolled dice, and then decides which relationships they want to commit those dice to changing. Here's the procedure, as I envision it:
1) Each player gets ten unrolled dice, plus however many dice they gave to other characters during the threat, to kind of represent the general goodwill a person who risks his life for others will gain.
2) Each player takes some number of their dice and indicates which character they want to have interact with their character, (I'm thinking they put them next to the appropriate relationship on their character sheet and hide it somehow) and then all players reveal who they have committed dice to, and how many dice they have committed.
3) Starting with the highest bid and proceeding to the lowest, each player declares what their character, the aggressor, wants to get out of the interaction to which they committed their dice. ("I want her to fall madly in love with me." "I want to present an air of mystery.")
4) The character to whom the dice were committed, the defender, decides how many dice they want to commit to resisting that accomplishment.
5) If two characters committed dice to each other, then the two accomplishments will be resolved at the same time, with the player with the lower bid commits dice to resisting first, followed by the higher bidder. If the initial bids are equal, both characters bid blind.
6) Once you have the conflicts, resolve them in order of highest initial aggressor bid to lowest. Resolution works a lot like meeting challenges during threats:
6a) Both players roll the dice they bid. (d6's) I'm not sure if this should be done blind so the players don't metagame against one another. Otherwise, I'll have to put a cap on how many dice an aggressor can put forward to keep these conflicts prolonged. (i.e., the player says, "I love you!" puts forward way too many dice for the defender to meet, and the defender has no choice but to reply, "Okay, I love you too.")
6b) The aggressor puts forward any number of dice as his initial challenge, accompanied by narration. If you want to try to end it in one blow, put forward a lot of your dice, and drop a sledgehammer. ("I'm the one who murdered your father.") This is presuming I go with the blind bids instead of capping the dice limit. I like the idea of somebody trying to win one of these conflicts with one statement and putting forward all their dice, but I don't like the idea of them doing it when they've counted up all their dice and see they have more than the defender.
6c) The defender puts forward enough dice to meet the challenge, or concedes the interaction to the aggressor, in which case the conflict ends. Either way, the action should have accompanying narration.
6d) If both players are aggressors, they take turns trying to advance their agendas. If one player concedes in the face of the other's challenge, he gets to put forward challenges to advance his agenda until he runs out of dice or the other player concedes.
6e) If a character wants to add more dice to his pool, he can invoke a relationship just like how it's done during threats to gain one more die. He can also invoke his relationship with respect to how much he helped the other character, gaining a number of dice equal to the number he gave to that character during the threat.
6f) If the aggressor wins, the defender adds a new facet to their relationship trait with the character that reflects a shift in their character's attitude in the direction the character wanted. For example, if the defender lost a "I want her to fall madly in love with me" interaction, she might add "I'm drawn to him and intrigued by his behavior," or "I have a thing for bad guys." The aggressor gets to add a facet to his relationship with the defender, based on whatever the character feels. In the previous example, he might add "Damn, she's beautiful when she smiles," or perhaps "What a rube."
6g) If the defender wins, the defender and the aggressor get to add a new facet to their relationship traits with one another, based on whatever they got out of the conversation.
7) Then, move on to the conflict with the next highest initial bid by the aggressor and repeat the process until all the conflicts have been resolved.
That's how the aftermath conflicts work now. Hopefully, this gives the players lots of choices as to what they want the other characters to feel about their character, and prioritize how much of a commitment they want to make to advancing that agenda. The terminology needs to be cleaned up a lot, but for now I think I have a good outline to build on.
A few things from the earlier rules are gone. Now, instead of having a large crew that gets whittled down to a few characters, with players having multiple characters initially, the crew size is set to the number of players involved. When a character dies, the ship thaws out a new crew member and the player makes a new character. This would, of course, require at least four players to get a good interaction between characters. However, if I have any good ideas for how to handle players having multiple characters at once, that isn't necessarily a done deal. I do like the idea, but I run into the problem that seems to have brought Vincent's Ars Magica fishbowl to a halt: What if my characters are on opposite sides of the same conflict? (http://www.lumpley.com/comment.php?entry=86#2478) The setup of this game even exacerbates the problem, since it revolves around the characters being on opposite sides of the conflict. An off-the-top-of-my-head idea: perhaps players would bid for the rights to own characters somehow? Make the characters not subject to individual ownership, but more along the lines of a "character pool" the players draw from. That could certainly make character death more relevant to the game, whereas my revision is kind of an "Oh Jim's dead let's just unfreeze another Jim" thing.
Actually, now that I think about it, I like this idea a lot. Especially if I added in backgrounds, this would allow a character to be kind of a bare bones outline at creation, and then each player could add their own unique type of depth, along the lines of the character. I don't really have any experience with bidding systems, though. Does anyone know of any good systems or writings on bidding systems that I might want to mine for ideas?
At the moment, though, I think that's a playable system without any extra rules. I'm toying around with how to mechanically run backgrounds. Do I need some sort of fortune way to resolve the background flashback, or do I leave it entirely up to drama? I want to enable involvement for multiple characters in any one aftermath conflict, so I'm thinking about systems for that. Also, players might need to be able to target multiple players with their bids in the aftermath conflict, but I suppose that's easy.
Anyway, I'd like some feedback on the overhauled system before I try to go any further with it. Thanks.
Hi Cyrus,
Am I getting you right in that basically what happens on the planet is really just shit that happens and it's how the PC's cope with it that matters?
I wonder if Ron and Raven are starting to concentrate on the planet and what happens there (rather than just using as grist for the coping mill), because they don't know what they are supposed to do in play. Do you really roll to see who has a beef with who and whether you back down, etc? That's probably eliminating play for them as well, from the spaceship side.
I think their trying to work on getting some play in there. But I suspect you've already got play, it's just not clear and present. With the 'who's got a beef' rolls and backdown rolls, how do you see player reactions occuring? Is it about something like the players drawing/inventing conections of behaviour, between characters. Like Jim got really pissed off at Drew, after a giant space ape stamped Mike to death. And then the player draws some 'situation X results in reaction Y' observation from that, about giant ape attacks and what they trigger in Drew? Inventing a causal link, perhaps?
Callan,
Yeah, that's what i'm going for.
In the original version of the rules, yeah, whether or not the characters care about each other was decided by math. Which was, essentially a foolish way to go with it because, as much as I like math, it takes away completely from the roleplaying. Pretty much you went down to the planet, which was where you made your only decisions in the entire game: how much you helped and hindered each other player--and even this was limited by a number on your character sheet. Everything else was just about adding numbers and rolling dice to find out what happened, which sucks. I'll freely admit that, and I can't blame Ron and Raven for concentrating on the planet, since that was the only place you got to make even the shadow of a decision. I was thinking, "Hey, it'll be cool to see how the characters interact," but then I restricted it to algorithms so it pretty much was the roleplaying equivalent of interaction in the Sims, but less complex and with fewer choices. I should have been thinking about how the players interact with one another, and designing a system to aid and encourage those interactions and give them meaning. I think the revised rules have done that, although there are a lot of ways I can add complexity to the interactions..
The latest revision of the rules is in my post just above, though I suppose a summary would be nice, and more than adequate for purposes of this discussion: The players decide what their characters want to do, in the form of bidding to create dice pools to advance their agendas with other characters. Whether or not their agendas (and I hate that word, it feels too formal for what I'm going at here) are advanced is up to fortune, but the players decide how badly they want something by bidding. Still, they can influence the fortune aspect of the game by invoking facets of their relationships to gain more dice. The facets of their relationships are essentially single-sentence descriptions of how the character relates to another character. Pretty much, in the revised rules, I'm trying to give the player control over everything once they get back to the spaceship, except for when other characters want to resist them, in which case I feel fortune is the way to go.
I want to expand the relationships system to the point where you can invoke your relationships with other characters not involved in the conflict to invoke the opposing character's relationships with those other characters, and maybe even trying to affect a character's relationships with other characters who aren't involved in the conflict. I also want to tie back in the importance of character death regarding character interactions on the ship. For right now, though, the previous paragraph is pretty much the gist of how player interactions work now.
Cyrus, I'd love to see a complete example of play with the mechanics being used as you envision them. That would really help me see how you're tying this all together here, especially how you see all these conflicts and so forth occurring and resolving once in play.
Any chance you would be able to type up something like that soon?
Good idea, Raven. I've got a fair amount going on right now, but I've started on it and should have one done in a couple of days. I'll probably post the planetside portion when its complete, then the relationships when I get some more time.
QuoteI was thinking, "Hey, it'll be cool to see how the characters interact," but then I restricted it to algorithms so it pretty much was the roleplaying equivalent of interaction in the Sims,
Yes, but what's wrong with that? Why isn't that still a valid base to work from?
Look, I think your going with something you like now, but I also think what you had before was something else you like - and it's not being explored any more. In a simulationist actual play thread I was once told "not to bring in the god damn narrativism". I think this thread could have done with the same advice - but as soon as relationships get mentioned, everyone 'knows' what it must be about and bring up the obvious 'faults' in the design. I wonder how much potential there was for something different here.
(I figure I can get away with bringing back this thread since it's the top thread on page 2, which is really close to page 1.)
Yeah, sure.
Let's see. In this example, I'm going to be assuming that each player has control of one character, and there's no bidding or anything like that involved in character control. Also, I'll be assuming that they've all gone through some introductory interactions like what I have envisioned, and they already have at least one facet to each of their relationships. No backgrounds in this example, either. Just the main two parts of the system. Here's the character sheets:
Harold
-A rich American ex-con who bought his way onto the ship.
Survival: 5
Relationships
Minh:
"I don't think she can take care of herself."
Devaratha:
"He won't mind his own business."
Ludomir:
"Can't be trusted."
Minh
-A fiercely independent young Vietnamese woman who ran away from her family to find a way onto the ship.
Survival: 5
Relationships
Harold:
"Too quiet for my tastes."
Devaratha:
"The only one here who understands me."
Ludomir:
"I think he's nicer than he lets on."
Devaratha
-A charismatic Indian man who was one of the first wave of applicants accepted to the ship.
Survival: 5
Relationships
Harold:
"Silent loners don't inspire trust."
Minh:
"I'll bed her in a week."
Ludomir:
"He's probably the one who'll keep us all alive."
Ludomir
-A resilient, strong-willed eastern European who was just on the upper edge of the age range to be allowed onto the ship.
Survival: 5
Relationships
Harold:
"He's always watching."
Minh:
"She needs protection, but not from anything we might find on the planet."
Devaratha:
"I can trust him to help me survive, but not for anything else."
Alright, for purposes of this, everyone has one facet to their relationships with each other character. I'm envisioning a more fluid process for developing some relationships before the first threat, probably something completely resolved through drama.
I'm doing actual dice rolls, so essentially I'm playing the role of all four players and the GM, seeing how the system works.
They encounter the first planet, and the probe suggests atmospheric composition very much like that of Earth. The team goes down in the shuttle, and as they get closer, they see several large cityscapes dotting the landscape, and pick one to land near. The set down in an open field on the outskirts of one of the alien cities, which is formed of long, flat buildings, with very few parts of the cityscape rising above two stories. The buildings are made from some sort of white plastic-like material, and they're all very architechturally smooth, with hardly any sharp edges. They have doors that open automatically to motion, with a slight *woosh* and a soft tone, and the interiors are filled with alien furniture and soft lighting that automatically lights up when someone enters the room.
Minh goes out to collect soil and water samples. Devaratha decides to tag along, bringing along an assault rifle for "added protection." Harold and Ludomir set up in one of the buildings, taking more detailed atmospheric readings, and start looking around the city for any sign of where it came from. They don't find a whole lot, but see no signs of deterioration anywhere in the city, almost like it was abandoned yesterday. Minh and Devaratha come back at dusk, and the team begins to analyze the samples. As night falls, Harold, who is completely uninterested in the samples, goes to look around the alien building they're in some more.
The GM tells the players to roll their survival dice, starting a threat. He rolls a challenge die for each character.
Harold gets 6,6,3,2,2 with a challenge of 4
Minh gets 6,6,5,3,2 with a challenge of 5
Devaratha gets 5,5,4,3,1 with a challenge of 2
Ludomir gets 6,5,5,4,3 with a challenge of 5
The first challenge to be resolved is Minh and Ludomir's.
GM: "Ludomir, you hear a soft tone and a door whooshing open behind you. When you turn to look, you see a strange-looking alien humanoid, about four feet tall, with smooth skin and a three eye stalks forming a sort of crown on the top of the head. It's moving towards you, almost mechanically, with steady movements like someone learning to walk. Its face is featureless, except for a wicked looking, razor-sharp beak like a squid's. The only noise it makes is it's mouth snapping open and shut, and its feet padding on the soft floor. It hits a table and throws it to the side with almost preternatural strength."
Ludomir: "What the fuck is that?"
GM: "Minh, you look up quickly from the analytical device, but your vision swims. You start to feel sweat forming on your brow, and through your blurred vision you can see a red warning light blinking on the inside of your helmet. The one that means, 'seal compromised.'"
Minh: "Uh-oh. I grit my teeth and try to clear my head." She puts forward her 6 and 3 to meet the challenge. "And I hold my breath."
Ludomir: "I'm going to draw my pistol and blow its head off." He puts forward two 5's to meet.
The GM rolls complications. He rolls a 4 for Minh's challenge, giving him a total of 9. Minh's 6 and 3 meet that, so the GM goes ahead and narrates.
GM: "Minh, your vision clears. Just long enough for you to see part of the results from a plant sample you brought back. It's dead. In fact, the carbon dating test has come out at the maximum possible value. That means it's been dead for over 60,000 years."
Minh: "What's that supposed to mean?"
The GM is silent, and rolls a 5 for Ludomir's challenge, for a total of 10, which Ludomir's two 5's barely meet.
GM: "Your bullets jerk the alien back, and drop it on the floor. There's a big hole in its forehead now, with black blood oozing from it and pooling on the floor."
Those challenges resolved, the GM moves on to the next challenge, Harold's.
GM: "Harold, you're looking around one of the rooms in the complex, when you hear one of the doors open behind you with a soft tone."
Harold: "Huh, I'll turn around to greet whoever followed me."
GM: "Guess what? It's one of those aliens. Its just about right on top of you, too, and its beak is snapping excitedly."
Harold: "I'm going to shoot it with my assault rifle." He puts forward a 3 and 6 to meet.
The GM rolls Harold's complication. It comes up a 6, which brings his total to one higher than Harold's meet.
GM: "Your bullets blow off two of its eye stalks, but it grabs you by the hips and plunges its beak into your flesh, biting down."
Harold: "Holy shit! Little help, guys?"
The GM looks to Minh. Her 6 is tied for highest showing die with Ludomir, but her next highest die is higher than his, so she gets the first opportunity to help.
Minh: "I'm a little busy trying to hold my breath and seal my helmet."
Ludomir has a a six as well, so he's next: "Devaratha, go help him! I'll help Minh."
Devaratha: "No, I'm going to stay here and help Minh. You go help him."
Ludomir: "If something caught Harold unawares, he must be in trouble." He's invoking his "He's always watching" facet of his relationship with Harold. Reluctantly, he glares at Devaratha's player and puts forward his 3 to help Harold see. "I run to where Harold is, and when I see him and the alien, I put one bullet through the alien's head."
GM: "It drops like a stone. Harold's badly wounded."
Ludomir: "Shit, let's get out of here. We'll patch you up on the ship."
Harold: "Sounds good to me."
The GM moves on to Devaratha's challenge.
GM: "Minh, Devaratha's helping you, trying to find the break in the seal, when you see a shadow cast from the door behind him. It's quickly joined by several more."
Minh: "I can't talk, since I'm holding my breath, but I'll point behind Devaratha to catch his attention."
Devaratha: "I turn around, and clamber to pick my shotgun up from where I left it propped against the table."
(Note: I'm playing it fast and loose with the belongings, I'll figure either they can load up before they go down to the planet, or they'll just have whatever seems appropriate for the scene.)
GM: "You see several aliens shambling through the door towards you. There's more behind them."
Devaratha: "I'm going to just start shooting the shotgun into the doorway until I don't see movement anymore." He puts forward a 5 and a 3, which is enough to meet the challenge even if the GM rolls a 6, so the GM doesn't bother to roll a complication.
GM: "The sting in your ears from the sound of the initial blast becomes just a dull ringing by the time your shotgun runs out of ammo, and black blood is staining every surface behind the mangled corpses of the seven aliens you've dropped."
Devaratha: "Alright, I'll reload."
Minh: "Uh..."
Devaratha: "Shit, I mean I'll help Minh."
The GM starts a new round of challenges. He rolls a 4 for Harold, a 4 for Minh, a 3 for Devaratha, and a 5 for Ludomir. Ludomir's challenge is first to resolve.
GM: "Alright, Ludomir, you, with Harold's arm around your shoulder for support, get back to the room after hearing eight loud shotgun blasts. You see Devaratha still trying to help Minh. You see black blood pooling in a doorway, and when you take a look you see several mangled corpses oozing on the floor."
Ludomir: "Damn. Alright, I'll set Harold down up against a wall or something."
GM: "As you're gently setting Harold down, you feel something grab your ankle and claw at your leg."
Ludomir: "What the hell?"
GM: "It's torso from one of the mangled corpses, which apparently crawled across the floor to get you. It's legs are being dragged along behind it, apparently attached by thin strips of flesh."
Ludomir: "I'm grabbing my pistol from where I stuffed it in my pants and putting bullets in its torso until it stops moving." He puts forward his final two dice, a 6 and 4, to meet.
The GM rolls his complication, a 5. Ludomir meets the challenge, but he's out of dice. Next are Harold and Minh.
GM: "Harold, you start to feel dizzy, and start to sweat. A second later you vomit on the inside of your helmet, and begin to lose consciousness."
GM: "Minh, you're running out of breath, and the dizziness is hitting you again."
Harold: "I'm going to grit my teeth and try come to my feet. I don't want to show any weakness." He puts forward a 4 and 6.
Minh: "I'm going to find the loose latch on my helmet, seal it, and press the button that vents the tainted air out of the suit. I'm assuming they have something like that, right?" She puts forward a 5 and 6.
GM: "Sure, why not?"
Since both Minh and Harold put forward meets that are at least 6 higher than their challenge dice, the GM doesn't bother to roll for complication.
Minh: "I grab my pistol from off the table and shout. Let's get out of here!"
The GM moves on to Devaratha's challenge.
GM: "What are you doing right now, Devaratha?"
Devaratha: "I guess I'm reloading my shotgun and checking out the next room."
GM: "Alright, you poke your head out through the door and it is instantly met by a clawed hand swiping at it."
Devaratha: "I'm going to calmly dodge away from the claw and pop two shells into whatever it's attached to." He puts forward a 5 and 4, once again enough to meet the challenge plus six, so the GM doesn't roll a complication.
That's where I'll stop, for two reasons:
1) It gets the flow of threats down fairly well, I think.
2) If the GM drops another threat, it will almost certainly kill all of them, considering that the remaining dice are two 2s and a 1, and one character has no dice.
The latter makes me think that I definitely need backgrounds, so the GM can challenge the group when everyone's pools are low on dice. I also think that I need to up the starting Survival to 6 or 7--enough to get the players through at least one more round of challenges before their dice start getting low. The characters rolled great pools, which is probably why there weren't as many opportunities to help other players as I had hoped, but with a slightly higher starting survival, I'd imagine that will happen less often, and there will be more lower dice in several of the pools, forcing more interesting choices about which dice to use to meet challenges.
I'll try to write up an aftermath conflict tomorrow.
Cool, Cyrus, thanks! My main question after reading that is: so the GM can basically keep going until the players have no dice anymore and kill them all if he feels like it? And how do the characters narrate getting off the planet? Does that just happen when the dice are all gone and everyone is done throwing and bidding?
IMO, this confusion/looseness is not a feature, it's a bug. There should be a standard by which to judge the severity of danger on a planet, because most GMs (like me) will be clueless about the math: they won't know how much was too much until it is too late, nor how much is too little (though likely less a problem). My personal preference, which you are free to ignore, would be to limit the GM by giving them a particular number of dice per planet, allowing them to increase that amount in trade with the players for some other resource.
I look forward to seeing how things work once everyone is back on the ship!
Quote from: Cyrus Marriner on October 26, 2005, 07:11:11 PMI'm also considering a third set of traits, backgrounds, which could be invoked by starting "flashback" scenes to gain traits for later use. I kind of wish I hadn't read 3:16 before doing this, since now I feel like I would be ripping it off to add this kind of device to the game.
Heh Cyrus, go for it if you think it fits in with the game. I feel flashbacks could fit in real well. How long have they been adrift for, and how many characters were originally on the ship?
One thing that I thought adrift needed was for the players to get more power in their hands, y'know? You have all this cool stuff for people to do it, and I kinda feel that they should be doing it. Sure, the GM should set it up, poke the conflicts and so on, but at the heart of it let the players play.
I find it really cool how methodical you have been in this thread. Great stuff.
Alright, here's the aftermath conflict.
The characters are all back on the shuttle, strapped in and starting to break the atmosphere and get back to the ship. Harold's been bandaged up, and Minh is still trying to hold down her lunch, so Ludomir is flying with Devaratha riding shotgun.
Ludomir's the only one who helped anyone out during the threat, so he gets an extra die for his pool. He has 11, everybody else has 10. The GM starts the blind bidding process.
-Harold thinks about what he wants most from the other characters, and he decides he wants Ludomir to trust him. So, he bids 4 dice towards that, leaving him with 6 dice for counterbids. It's not as important to him as keeping his wits about him and not being decieved by anyone.
-Minh thinks about what she wants. She wants Ludomir to think that she's competent, since she's kind of ashamed by her problems on the planet. She bids 3 dice towards that purpose, leaving her with 7.
-Devaratha wants Minh to become attracted to him, and probably sleep with him. He bids 7 dice towards this, because he really wants this, and doesn't really care that much about whatever designs other people have on him.
-Ludomir wants Devaratha to know that he's in charge, and their survival depends on his ability to follow orders. He bids 6 dice towards this, leaving him with 5.
This done, all the players reveal their bids, and each has an opportunity to counterbid.
-Nobody has bid to change Harold's mind, so he doesn't have to worry about the counterbid. However, the 6 dice he saved are lost.
-Devaratha bid against Minh, and she responds by bidding all 7 of her dice, since she doesn't have any other bids to contend with.
-Devaratha drops his remaining 3 dice in countering Ludomir's bid, since he doesn't have any other bids to worry about.
-Ludomir doesn't want Harold to get one over on him, so he bids 4 dice against his bid, and puts the remaining single die towards Minh's bid, since he doesn't really mind her goals.
Now that all the pools are set, each aggressor, in no particular order, decides how they want to set up the scene in which they'll try to advance their agendas.
-Harold decides that he'll try to catch up with Ludomir when he's working out. That'll be a good place to show strength and reliability, anyway.
-Minh figures she'll just talk to Ludomir anywhere, and decides she'll catch him alone on the bridge.
-Devaratha wants to comfort the currently sick Minh as soon as the shuttle breaks atmosphere and hits zero-g, when he can unstrap himself from his chair.
-Ludomir decides he'll confront Devaratha in his room, a few days after they get back to the ship.
Since they've all set the scene, they start resolving them, in any order that makes sense to the progression of the story. Devaratha's is obviously the first one, since it takes place on the shuttle as soon as they enter zero-g. They roll their dice. Devaratha has 6,6,6,4,3,1,1 and Minh has 6,6,4,2,1,1,1. Devaratha's player starts the scene:
Devaratha: "As soon as I feel the weightlessness of space take over, I unlatch myself and head back to where Minh is strapped down."
Minh: "Alright, am I still feeling sick?"
GM: "Yeah, you have a fever, you're a little chilled, and your stomach is still upset."
Minh: "Okay, just checking."
Devaratha: "I push off of the chair to float over to where she is, and when I get there, I grab lightly onto her arm to slow myself. 'Are you feeling okay?'" He puts forward a 6 and 1.
Minh: "'No, I'm not.' I'm going to brusquely brush his hand off of me." She also puts forward a 6 and 1.
Devaratha: "I'm going to look embarassed for a moment. 'Oh, I apologize, I merely needed to stop myself. I hope I wasn't too untoward.' I'll give her a soft smile." He puts forward a 4 and 6.
Minh: "I'm nauseous, you said?"
GM: "Yeah."
Minh: "I'm going to throw up in my helmet." She puts forward her 4 and 6 to meet.
Devaratha: "Uh, well. Okay, I'm going to take off her helmet." He puts forward his 3 and 1, in hopes his 6 can finish her off, if she can meet this. He has something good in mind, too.
Minh: "I'm going to reach up to his arm and stop him. 'I'm not sure it's safe.'" She puts forward her 2, 1, and 1 to meet.
Devaratha: "I'm going to ignore her and take off her helmet anyway. I grab a towel from one of the compartments I would imagine is near the bed, and gently wipe off her face. 'Don't worry, it'll be alright. You're looking good already. Like you usually do.' I'll shoot her another of my winning smiles." He puts forward his 6.
Minh: She has no dice to meet, and she doesn't really think she can find a good way to invoke her relationships, so she concedes. "Alright, I'll weakly smile back, and ever so slightly blush at his words. 'Thanks.'"
Devaratha: "'You going to be okay?'"
Minh: "'Yeah, thanks.'"
Devaratha: "I'll clasp her hand for a moment, then push off."
That's the end of the scene, so they both add a facet to their relationships. Minh adds the facet, "He's almost too good to be true." Both her player and Devaratha's player agree this is a pretty good facet to represent Devaratha advancing his agenda. Devaratha adds "I almost feel guilty," to his relationship wth Minh.
They get back to the ship, with GM narration, and then Minh's player decides she wants to do her scene. She rolls her 3 dice, getting 2,2,4. Ludomir rolls his 1 die and gets a 4. Minh's player initiates the scene.
Minh: "A few days after we get back, I notice Ludomir going alone to the bridge. I wait a few minutes, and then try to catch up with him there. I pull myself up into the bridge. 'Hi.'"
Ludomir: "I look up from what I'm reading on the computer console. 'Oh, hello.'"
Minh: "Do you have a moment?"
Ludomir: "Sure."
Minh: "I just wanted to know if you still trust me. To do my job." She puts forward her 2 and 4 to challenge.
Ludomir: "What?"
Minh: "I mean, I kind of panicked down there."
Ludomir: "Oh, right. Well, it was understandable. Equipment malfunction. I checked the suit once we got back and you were safe, it wasn't your fault." He concedes the challenge.
Minh: "Oh, good. Well, that was all I wanted to say."
The brief scene ends, and Ludomir writes down the facet "I can rely on her," which is pretty much exactly what she wanted, so Minh okays the facet. Minh writes down "A lot more going on than I thought," as a facet for her relationship with Ludomir.
Ludomir wants to do his scene with Devaratha, next. He and Devaratha roll their dice, getting 6,5,4,4,3,1 and 6,3,1, respectively. Ludomir opens the scene.
Ludomir: "While Minh and Harold are occupied elsewhere, I'm going to try to catch Devaratha in his quarters. I'll knock sharply, twice, on his door."
Devaratha: "I'm kind of floating in the zero-g, reading a book from the library. Make it Catcher in the Rye, even. 'Enter.'"
Ludomir: "I open the door, and pull in, stabilizing myself on one of the handholds on the wall. 'We need to speak.'"
Devaratha: "About what?"
Ludomir: "You didn't listen to me down there. I need to know that you'll follow my orders." He leads with a 4 and 1.
Devaratha: "I don't see why you are automatically the leader. Did we have a vote?" He meets with his 6.
Ludomir: "A vote isn't necessary. I'm the best."
Devaratha: "What qualifies you as the best?"
Ludomir: "I have a background."
Devaratha: "What sort of background?"
Ludomir: "Ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia. I'm a survivor. I know how to survive, and you will listen to me when I tell you to do something. If you don't like it, fine. If you won't do it, fine. Tell me now, though, so I can know if you're worth my time when we're down on the planet." He challenges with his 6 and 5.
Devaratha: "My apologies. In the future, I will endeavour to heed your words on the planet." He concedes.
Ludomir: "That's good to hear. Trust me, I've come through worse than we dealt with down there."
Devaratha: "How good to hear."
That concludes that scene. Devaratha adds "The one to listen to," to his relationship with Ludomir. Ludomir adds "Willing to swallow his pride," to his relationship with Devaratha.
The only scene left is Harold's with Ludomir. Both players roll their dice. Harold gets 6,3,2,1 and Ludomir gets 6,6,2,2.
Harold: "I'll walk into the gym where Ludomir is working out. 'Hey.'"
Ludomir: "I'll give him a respectful nod of acknowledgment, and continue working out."
Harold: "I'll work out quietly with him for a few moments, and give him the opportunity to say the first words."
Ludomir: "I guess your wound's healed enough to work out again?"
Harold: "Yeah, but it still hurts a little. The workout is important."
Ludomir: "Hmn."
Harold: "I'll let a few more minutes of silence before I speak up again. 'I know that I owe you.'" He puts forward his 3 and 2.
Ludomir: "Yes?"
Harold: "I owe you a debt for back on the planet. I want you to know that I will make sure that debt is paid. I'm a man of my word."
Ludomir: "Oh. Think nothing of it. It was merely a wise tactical decision." He meets with a 6.
Harold: "That may be how you view it, but I see it as a sign of trust. I know that I can trust you, now." He challenges with his 6 and 1.
Ludomir: "I do not place such trust so easily. I will merely assume you can see the benefits my survival provides to our team." He meets with a 6 and 2.
Harold can't put forward any more challenges, so he concedes.
Harold: "I think I consider that a kind of trust."
Ludomir: "'Consider it what you want, it matters little to me.' I won't speak any more after that."
After the scene, Ludomir writes down "Honorable, but suspicious" for his facet of his relationship with Harold. Without the "but suspicious," this could easily be the facet if Harold had won the scene. Harold writes down, "Cold sonuvabitch" for his facet.
Then, after that, they go to another planet, and deal with the new threat and the aftermath. To recap, now the character sheets look like this:
Harold
-A rich American ex-con who bought his way onto the ship.
Survival: 6
Relationships
Minh:
"I don't think she can take care of herself."
Devaratha:
"He won't mind his own business."
Ludomir:
"Can't be trusted."
"Cold sonuvabitch."
Minh
-A fiercely independent young Vietnamese woman who ran away from her family to find a way onto the ship.
Survival: 6
Relationships
Harold:
"Too quiet for my tastes."
Devaratha:
"The only one here who understands me."
"He's almost too good to be true."
Ludomir:
"I think he's nicer than he let's on."
"A lot more going on than I thought."
Devaratha
-A charismatic Indian man who was one of the first wave of applicants accepted to the ship.
Survival: 6
Relationships
Harold:
"Silent loners don't inspire trust."
Minh:
"I'll bed her in a week."
"I almost feel guilty."
Ludomir:
"He's probably the one who'll keep us all alive."
"The one to listen to."
Ludomir
-A resilient, strong-willed eastern European who was just on the upper edge of the age range to be allowed onto the ship.
Survival: 6
Relationships
Harold:
"He's always watching."
"Honorable, but suspicious."
Minh:
"She needs protection, but not from anything we might find on the planet."
"I can rely on her."
Devaratha:
"I can trust him to help me survive, but not for anything else."
"Willing to swallow his pride."
Cyrus,
Interesting. However, I notice that the example is missing a use of inter-character relationships. Does that function just as a "Ok, I use my relationship with this guy to nab some extra dice"? If the person you have a relationship with doesn't have any dice left, doesn't that pretty much screw you over? What's the point of having relationships if you can't USE them on more than an occassional basis?
Okay, I learned a lot from the play example. Thanks for the suggestion, Raven.
Here are the things I think I need to do:
1) Facilitate a way for characters to conflict outside of the aftermath conflicts. While I was writing up the second part of play, I thought, "Damn, why are they just going to let the infected dudes back onto the ship? How do they know the virus is gone now? Are they willing to take the risk? And how cool would it be if Ludomir and Harold disagreed with what to do with the others?" I realized that this would make for some awesome roleplaying, and I had no way to handle it. So I'm thinking I might need to expand the character creation process to include traits that would relate to conflict outside of the two situations.
2) I need to set up the threats so that way characters are forced to help each other. I was hoping that the element of fortune involved would force players into making calculated risks, but every player can also just play it safe and force the GM to kill all of them if he wants to kill one of them. I want players to die, but I don't want the first session to be a total party kill. I almost want to go back to leaving it up to GM fiat, which still seems to unfair. Still, a sample of one play isn't exactly something I can draw a conclusion from, so I'll run through a few more sample threats, and mess with the number of dice the players get a little bit.
3) I want backgrounds, but I need some sort of resolution system for them. The way I'm thinking about the background is that each player writes three of their character's formative experiences on the character sheet, and then when they invoke their backgrounds, they roleplay a scene in order to get a facet added to their background that they can use to get dice, like a relationship. I don't want a player to just invoke his background and get some dice, I want there to be some sort of element of risk involved. Which means I need to set up some form of conflict resolution that's outside of the current scope of the game. Which means I probably need to expand character creation.
4) The idea of each player having one character and all of them going down to the planet doesn't make sense in the setting. I want there to be multiple characters, but I'm still not sure how to handle ownership. I'm thinking expanding the bidding system so you can bid on characters to go planetside with, and then players can bid dice on behalf of any character to meet a challenge.
5) I need to bring back the emphasis on death and loss. This is another reason I want to expand the number of characters, so characters can die and it won't just be, "Oh, unfreeze another one." I need to add real mechanical effects for death, along the lines of getting several dice when you try to use a dead guy to advance your agenda. There needs to be the potential for it to backfire, though.
Here are some of the ideas I'm tossing around right now. There were a few above, but these are mainly modifications to the core of the system as it stands right now, as opposed to new elements to add.
1) Characters can not only invoke their relationships with characters that they're helping, but also they can invoke their relationships with other characters and the other character's relationship with the character they're helping. That's kind of hard to phrase, so here's an example of something the characters above might be able to do: Devaratha needs help, and Harold doesn't want to help him. But his player announces that he's going to help him, because he knows Minh cares about him (The facet of Minh's relationship with Devaratha, "He's the only one here who understands me.") and he doesn't want Minh to hurt herself trying to help him (The facet of his relationship with Minh, "I don't think she can take care of herself.") so he invokes those two relationships to help Devaratha. Something like that, if you can see what I'm going at.
2) When you invoke a relationship to help someone, you give them one of your dice, and they also get to roll an additional die that they can add to their pool or use to meet the current challenge. This will give people cause to aid one another, but it won't make helping completely without repercussions. If you invoke two or more relationships to give someone a die, they only get one, though.
3) Instead of rolling one die for each player for the threat, the GM rolls two, each a different color. I like green and red. The green die is a safety die, and the red is a challenge die. If the green die is higher, then the character doesn't get challenged by the threat. If the red die is higher, they do. If they're the same, then I have to come up with an effect. Hopefully, this will make the numbers the players have to hit higher, giving them more opportunities to aid one another. Also, the green die would determine the order of opportunity to help. Oh, and each player wouldn't be getting challenged every turn, so they won't all run out of dice at the same time.
4) You get extra dice when you confront someone you helped in the aftermath, in addition to the extra dice you get for your bidding pool. One die for each die you gave to help the character you're confronting, right at the start of the conflict.
5) You can bid against multiple characters with one pool, and have your scene include both characters, who combine their counterbids into a single pool. Also, I'm thinking about adding a way that you can bid to change other characters' relationships with characters that aren't yours, which is contested by a pool made of dice bid by both the character you're confonting and the character of the relationship you're trying to change. For example, Ludomir could try to get Minh suspicious of Devaratha with his bid, and Devaratha and Minh would both counterbid.
That's what I'm thinking about for now. Sorry I haven't replied directly to you, Callan, Gregor, and Raven, I'll try to get to that soon. Right now I just wanted to get my thoughts in order and out there. I need to think a little bit more at the moment.
Alright, now that I've got those last three hefty posts out, let me address a few people's comments.
Callan, you're right. It might make for an interesting game. Would it be fun, though? When I stepped back and took a look at it, it wasn't something that I thought I would have fun playing, which was where I decided I needed to stop and attack it from a different tack. It could be fun to see how the relationships fall out, kind of like how in the Sims the interesting part is seeing the effects of the choices you made. And building your house. Still, the Sims operates on a complex level behind the scenes, while the original rules are right there in front of you. You're not going to be surprised, just like how you're not going to be surprised by the behavior in the Sims if you wrote all the AI code. After Ron's initial feedback, I thought about it and it pretty much came down to, "Do I want the fun to be in seeing what results the system produces, or do I want the players to have fun by making choices and roleplaying?" Not that either of those is necessarily a bad thing, I just felt that the system wasn't complex or fine-tuned enough to surprise the players with the results of the very few choices they got to make. Which is why I made that call.
Gregor, if you take a look at a few of my thoughts above, you'll see that I agree with your advice, and the system does need to facilitate interesting things the player would want to do outside of the two main parts of the game. In the end, I'll have three discrete systems: one for handling the threats, one for handling the character interactions in the wake of the threats, and one for handling general conflict resolution that occurs outside of those two parts of the game. Which I must admit I am stumped on at the moment.
Raven, you're right. I didn't think about using the relationships until after I had written and posted the play example. I was focused entirely on the straight and narrow of the core mechanics, and forgot about the other mechanics, and they didn't really provide an opportunity to inject themselves into the conflicts. Is this a problem with the system, or just a natural result of me giving all of them such hostile relationships with one another? I'm not sure yet. The system still has a lot of work to go, though.
Thanks to all three of you for your feedback,
Cyrus
Hi Cyrus,
I get you. I thought perhaps there might have been the potential for focus on 'what's in the black box' sort of questions. Like having a box with something inside...you rattle it around and try and guess what it is. Here you roll the dice and try and 'guess' the game world reasons behind that result. The guess is really a player invention and addition to the SIS.
Really what may have been lacking it getting players to articulate these inventions and perhaps also to draw on previous ones to do so.