Okay, this is my first post here, so be kind. :)
Anyway, I am putting together an RPG where the characters all wake up in a city with complete amnesia. There is a reason in the backstory why this happens, but players and characters will have no idea why right away. Rolling up the characters will be completely random. Not just stats, but actually the skills as well. The characters know how to do things, they just have no idea why they know. At certain points in the game, characters will experience flashbacks, where a piece of their memory is returned to them. When this happens, the other players actually act as temporary Game Masters, becoming characters from the memory. They are able to control the story to an extent, however, the character having the flashback will have a pool of points by which he or she may override the elements of the story the other players have created, though he or she must do so through role-playing.
***
Ex: (Flashback Character, Player 1)
Player 1: You, how could you have done that? How could you have murdered him?!
Flashback Character (Spending the points to override): It wasn't me! You know it wasn't me! You were with me that night!
***
That's obviously a oversimplified example, but you get the idea.
Eventually, the characters will be completely developed, with interesting back stories, and some insight into how and why they know the things they know (Ex. their randomly generated skills). There will still be the story of the city and why they were brought their to contend with, but that's another post.
Anyway, my question to you all is what type of system would lend itself to complete random character generation. D20 is too rules heavy for what I'd like to do. I really like FUDGE for something like this, but I really don't like the fact that FUDGE uses special dice (even though they're easy enough to make). I would like to use either D6, D10, or, D20 dice as they are the most common.
Can anyone point me in the right direction? I have some great ideas, but systems have never been my thing.
Thanks in Advance.
Chris
Hey Chris, welcome to The Forge.
QuoteAnyway, I am putting together an RPG where the characters all wake up in a city with complete amnesia. There is a reason in the backstory why this happens, but players and characters will have no idea why right away. Rolling up the characters will be completely random. Not just stats, but actually the skills as well. The characters know how to do things, they just have no idea why they know. At certain points in the game, characters will experience flashbacks, where a piece of their memory is returned to them. When this happens, the other players actually act as temporary Game Masters, becoming characters from the memory. They are able to control the story to an extent, however, the character having the flashback will have a pool of points by which he or she may override the elements of the story the other players have created, though he or she must do so through role-playing.
Love the general concept.
"Not just stats, but actually the skills as well."
What do you mean by this? What would the "stats" and "skills" be?
Are you implying that the game would have d20-ish stats and skills?
I am a little leery about the "have a randomly drawn up character" concept.
What if I start with a blank character, and can kinda introduce stuff as I use it?
Like... I'm being chased by some man in black, and I have no idea why (damn amnesia!)
I duck into a back alley, and... *makes a certain roll, spends some points, or does some kind of test*... realize that I have Climb Walls (Superior).
And then, from that point on, I just happen to have Climb Walls at a Superior rating... But at some point need to justify that with flashbacks.
I dunno. Just a thought.
QuoteAnyway, my question to you all is what type of system would lend itself to complete random character generation. D20 is too rules heavy for what I'd like to do. I really like FUDGE for something like this, but I really don't like the fact that FUDGE uses special dice (even though they're easy enough to make). I would like to use either D6, D10, or, D20 dice as they are the most common.
My suggestion - This is a really cool idea. One that doesn't benefit much from the types of systems you mention.
Why not create your own system - one that's CENTERED around the idea of recovering your identity, and one that's totally designed for facilitating flashbacks, confusion, and amnesia?
This sounds great. Use d6 as they are readily available and have at least 10 dice for each player. The players will have no idea how the game works. Part of the amnesia is that they don't know the game system. It will affect the players as well as the characters.
As the characters encounter whatever it is you throw at them, they get to say what they are doing. The players agree on what that action is called. They all write down the action and secretly choose to have that action or not. Players reveal if they do or don't. If only one person has the action then they get 6 dice. That character rolls 6 dice for the action and successes are 3 or greater showing on each die. If two people choose that action to use then they have a 5 in that action. Three people means a 4 in that action and so on. Players are then encouraged to act in a variety of ways to balance their characters. However, they are developing their characters and will act they way they want. Also, not every player will want to have that action as more people means less skill in that action. The process of developing continues until one character has 10 actions. Those characters with less than 10 actions must fill their remaining slots and will have only a skill level of two. This process of development will create a variety of characters as they may share some actions, but not all characters have the same actions. A character can attempt to perform any action but can only roll 1 die.
Action Difficulty
Very easy - 1 success
Easy - 2
Average - 3
Hard - 4
Very Difficult - 5
Finally, the 10 dice come into play. Each player can keep all 10 dice in their action pool or allocate as many as they want to actions. They can increase the number of dice they roll in an action by 1 by permanently discarding two dice. They can also increase another player's action by 1 by permanently spending only one die. Players are allowed to "help" each other by mutually spending their dice to increase actions. If a player started with 10 action dice and wanted to increase "drive mecha" from 3 to 4, he would spend 2 dice, reducing his action pool to 8. If he wanted to increase another player's action then he would only need to spend one die. An action can only be increased one time. Action dice are used during the game when a player wants to roll an additional die when performing an action. Their pool is reduced by one. At the end of the adventure the players receive another action dice.
At this point, the characters have their actions and skill level in each.
During the adventure each player has the option of selecting a new action for their character as the story unfolds. The other players choose to have that action or not and the same process applies. One player get 6 dice, two players get 5 dice each, and so on.
I'm not sure what's next.
Troy
Quote from: TroyLovesRPG on September 30, 2006, 02:56:22 AM
An action can only be increased one time.
My mistake. This should read:
An action can only be increased one time per adventure.
Quote from: joepub on September 30, 2006, 02:49:03 AM
Hey Chris, welcome to The Forge.
QuoteAnyway, I am putting together an RPG where the characters all wake up in a city with complete amnesia. There is a reason in the backstory why this happens, but players and characters will have no idea why right away. Rolling up the characters will be completely random. Not just stats, but actually the skills as well. The characters know how to do things, they just have no idea why they know. At certain points in the game, characters will experience flashbacks, where a piece of their memory is returned to them. When this happens, the other players actually act as temporary Game Masters, becoming characters from the memory. They are able to control the story to an extent, however, the character having the flashback will have a pool of points by which he or she may override the elements of the story the other players have created, though he or she must do so through role-playing.
Love the general concept.
"Not just stats, but actually the skills as well."
What do you mean by this? What would the "stats" and "skills" be?
Are you implying that the game would have d20-ish stats and skills?
I am a little leery about the "have a randomly drawn up character" concept.
What if I start with a blank character, and can kinda introduce stuff as I use it?
Like... I'm being chased by some man in black, and I have no idea why (damn amnesia!)
I duck into a back alley, and... *makes a certain roll, spends some points, or does some kind of test*... realize that I have Climb Walls (Superior).
And then, from that point on, I just happen to have Climb Walls at a Superior rating... But at some point need to justify that with flashbacks.
I dunno. Just a thought.
QuoteAnyway, my question to you all is what type of system would lend itself to complete random character generation. D20 is too rules heavy for what I'd like to do. I really like FUDGE for something like this, but I really don't like the fact that FUDGE uses special dice (even though they're easy enough to make). I would like to use either D6, D10, or, D20 dice as they are the most common.
My suggestion - This is a really cool idea. One that doesn't benefit much from the types of systems you mention.
Why not create your own system - one that's CENTERED around the idea of recovering your identity, and one that's totally designed for facilitating flashbacks, confusion, and amnesia?
Sorry about that last post. Still new to the forum thing. :)
Not just stats, but actually the skills as well."
What do you mean by this? What would the "stats" and "skills" be?
Are you implying that the game would have d20-ish stats and skills?
Well, sorta. I was thinking of using an attribute+skill vs target number system mechanic. But what I meant by this was that the stats would be the attributes and the skills would be chosen randomly. This wouldn't be a point buy system of character creation. So the attributes would be random as well as the skills. Players would know nothing about their characters before they play. Only through the play would they learn who their characters were and where they came from.
When they arrive in the city, they are placed together as a "Family Unit" They are issued living quarters and jobs and exist as a family unit. However, as they begin to learn more of who they are, those relationships may strengthen or fall apart depending on their pasts. I don't know that this would be everyone's cup of tea, but it would require true role-playing by its very nature. Which is why I want to develope a rules-lite system so that there would be more room for developement of character uninhibited by crunchiness.
Imagine that your character has been the voice of reason in the group. His skills are combat heavy, but he uses his skills for defense rather than the offensive. Yet, through the flashbacks, you discover that he was a violent and relentless criminal, wanted in several states. How does he react to this? If the other players find out, can they still trust him?
Those are the types things I'd like characters to be able to explore.
QuoteI was thinking of using an attribute+skill vs target number system mechanic.
Hm. I think you might be putting the horse before the cart here. I think you should start with your premise, and create mechanics that help you deliver on this kind of game.
I think a task-based system (by that, I mean a system which says "roll to see if you can pick the lock/stab the bad guy") isn't well suited to this kind of game.
QuoteWhen they arrive in the city, they are placed together as a "Family Unit" They are issued living quarters and jobs and exist as a family unit. However, as they begin to learn more of who they are, those relationships may strengthen or fall apart depending on their pasts. I don't know that this would be everyone's cup of tea, but it would require true role-playing by its very nature. Which is why I want to develope a rules-lite system so that there would be more room for developement of character uninhibited by crunchiness.
Imagine that your character has been the voice of reason in the group. His skills are combat heavy, but he uses his skills for defense rather than the offensive. Yet, through the flashbacks, you discover that he was a violent and relentless criminal, wanted in several states. How does he react to this? If the other players find out, can they still trust him?
Those are the types things I'd like characters to be able to explore.
Me and Troy have both suggested totally different but cool ways you can create a game about flashbacks, rediscovering yourself, and such.
What do you think of them?
I think mechanics that let you either do-awesome-stuff-now OR remember-part-of-your-past would be really cool to incorporate.
If the game gave you the option to focus on becoming the person you were, or the person you will be... Yeah, it'd rock.
Earwig,
I like the role-playing aspects you would want for the players to experience. Maybe you should forget about mechanics and think about the setting and what the characters will encounter. Honestly, every way of expressing stats, attributes, skills, etc. has been done. Numbers and some mathematical symbols don't contribute to good roleplaying. It takes ideas, words and conversation among the players. Also, imagination and a willingness to let go of current RPG standards will make your game stand out, instead of it landing on the 20th page of the forum.
I would want to play in a game like this, where the characters are naive and evolve. Remember Goldie Hawn's character in Overboard. She is thrust into a family, thinking she is the wife and mother, learns about her abilities "I can speak French!" all along developing relationships she would never have otherwise. That goes against the grain of most RPGs where you have to calculate, cross-index and thumb through 20 books trying to develop a character whose soul purpose is to just survive.
Think about the characters as if you are writing a story. Tell us about their actions, thoughts and emotions. I can remember playing D&D in high school when we seldom looked at our character sheets. I was a dwarf miner with a love of beer and long stories. I whispered to the rocks and they told me secrets about the depths. I could plant myself where I stood and withstand the most fearsome charge. My hammer was taller than me and reached where I could not. I ate with hands and let my faithful hound licked my face clean. I learned my great-grandfather died at the hands of the drow and I vowed to avenge him.
Where have the RPGs gone?
Quote from: earwig on September 30, 2006, 01:23:41 AM
***
Ex: (Flashback Character, Player 1)
Player 1: You, how could you have done that? How could you have murdered him?!
Flashback Character (Spending the points to override): It wasn't me! You know it wasn't me! You were with me that night!
***
Just an idea, but instead of a 'spend points to stop the other player entirely' perhaps they can spend points to bend the other players idea, like "Yes, I shot him. But I had a gun to my head myself" or require they add even more "a gun held by my ex lover". They can only spend the point if they add a twist (whatever a twist is to them).
Wanky hypothesis: I think weve all been stung by GM's pushing certain stuff down our throats, so 'make that stop' points seem good. Probably a good idea to forget the past pushing and realise a mechanic that handles this will protect you even if it involve blending what you want with what the other player wants. So no need to make it that the player can spend points to just stop another players input.
earwig, I'll chime in and let you know that there's at least one other person who finds your concept very cool.
I'll also reinforce what Joe said -- don't just try to slap some other system on your idea. Your idea's good. it deserves its own system that makes it shine.
finally, you mentioned a stat+skill combo. In my experience, this is a really bad idea. However, the wonderful thing about the internet is that someone else has already articulated my thoughts on the matter pretty well. Check out this older thread (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=18285.msg193158#msg193158), specifically Ralph's comments on the subject. Not only does he do a good job of explaining why S+S is a quagmire, but he also goes on to suggest some creative ways out.
Perhaps I would be better off with something closer to Over the Edge or Dead Inside's system. No attributes, just abilities.
QuoteNo attributes, just abilities.
Chris, reading this line makes me think, "He's probably not had a lot of exposure to indie games and really innovative game concepts."
So... what games have you played? what ones did you like (as far as system and involvement) and why?
You sort of ask "where do I go from here?" in your first post, and I have some ideas:
1.) Post in the Actual Play forum with a time that you played and had fun, and say, "That's what I want my new game to be like. What is that called? What games help deliver THAT coolness?"
2.) Think about the question "What do you want the characters to do?" Is this a track-down-your-past-self mystery? Is this an action game that very much opens in media res?
Do the characters search for themselves? Do they kick ass, but also wonder where their powers come from? Are they ordinary people, superheroes, supernaturally touched, etc?
3.) Some people say that, when designing a system: Come up with a script for the ultimate game session of your game. Write what the players say in-character and out of character. Write where the action is. What tension and excitement arise from. Write this screenplay of awesomeness, then look at it and start to create a system to DELIVER this kind of play.
4.) Read. www.1km1kt.net (http://www.1km1kt.net) would be a good place to start: The games are free PDFs, and many are probably a BIG departure from what you're used to. Check out the games produced in Game Chef (a yearly design competition) for some really, really awesome stuff.
You don't need to do all 4 in that order. I'm just offering you up 4 ways to get in the designing headspace, I guess.
Chris,
I am pretty sure that if you google "Random Character Generator" + "d20", you'll find that someone has computer-automated that process; and is probably giving it away for free. So perhaps the complexity of that system's character sheet isn't an obstacle?
Are you picturing starting the game with a blank sheet and randomly filling-in each item during play. I like starting with a blank sheet. Am less into the idea of pure randomness dictating the 'remembering'. I'd have a harder time caring about a meaningless random character, than one with some story-logic built into his past. But if that doesn't bother you, go right ahead.
If I were developing this idea, I might start with 2 sheets for each character. One made by the GM or another player; and one by the person who will play the PC. The other-player sheet is who each PC starts-out being told he is. The 2nd sheet is who the PC was before the amnesia. One by one, items from the 1st sheet are replaced by items from the 2nd sheet.
From what you've told us so far, I don't see anything that screams "that simply won't work". Instead, I think "hmm... how's he gonna handle that?" --while still being sure that it can be done. And your little sample dialogue is very reassuring-- that you're building a game around an economy of buying 'facts'. Now all you gotta do is figure out a workable economy for the buying. Are you familiar with Universalis? That game has a powerful fact-buying system. Although it may put more of the game design and world design in the players' hands, than you currently envision.
One thing I had been tossing around was the idea of "memory points". The characters start with nothing. When they want to try something, they can see if they remember it. They would roll against their memory points. If they succeed, they gain that ability, and thus spend those "memory points", lowering their pool. At that point, they could go into a flashback, showing a snippet of their life revolving around actions covered by that ability. This way a character could still have some control over their creation, but not complete control over their background.
So for instance, if someone is injured and needs medical attention, the character can try to see of he or she knows anything about that. He or she would roll against her current memory points pool. If successful, that player can spend points out of his or her memory pool in order to to gain that ability. The player would then go into a flashback, giving insight into how they had that ability in the first place. A medical skill could be a paramedic, an army field doc, and back-alley clinic for criminals, almost anything.
This would prevent having to use a skill list, give the players a bit more control over the investment of their characters, and still keep within the basic premise of the game.
JoePub-
Pretty new to the indie-thing. I think Dead Inside would be considered Indie? But even so, I just downloaded it a few weeks ago.
I will check out the sites you suggested.
"The Pool" is a game that blew the minds of many people at the Forge, a few years ago.
The rules are only 4 pages long, and are free online:
http://www.randomordercreations.com/thepool.htm
The character creation system is simple, unique and suited to your amnesia idea.
I think you could start playing your amnesia game right away, with only small alterations to The Pool's rules.
Namely, instead of doing the "50 words" character generation thing first-- just start playing with a blank sheet of paper. When the players want their PCs to 'remember' something-- they have to roll for it-- the same way players roll for everything-else in the game: deciding how many dice they want to gamble in the attempt.
If the roll succeeds, the player has to pay a die for each word added to the character sheet.
For each word the player lets the GM add, the player is paid one die.
On a failed roll, nothing is remembered and the gambled dice are lost, as usual.
--Curly
QuoteInsert Quote
JoePub-
Pretty new to the indie-thing. I think Dead Inside would be considered Indie? But even so, I just downloaded it a few weeks ago.
I will check out the sites you suggested.
Awesome, Chris.
Not sure if Dead Inside is "indie" or not (I think so), but it most certainly is hella cool.
Curly is totally awesome suggesting that you check out The Pool.
QuoteOne thing I had been tossing around was the idea of "memory points". The characters start with nothing. When they want to try something, they can see if they remember it. They would roll against their memory points. If they succeed, they gain that ability, and thus spend those "memory points", lowering their pool. At that point, they could go into a flashback, showing a snippet of their life revolving around actions covered by that ability. This way a character could still have some control over their creation, but not complete control over their background.
So for instance, if someone is injured and needs medical attention, the character can try to see of he or she knows anything about that. He or she would roll against her current memory points pool. If successful, that player can spend points out of his or her memory pool in order to to gain that ability. The player would then go into a flashback, giving insight into how they had that ability in the first place. A medical skill could be a paramedic, an army field doc, and back-alley clinic for criminals, almost anything.
This is awesome, awesome, awesome.
I especially like that I can heal someone, then later realize it's because I was a back-market organ transporter.
Or I can shoot a cop who's chasing me, then later realize my shooting skill comes from being a cop myself.
Some thoughts on this:
-Maybe characters both have a Memory Pool and a Control Pool.
They can put all their dice in their memory pool and remember useful stuff all the time... or put their dice into the Control Pool and be really in control of narrating what goes on in the present... or put their dice in the Control Pool and be really in control of narratnig what goes on in the flashbacks.
-Maybe when testing against Memory there are several possible outcomes: The skill I was testing to have, I have in spades; the skill I was testing to have, I have, but it's problematic; I don't have that skill, but lo and behold - I have a totally different but also useful one; I have no skills.
So if I'm running away from three men in black, I can pull out my gun and hope to hell I know how to shoot. I test. It turns out I have no shooting skill (and all my shots miss) but I do know some mean parkour skills - and climb a fire escape, vault from one building to the next, and totally get away.
Good stuff, Chris! I think this is going to be awesome.
Thanks!
I was also toying with the idea of using the "memory points" to help control the Flashbacks. So while you can use them to overturn someone's scenerio, you also may want to hang on to them in order to "discover" more skills in the future. You'd earn Memory Points like experience points based on your dealings in the Flashback. So the more in-depth you remember, the more of your memory is returned to you.
I was thinking a real broad system at this point (I haven't read The Pool yet, but I will tonight) to run Flashbacks is that everyone at the table rolls a die (possibly even the GM). Whoever rolls highest is the Primary NPC for that Flashback. So that character would have a couple of skills at a decent rating and they would be resposible for drivingthe Flashback (the main character as it were). Everyone else would be "secondary" characters. However, there would have to be some record keeping and a mechanic for any of those characters reoccurring.
QuoteThanks!
I was also toying with the idea of using the "memory points" to help control the Flashbacks. So while you can use them to overturn someone's scenerio, you also may want to hang on to them in order to "discover" more skills in the future.
Awesome. Rock solid awesome.
QuoteYou'd earn Memory Points like experience points based on your dealings in the Flashback
Why?
How does this re-enforce what your game is about?
Also... is there a cap? If remembering better gets me more points, and more points give me better remembering... Does this just keep compacting?
QuoteI was thinking a real broad system at this point (I haven't read The Pool yet, but I will tonight) to run Flashbacks is that everyone at the table rolls a die (possibly even the GM). Whoever rolls highest is the Primary NPC for that Flashback. So that character would have a couple of skills at a decent rating and they would be resposible for drivingthe Flashback (the main character as it were). Everyone else would be "secondary" characters. However, there would have to be some record keeping and a mechanic for any of those characters reoccurring.
Thought: This doesn't seem to fit well as a "party based" game.
It seems like it's best suited to being individual scenes, characters that come into contact but who are "on their own" a lot.
Thought: If flashbacks are driven largely by other players, is there really a need for a GM? What does the GM bring to the game that couldn't be done by the players?
I'm specifically thinking of something like Shock (where the player to your right plays your Antagonist force) or Polaris (where players have formal roles as opposing and assisting forces in a character's story) as GM-less models that'd work awesome here.
If you want me to talk more about how Shock and Polaris do GM-less games, I can.
If you also/alternately want to hear about different types of GM-less games, ask.
Thought: People just roll a die and then get to determine how important they are? That sounds like a bit of a weak delivery for a cool concept.
Alternate idea: When it's my skill, I'm automatically in the flashback. You can spend memory points to put yourself in my flashback too.
So, what do flashbacks serve to do?
I have an idea myself: Each flashback explains the origin of a Skill (that has already been introduced), but ALSO raises a Mystery - something the character brings up, as a Flag (an indication of where they want the game to go.)
Ex. I discover I know how to pick locks.
We flashback to me, picking a lock. Tim pays some Memory to put himself in an ACTIVE ROLE in the scene. He says, "Dude, hurry. We need to get that book!"
I say, "We've got plenty of time. Conrad won't be back for hours."
I then narrate the door behind us opening, and Conrad entering the room.
I then add to my sheet a Mystery. Something like:
-Who was Conrad?
-What book?
-Where Tim and I criminals?
-What happened to Conrad?
That mystery is somewhere the story is going to head, for my character.
...I dunno. Thoughts. What do you think of all that?
Very interesting. I like it.
I agree about the single die roll.
But I think I need to explain the background first.
The players wake up in a city. They have no idea where or who they are. The only memory they have is a dream of a man in a tall tower. They are issued a name and a number through the processing center, and assigned their "Family Unit", which is the rest of the party.
The city is run by a totalitarian government, who claims that they fullfill the will of The Man in the Tower. No one has entered or left the tower in thirty years, and there are rumors (among those brave enough to speak of such things) that the Man in the Tower is dead, and the new government has taken the reins in his absence.
Everyone who comes to the city begins with no memory of their past. They have skills and abilities, yet they have no idea where these abilities came from. Everyone who comes to the city starts out in The Drones, a neighborhood of small, cramped apartments. Here they work menial jobs where if they work hard enough (not to mention sell-out other citizens, help to maintain order, and don't rock the boat) they can rise up through the ranks, moving to better neighborhoods, and have access to greater luxuries. In the meantime, they must deal with poverty, crime, and the government patrols which indiscriminately fight both.
Outside of the government, there is a group known as the Shadow Police. These are groups of four individuals, dressed in trenchcoats, fedoras, and featureless black masks. Whether there are several patrols or it is the same four individuals is unknown. The Shadow Police work on their own agenda. They do not openly support the government or the citizens, they move about on an unknown course, helping the same people they worked to destroy last week. No one has ever been able to communicate with them, so nothing is known of their origins or purpose. It is said that those who catch the eye of the Shadow Police are either destine for greatness, or fated for tragedy.
To further complicate matters, people are starting to get their memories back. Slowly and sporadically who they were before coming to the city returns to them, and with it the hope to return to the lives they once lived. The government does not take such matters lightly, and anyone having such "confused dementia" should turn themselves in for reprogramming.
Some have even sought out the tower (which is now heavily guarded) in order to discover the fate of The Man there, hoping for answers.
That's the Reader's Digest version. It's much deeper than that.
The reason I give you the background is show why I feel a Game Master is needed. He or she would run the stories set in the city, while the players would run or control the Flashbacks.
QuoteThe reason I give you the background is show why I feel a Game Master is needed. He or she would run the stories set in the city, while the players would run or control the Flashbacks.
I love your setting (I'm a huge dystopic-control fan. Which shows, considering I wrote Perfect).
I agree with you that a GM is definitely necessary here, now that you've described more of your setting/premise.
And... for the record, I wasn't trying to push for GM-less play, as much as present you with cool new approaches you could think about.
When you say "run the stories" do you mean "control the adventures" or do you mean "represent opposition, detail settings, and respond to character actions"?
I'm *hoping* that the answer is more the latter.
QuoteOutside of the government, there is a group known as the Shadow Police. These are groups of four individuals, dressed in trenchcoats.
The city is run by a totalitarian government, who claims that they fullfill the will of The Man in the Tower.
Here they work menial jobs where if they work hard enough (not to mention sell-out other citizens, help to maintain order, and don't rock the boat) they can rise up through the ranks, moving to better neighborhoods, and have access to greater luxuries.
Wow. You should read Perfect (http://www.incitefulentertainment.com/perfect.php)!
These themes (although the details are different) are very, very much reflected in Perfect.
Oh, and Perfect offers a type of GMing role which might be interesting to learn more about - reflexive, not driving the story, but still playing the role of the Inspectors and other opposition (Inspectors = also strange, mysterious police figures in black trenchcoats, shrouded in mystery.)
Let me know if you're interested in reading it, but don't want to buy it - I'll hook you up with a PDF copy. Just because I love horribly morose, dystopian, seeds-of-revolution games. :D
I'd love to read Perfect. I'll send you my email address in a PM.
I really like your idea of different degrees of success in a memory roll. The characters can discover more and more skills assuming they have the memory points to cover it. However, I'm debating whether or not to have a cap, since it could lead to a bunch of Buckaroo Bonzais running about. Then again...
As far as the GM is concerned, most definately the second "represent opposition, detail settings, and respond to character actions"
As a GM, I never ever control adventures. That's why I like games with solid settings, or at least open systems. I like to detail the setting and events that are in line to occur that will wor will not depending on the characters actions, but setting evolves whether or not the characters become involved in those actions. I like to just cut the the characters loose and see what they do. But that's just me.
If you're considering random stats or "blank slate" characters that get filled in later, would a more collaborative character building process be possible? You could take a Universalis-like approach, and give each player a certain number of Flashback tokens at the beginning of the game (maybe 10?). As the game progresses, any time somebody else's character tries to do something difficult (eg, pull a gun out and hope like hell he knows how to shoot), a player can spend a token and say "Flashback!" You then frame a scene from that character's past, explaining why they have the skill they're now using in the present. Other players could spend tokens to play NPCs or make things happen in the flashback, and at the end, the character gets a skill rating equal to the number of tokens spent. You could incorporate the Mystery idea from joepub - maybe generating (or resolving) Mysteries is how you get more Flashback tokens. When the flashback ends, you return to the normal GM-run storyline in the game's present and resolve the skill test.
Quote from: John Hyland on October 03, 2006, 06:30:12 PM
You then frame a scene from that character's past, explaining why they have the skill they're now using in the present.
To clarify, I mean that that player frames the scene - the GM would more or less stay out of the flashback scene. That way, the "present time" story is developed and guided by the GM, but each character's back story is filled in collaboratively by the players.
Chris,
I really like the synopsis of your setting.
Especially how creating geographic isolation between the past and the present neatly
avoids having players' alterations of the past contradict your backstory for the city.
Are you familiar with the technique of 'relationship mapping'? I don't know of a specific forum post which explains the idea perfectly; but I think it would benefit your game.
Basically, an r-map is a page with the names significant story figures-- PCs, NPCs, important past events, objects-- written all over it. Then you draw lines between the names. And alongside each line you write the nature of the relationship between the names it connects. Ace hates Bev. Bev is Curly's boss. Curly is Ace's best friend. A,B, & C all work for DeathCorp., etc.
Like a terrain map in a dungeon crawl; a relationship map can be used to keep track of what parts of the story have been revealed; and which established-facts lead to other information.
For your game, I'm picturing 2 relationship maps. One, pre-drawn by you; which shows all the connections between parts of the City. The players don't necessarily get to see this map. And another map, drawn by the players, where they add each point from their pasts which they 'discover' during play. Sometimes they'll remember something and not know how it relates to anything-else in their past. Sometimes they'll discover what a relationship is, and be-able to add and label a connecting line.
So check this out: whenever there's a line that connects the Past map to the Present map; that's a big deal in the game.
The trick is to invent rules which specify who gets to draw those inter-map lines; and when.
Curly speaks pure awesomeness.
Two words: Memory Map.
Making that work would be killer.
Curly-
I'm digging the memory map. Alot. I've already started turning my brain around it.
Making that system work would definately make it something unique. Wow.
Curly gets a memory point. :)
Chris, we've thrown out a lot of cool ideas. Some you've latched onto (relationship/memory maps, blank slate character shees), some you've turned your nose at (GM-less play... some other stuff I'm sure.)
I think the best thing now is definitely to start searching for more info on these concepts, and really bury your nose in the books (forums).
Relationship maps can be read about:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=831&forum=4&12
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?t=9661
All the stuff we talk about: search it on The Forge.
Also, lots of cool stuff is discussed in these two blogs:
http://lumpley.com/
http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/
I'll also be sending you Perfect to read, shortly.
(I'm by no means suggesting that we close down communication... just pointing you in the direction of more information.)
I appreciate it.
I'm not turning my nose up at GM-less gaming, I just don't think it would work for my game. I'm actually very interested in trying out SHOCK. It looks like an AWESOME concept.
You guys have really helped out a lot. I have a decent idea for a system now (though the memory map will take some work, I reckon) and a solid background. I'm about ready to give it a go.
Thanks for all the help.
Of course, I'm totally up for more suggestions.communication.
Memory Map!
Ever thought about using one of those antiquated phrenological depictions of the mind? Develop a map of the character's mind and they progressively fill in the blanks. Can include emotions, abilities and traits. Also, the autonomic system could be part of it for catergorizing lightning relexes, intuition, high pain threshold, enhanced fortitude, etc.
Troy
http://www.iddl.vt.edu/rcd/accessibility/images/workshop/rule_a/phrenology.gif
Troy: Like one of these, used as a Memory Map? Maybe as part of the character sheet? All of the character sheet?
I can't begin to tell you what an awesome idea that is Troy!
Thanks from the link, Joe.
I think using that as a character sheet would be phenomenal!
Kudos!
Phrenominal.
I love games about memory, but there are definitely two camps, and I'm having trouble working out which one this game fits into. (Although I may well have missed something or got confused by other people posting.)
Does the GM have any preconceptions of what the characters memories are before we sit down and play? Are we as players discovering our characters memories, or are we making them up?
I'm sure you can see the two are very different. In, for example, Insylum the characters have no history. The players are encouraged to spend memory points to have memories, and as these are added the GM fleshes them out and character history is built retrospectively.
The other option is that the GM knows the history of the characters, and that they reveal little bits off the sheet as and when it's appropriate.
I think you're tending toward the former. But I think it's important to realise that if you want the players to be running flashback scenes and the like it's worth explicitly stating that the GM should try not to have any backstory planned out before the game starts.
I also think that it's worth working out how long you expect play to last. It seems to me that the most exciting bits of play are going to be after the first few flash back scenes, when players start pushing for flashbacks and then tie elements from other character's flashbacks together to create some sort of continuity. Now if the game is going to be a short one, designed to be played in a couple of hours, you don't need a lot of stuff going on in the present except to drive people into paying for flashbacks. If it's intended for campaign play then mechanically things will go slower, you may want only give people a few memory points per session to control how quickly they can build their past.
Best of luck, this is a really intriguing idea
The GM handles the city, the players handle the Flashbacks.
Ideally, the GM plays the city and it's background almost like a character. The GM knows nothing of the characters pasts at the start of play.
Once the game gets going, the players "purchase their skills" with memory points, and play out a flashback (run by the other players). They can spend additional Memory Points in order to override certain facts about their character that the other players may present, but must role-play such changes.
However, these folks on the board here have shown me some pretty slick ideas and theories, which I am now looking into while putting together a system.
I just want to say that this game sounds very cool. I'm glad it's getting some traction here.
Memory points and the memory maps are supreme awesomeness. Here's a random idea: maybe players get memory points by creating nodes and paths on their memory maps (by having flashback scenes)? So the more past stuff you create the more points you get to flesh out your abilities.
And maybe when you connect one of your memory nodes to someone else's node, you get to share memory points somehow.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your ideas here. I'm excited to see this game develop.
QuoteThe GM handles the city, the players handle the Flashbacks.
"handles the city".
Do you wanna define HOW this happens?
Maybe write up a script of play for a scene that happens in the city, and one that happens in flashback.
Something like, or example:
GM: The room is lit by a small candle in the far corner. The cold wind makes you shudder.
Tom: What's in the room?
GM: X, Y, and Z.
Jill: I want to remember if I've ever seen Z before. *spends memory point and rolls*
Something like that... but a detailed scene (for both the city and the flashback).
Fill the scenes with good players and cool stuff... and also give us a good idea who has narration rights at what times.
Okay, here goes...this is going to be very basic...
****
Tom, Dick, and Harry have just come out of an altercation with some street thugs in an alley way after leaving the factories in The Drones. Harry was beaten pretty badly and isn't doing so well.
GM: Harry has lost conciousness and bleeding profusly from the stab wounds.
Tom: I'm going to prop him against the wall and see if I can stop the bleeding.
Dick: I'm keeping a watch in the alleyway to make sure those thugs aren't coming back with reinforcements.
GM: Okay. Tom props Harry against the wall, examining the damage. He's been beaten up pretty badly, but worse yet is the blood that is seeping through the slits in his workshirt. Dick, give me a roll.
(dick rolls some dice. success)
GM: Dick, in the background you can hear someone...no a group of someones approaching. However, from the echoing sounds of the hollowed heels against the pavement, it sounds more like a Police Patrol than common thugs.
Dick: Shit. The cops are coming.
Tom: What are we going to do? We can take him to the hospital. Too many questions.
Dick: Well, he's going to bleed to death here. This is bad.
Tom: Dick, go distract them somehow. Let me think.
Dick: Alright. But think fast. I'm going to approach the Police.
GM: Alright. Tom, what are you doing?
Tom: Looking at the blood and the wounds, I think I might remember something about this. I'm not sure this is the first time I've ever been in this situation. I might know something about dressing these wounds.
GM: You want to attempt to remember.
Tom: Absolutely.
GM: Okay. Roll against your current memory points.
Tom rolls. A good success.
GM: Tom, this isn't the first time you've seen this. In fact, you're starting to remember...Alright, we're going to Flashback. Harry, you're in on this too.
Harry: Finally.
(Not sure how it will be determined what order it goes in, but right now we'll just go Dick and Harry)
GM: Alright, set the scene.
(Again, this is a temporary mechanic, but each player other than the flashback player has 5 Flashback points to spend on setting the scene.)
Dick: Alright. Spending one point to set the location. Tom, enclosed in the back of an ambulance. A youth lays on a stretcher , hooked up to oxyegeon. He is is drifting in and out of conciousness.
Harry: I'm going to spend 2 points to add a new character. (If this was a character from a previous Flashback it would only be 1 point). Across from you a large man, in a paramedic's uniform is yelling. You remember his name is Bernie.
Harry (as Bernie): Damn it, Tom! We're losing him.
Tom: I lean forward, working my magic. Not sure what exactly a paramedic actually do in this situation, but it seems Tom would, so I'm going to work to stabalize him.
Dick: Spending my remain four points to add a situation. Tom, as you lean forward, your head swims a bit. Apparently you'd been drinking. Your hands fumble.
Harry (As Bernie): C'mon Tom, for cris'sake! This is the third time this week!
Tom: I'm not digging this. I'm going to spend Four Memory points to override Dicks situation.
GM: Alright, but you have to role-play it.
Tom: Four's a lot of memory points. Tell you what, I'll spend 2 and partially override it.
Tom: Christ, Bernie. You take things to far. Get over here and help me, instead of sitting there with your bullshit. That's what happens when your so goddamn understaffed you start pulling folks out of a New Years Eve party.
Harry (As Bernie): Bernie looks down at the youth as he helps Tom. "Hell of a way to kick off the NEw Year, eh Kid?
GM: Okay Tom. Do or die time. How many Memory Points you want to spend on the Paramedic skill? With the success of your original roll, you can buy up to a Good rating?
Tom: I'm going to do that. I'll buy it as Good.
GM: Alright, Good it is.
Tom: Cool. I'm going to stabilize this kid.
Dick: You're going to face a penalty, due to your drunkeness.
Tom: I agree.
Harry: But with Bernie there, I imagine there'd be a bonus for having help.
Tom: Good enough for me.
Tom rolls. Terrible.
Harry (as Bernie): Tom, what the hell are you doing?! We're losing him!
Tom: I'm doing the best I can. Hang in there kid!
Harry (as Bernie): It's too late, Tom. We've lost him.
Tom: Sonofabitch! Tom slams his fists into the walls of the ambulance.
Harry (as Bernie): Tom, calm down. It happens.
Tom: How is it that you can say that? Nothing bothers you, does it Bernie? Nothing ever bothers you. You just...Wait...I think I saw his eye twitch.
Harry (as Bernie): Just a reaction.
Tom: No. No, I definately saw it twitch.
Tom: Spending a memory point to alter this outcome and roll again.
Tom: There's still a chance! I work feverishly to save this kid.
Harry: Due to your sudden inspiration, I'll spend my last Flashback Point to give you a bonus.
Dick: Sorry, buddy, but I'm thinking the drunkeness is still in effect. There's going to be a penalty. But with Bernie helping you and the Flashback point Harry spent, I'm thinking that'll bring it back to a base roll.
Tom rolls, this time success.
Tom: THe kid's breathing! He's going to make it!
GM: If everyone's satisfied, I think this would be a good time to cut back.
Agreed.
GM: Okay, Tom as you look at Harry bleeding in the alleyway, you realize that there is something you can do.
Tom: I'm going try to stop the bleeding.
GM: You don't have any equipment, so there'll be a penalty.
Tom: Fair enough.
GM: Now Dick, you're approaching the Police Patrol.
(the game continues)
******
Anyway, the gist of how I see it going. Obviously this is real basic, with no hardcore mechanics, but it gives you all an idea of where I'm going with this.
I am contemplating the phrase "Powerful Memories."
So if Tom buys a Paramedic skill of 1, then his flashback will emotionally insignificant,
and he won't remember much about some bland training classroom. Thus, he won't
be able to help Harry very much in the present.
If Tom spends 3 memory points on 'Paramedic', then he'll remember having been
a Boy Scout-- and this flashback to his childhood will really get under Tom's skin.
"I...had a younger brother. My god, I wonder where he is now? I don't even know his name!"
But at least Tom's memory of boy scout first aid will be fairly vivid and thus useful.
For 5 memory points, Tom remembers being in an ambulence, trying to save a bleeding woman,
making a medical error, and accidentally killing her! This will haunt him in the present.
SO... (ta-dah!)...
The number of memory points spent on a memory 'node'-- equals the number of relationship-lines
eminating from that node on the flashback map. When playing-out the Flashback; that-which-is-at-the-
end-of-those-lines must be discovered, before the flashback can end. And something-- like a random roll--
dictates how many of those lines are Bad Memories: ugly stuff like the woman dying. Stuff the character
has to confront in the present.
Yeah. That's interesting. Let me just make sure I'm reading this the right way. So the more points spent, the more powerful the memory. The more powerful the memory the more potent the skill. But even more importantly, the more powerful the memory the more backstory and depth. I like that a lot!
Yeah, you've got it.
I'm not sure about my final paragraph in the last post, tho.
I like having the number of lines from extending from a given memory node correspond to how significant that memory is.
But the result of that-- will be that a Size 5 memory is significant in the backstory map.
Which may not be the same thing as being significant in the ongoing game.
A better way to do it, might be to give the character some type of -5 flaw in the present.
"The good news is you're a +5 paramedic. The bad news is you're now -5 in any situation involving women;
until your character does something to shake-off his lingering feelings of guilt."
QuoteFor 5 memory points, Tom remembers being in an ambulence, trying to save a bleeding woman,
making a medical error, and accidentally killing her! This will haunt him in the present.
Idea: The more memory points, maybe the more guilt you have associated with the memory.
So I can totally remember being the world's greatest driver, but if I do then I also remember crashing and killing my wife...
QuoteA better way to do it, might be to give the character some type of -5 flaw in the present.
"The good news is you're a +5 paramedic. The bad news is you're now -5 in any situation involving women;
until your character does something to shake-off his lingering feelings of guilt."
Beautiful. I didn't even see that post at first.
QuoteGM: Tom, this isn't the first time you've seen this. In fact, you're starting to remember...Alright, we're going to Flashback.
I don't like that the GM controls when a flashback occurs.
This whole, "Alright, we're going ot Flashback." feels awkward.
I think players should spend memory points to determine when they get to flashback.
Also: I think a skill can be remembered without the scene being remembered... Like, I can remember how to shoot without remembering the context IMMEDIATELY... but at some point the flashback comes.
Maybe the longer I put the flashback off, the more guilt is associated with it (as suggested up above, sorta).
But yeah: I don't like how the GM controlled the flashback setting.
QuoteHarry: I'm going to spend 2 points to add a new character. (If this was a character from a previous Flashback it would only be 1 point).
This promotes building on the same characters... building a single story arc in the past.
I don't, personally, like that idea.
I don't want to keep flashing back to Bob and Carver, simply because it's cheaper.
I want to flash back to Bob and Carver, then Nicholai and Constance, then Ringo, then that man in the diner, then...
Make it so that the more flashbacks you have... the MORE confused you get ultimately...
But then if you WANT a grand finale where the flashbacks all come together, you then learn that Bob and Carver were working for Ringo, and the man in the diner was pimping Constance, and Nicholai was your brother.
To me, that'd be more exciting than:
-a flashback with bob and a gun
-a flashback with carver and a rock climbing session
-a flashback with bob and carver and I at the hospital
-a flashback with carver and...
QuoteHarry (As Bernie): Bernie looks down at the youth as he helps Tom. "Hell of a way to kick off the NEw Year, eh Kid?
This feels very hardboiled-noir, which I absolutely love.
In fact... I want to suggest that the flashbacks all be in a black-and-white, smokey, noir feel.
Ex.
Tom: It was a morning like any other. Birds chirping too loud. All the colours in the sky far too bright. Ambulance discovering the victims of last night's mob raid. The only difference was that this time, my wife was one of those victims.
Dick: I spend 2 points to become a doctor in this scene.
Dick: Listen, tommy boy. This is as hard for me to say as it is for you to hear. I just want you to know -
Tom: Spit it out.
Dick: Your wife didn't make it. We did everything we could.
Tom: I knew this hadn't been no random gang attack. This was a well-planned, well-articulated mob hit. They were trying to get to me through my loved ones, but it wasn't going to work. The debt wasn't mine to pay, and I wasn't gunna pay it.
If you had all this gritty, totalitarian, SLIGHTLY cyberpunky feel... and then juxtaposed it with noir pulp flashbacks...
It'd be hella, hella cool.
In my personal opinion.
Just sayin'.
QuoteAnyway, the gist of how I see it going. Obviously this is real basic, with no hardcore mechanics, but it gives you all an idea of where I'm going with this.
Good work man!
Have you read The Shadow of Yesterday?
There is something in it called Keys.
Basically, if I pursue one of the Keys I've selected for my character, I get XP.
I don't get XP for killing monsters unless I've selected a Key that lets me get XP for that.
In this game, maybe flashbacks could either give me skills or create Keys.
Keys like "What is the significance of Room Twenty?" or "Why did Raffi Gustano want me dead?"
The more I pursue these mysteries that my flashbacks have uncovered, the more memory points I gain.
Joe & I both came up with examples using 'Guilt' as the present-day effect of a memory.
But 'Guilt' seems too constrained as a concept.
I think 'Despair' might work better.
So Tom could remember how to stop Harry's bleeding by remembering being present at his own son's birth.
And even that happy, guiltless memory could incapacitate Tom-- due to the Despair of not knowing where his son is.
Tom needn't solve the mystery of the son, to shake-off the Despair. Doing something thematically-related; like
helping another parent or a child-- could remove the negative effect.
Whatever the heck the negative effect would actually be. Any ideas?
I don't like that the GM controls when a flashback occurs.
This whole, "Alright, we're going ot Flashback." feels awkward.
I doubt this is how it would go down in a true game. I was just pointing out the transition. Actually (and maybe this wasn't clear), Tom initiated the Flashback while trying to remember. I imagine, the first few times a group plays (especially if it is a novice group) the GM may need to announce the transition (though perhaps a bit more subtly that "Alright, we're going into flashback"), but with time the transactions will be become more and more seamless.
I do like the idea of the Flashbacks not having to be immediate. The reason I had it set the way it was is the player can gauge how much of the relevant skill he wants to "purchase" during the flashback. This could also swerve the outcome of the Flashback as well. In the above example Tom purchased Paramedic up to Good. He still lost the youth on his initial roll, but he used memory points to modify the flashback and re-roll. This time he was successful. If he had only purchased it at poor, the results may have been different, both in the Flashback and In the City.
That being said, I did not incorporate any of the new ideas you good folks gave me either. I really like the idea of "powerful memories" and modifiers based on the outcome of the Flashback. The whole guilt/despair thing is very intriguing.
I'm also really digging the "keys" idea Joe said. I don't think that flashbacks should be for just buying skills. I would want them to shape your character, not just fill out a character sheet.
I appreciate the ideas and support. I am amazed at how welcoming and supportive everyone at The Forge is thus far.
Let me mull over a few of these ideas for a little while, and I'll post another example incorporating them as well. This was just a basic "skeleton" example to show how the two "Settings" intermingle.
QuoteI'm also really digging the "keys" idea Joe said. I don't think that flashbacks should be for just buying skills. I would want them to shape your character, not just fill out a character sheet.
Clinton R. Nixon, the author, puts all his games up on his website in .txt format.
You can then buy the pretty book with illustrations and nice formatting if you want to, but all the rules are available for your perusal.
(Indie designers are so awesome in that regard, hey? Give you a real taste at what you're buying, before you shill out the dough.)
Just a word of encouragement:
As a fan of Dark City, I would so totally play this game.
Actually, yeah, Dark City was a big influence on this game. However, the more I developed the background, the more it came into its own.
And now that armed with some fantasic ideas from some of the good folks here at The Forge, it's going to be even better.
Thanks for the encouragement!
Chris