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Huh, I just noticed that I'd missed this question by Klaus completely when he posted it last fall. Better answer it late than never, I guess.

The answer is simply that yes, you have to include everybody present in the soft place. This means that most shamans will be unable to impose this shift in realities on anything more than a handful of people. You don't have to pay for crows or other animals, however

Of course one could create a Secret that'd get over this observation effect (that's what it is - observing persons are harmful to soft places) somehow, or perhaps figure out a way to gain massive amounts of Pool from somewhere to pay for pushing the whole village into the dreamworld. One could travel north to learn the ways of ritual magic from the Gorenites, for instance. Even better, a suitable totem willing to loan you a couple dozen/score/hundred Pool points from its immense Pool would do the trick as well...

I wonder in hindsight why I've written that Secret in a way that implies that you'd need this specific Secret to fall to sleep at the drop of the hat. Seems to me like that part should be doable without such a large investment in dream shamanism - a simple Ability check might suffice. Probably has something to do with the "can't be awakened before he wills it" thing, which is potentially pretty useful for dream shamanism. Strange.

Wow! Thanks for your answers. That post was very clear and full of useful explainations. :-)

Only one thing about the "Effect from others" issue:
so, as a rule of thumb, we could say that you can make an Effect from a check made by another character, paying Pool for it as always, if:

1) the player of that character (or the SG if it's an NPC) thinks it's ok, and
2) of course, if it makes sense in the fiction.

Does it makes sense?

Quote from: Paolo D. on May 28, 2010, 11:07:13 AM
After playing at SS (in the Star Wars setting) and TWoN, I've got some questions about the rules:

This works well for us, considering how I like answering those.

Quote
1) Introduction cost of equipment with imbuements

You  only pay when the equipment comes into play mechanically. So you can definitely strut the stuff in the narrative to your heart's content, but when and if the equipment is used the first time for its ratings or imbuements, that's when you pay the introduction cost. Note that you only pay the cost when using the equipment for its ratings or imbuements. There are a few marginal ways of using equipment that do not involve either of those, and in those cases you don't need to pay. For instance, if you're selling the equipment or using it merely to justify some leverage (such as being able to use a swordfighting skill in a fight), those do not require payment. It's only when the equipment's special mechanical flavour is invoked that you pay for it.

Quote
2) Rolling for an Effect for someone else
In the SS handbook, there's an example with a hero making a motivational speech for a crowd (or something similar), to explain that you can make an Effect even from a check made by another character (but paying it yourself, of course). In this example, the hero is motivated to give a benefit to the crowd, so I (being part the crowd) can pay 1 Pool to make an Effect from his check.
But can I make an Effect from a check made by another character, even if that character wasn't motivated to give a benefit to me?

Actual play example: yesterday night we was playing TWoN and an Ammeni npc raped one of our character. They went into conflict, and the character lost. So the player, suggested by the SG, made an Effect from the check of the Ammeni, writing "An Ammeni raped me 2/I" on his character sheet.... Even if the Ammeni wasn't motivated to give a benefit for the character.

An interesting question. My first instinct would be that the character generating the Ability check gets a veto (or rather, his player gets it) on who gains the mechanical benefit from the check. My logic here is that Ability checks are a measure of dramatic force a character generates in defense of whatever it is that he stands for, insofar as narrative analysis is concerned, and therefore suborning those forces and even turning them against the character himself seems like a potentially deprotagonizing rule. In other words, you shouldn't be punished for rolling well. I would be unlikely to allow this as the rapist's player; to the contrary, I would probably make an Effect off the event myself just to wield it against my victim in the future.

On the other hand, the situation you describe makes some sense in that the character is turning an event in her life into a strength, and it's actually incidental that there was another character involved in the misfortune... you know, I would probably handle this particular situation by having the player declare that his character is trying to get over the event, at which point a check of Resist (R) could be made (against the value of the rape if the rapist preserved it as an Effect himself, or against no resistance otherwise). That check result could then be written down as an Effect such as "An Ammeni raped me and I'm angry/mortified/traumatized/whatever about it". This way the value of the Effect would derive from something the character herself does about the event instead of the the antagonist's actions.

Then again, technically I would call no actual fault in rules application in how you handled the case - the SG runs the NPCs, so if he thinks that it's fine for the character to make an Effect from this, that's his prerogative as the advocate of the rapist. Perhaps the NPC didn't simply care one way or the other, and thus allowed his actions to turn into a hidden strength for the victim? This sort of thing would only have an ability to turn into a real problem if the group considered it a rule that you could always and without fail make an Effect from anything other people do and then pump that Effect into bonus dice for yourself in acting against those people. As a general principle this would introduce a really weird dice loop into the system, one in which it might at times be questionable whether it is preferable to roll good results. The system presumes that the character is never punished for good rolls, so that's tricky.

So, in a nutshell I'd say that your application was fine if it's understood that it's a case-by-case call of the player who plays the rolling character, and his choice does not necessarily have to have a firm relationship to what the character thinks about it. When and if this sort of thing starts to bother the player in his role as a character advocate, do allow him to limit the Effect-generation.

Of course, I would see no problem in having a Secret that allows you to leech Effects from the rolls others make. Something like this, perhaps:

Secret of Observing Prey
When the character observes an Ability check made by another, he can make an Effect out of the check result regardless of other considerations, such as whether the check wins or loses a fight or such. The Effect has to explicitly refer to the target of the observation, and you can only have one observation per target at a time. When in conflict against an observed target, the player can swap any Panther-Style (I) check result with the value of the observation Effect by describing how the insight helps him in the struggle. Cost: 2 Instinct to observe, nothing to swap.

Could probably make a more generic "you get to always make Effects out of anything you want" Secret, too, if such were required.

Quote
3) Refreshment scene
This last one is more a urban legend than a real question, however I'll ask for the sake of clarity... ;-)

If I end up a scene without rolling any dice, does this scene count as a refreshment?

Whether dice are rolled or not is not the crux of whether a scene is appropriate as refreshment. The key requirement of a refreshment scene is that it's an appropriate social activity engaged in for its own sake. Clear signs of the refreshing nature of a scene are if it's an empty beat in the plot, it's sympathetic, if the SG gets to introduce new fictional elements without immediate antagonism, and if the character lets his hair down and does things he might later regret. There might be Ability checks involved in a refreshment scene just to give it a bit of fun color; for example, in He-Man the characters are always having playful duels or playing Chess as refreshment scenes, and we usually get to find out who wins the duel - that might be resolved by a simple conflict without making the scene non-refreshing. On the other hand, even if He-Man makes no Ability checks in those frequent travel scenes through the jungles of Eternia, that does not make those scenes refreshment; he's clearly going somewhere instead of just hiking for fun.

(No idea where He-Man came from here; just run with it.)

Although I haven't witnessed it, I suppose that it would be possible to play a scene and decide that it was a refreshment post-facto. It's much more usual for a player to require a refreshment scene (obliging the SG to throw out an opportunity) or declare such (by pursuing a refreshing course of action), though.

Quote from: Ron Edwards on May 27, 2010, 03:47:37 PMThese aren't bad, although I think that the first should be renamed (there's already a Crystal Court) and the second's qualifying phrase might be better re-written, perhaps, "where everyone is alone."

I didn't remember the Crystal Court; you're right, so...

The Silver Mask, where nothing is as it looks like ∫ The Stone Forest, where everyone is alone.

QuoteThe Memory Dome, in which Halls all is retained, and all is forgot - a bit too abstractly philosophical, I think. I can see how it could be made strong, but also how it could easily slip into nothingness

Any idea about how put that strong in the wording? If not, I'll discard it until something better comes in mind to me.

QuoteThe Green Planet, whose King was overthrown ∫ The Green Lands, where the Sun shine over an impending threat (next location!) - first, the Green and Green present the same redundancy as the Court phrases, and second, I don't think that any location should have any link to another location - it becomes a preliminary encounter rather than an adventure of its own

I explain this better: "next location" was (badly) referred to my game with Meme; in our game the Monster was Lover's father, and the Lover said that, since her father was still alive, she wasn't free. So, I thought that for me it'd cool my character getting back home (Green Lands) with a menace that could be that Monster. If it'll be... it depends on what Meme'll decide, and I'm looking forward to knowing this!

For the "Green" you're right; so, the Red Planet.


"The Celestial Court, where poison brews behind every smile." - absolutely cool; I definitely take your suggestion, it's way cooler than the three separate settings.

The Lost City, broken by Civil War - "The Central City, broken by Civil War" would make more sense?

I am a Demon Prince, a Kingdom under my rule, but I crave human warmth - I am a Royal Demon, but I crave human warmth.

I am the daughter of the Moon, blessed by her gifts, but I'll never be able to see her again - I am the child of the Moon, blessed by her gifts, but I'll never be able to see her again (cool you like this, I really love it).

I am the Herald of the Sun, strong with his brightness, but my hands burns the life - I'll go with your suggestion, "I am the Herald of the Sun, strong with his brightness, but I love my family more than him".

Cool, makes sense. I keep forgetting how different my preferred CA is from a lot of people here. So, instead of criticizing I'm now just curious. How do you imagine a GM deciding difficulty levels?:

QuoteNo one said you were dumb or said your game design didn't make sense

I Don't disagree but, I don't agree with you either.
statements like the ones below, I think are intended to be "down the nose"  - even if they weren't I definitely felt that they were wholly unnecessary.

QuoteSorry, it's just a pet hate of mine to see a game that looks like a cobbled together bunch of random components.

QuoteIf you're just doing it because that's what other game systems do...read a few more game systems.

you don't think this is condescending? I clearly stated "new (to me)" in the title of this thread. That is of course ignoring that this statement is a contradiction.

QuoteIs it just to get a bunch of numbers that look like D&D numbers?

I don't mean to seem unappreciative. I don't mean to seem like as ass.
Just trying to get some help getting my numbers to the right place.
and for the record Vulpinoid I am not angry with you.
I have noticed a pattern in all my reading here at the forge. I was reluctant to ask for help
because of that pattern. A lot of people substituting your problem with one they feel they have already solved (always for their game/project).

QuoteI still believe in the 9 cardinal attributes

- physical strength
- physical endurance
- physical agility

- social

- mental

- and these 9 can be taken down to less usually.  I think generally in the short term games and designers have found ways to reduce skills and attributes to minimums which can lead to better playability and balance.  Specializations can be a way to add some more flavor if need be.  Such as : +4 swimming when rolling athletics checks.

For this reason and others, things take a long time and a good amount of effort. I realize its a process. I apologize for "snapping"
I still mean everything I said. Proof read or not. (not a matter of typing out of some emotional haste .. it was 3am and I was trying to finish so I could sleep - hence no proof reading I can't seem to sign on during the daytime - server overload I think.)


I will try my best at a mission statement here.
My attempt at explain my goals.
_{Note: I have not read any books on game design or theory.
This however should not be treated as a handicap.
I finished my entire basement (1000 Sq feet)
without any training or real experience (except helping my dad build a deck when I was around 10)
Electrical, drywalling, molding, flooring, plumbing, etc etc. all soundproofed all to code.
I don't say this to brag. I say this because People are arrogant. If they had to be trained to do something. So do you.
I will now design my RPG. I don't know what I am doing here either. I will succeed though. Eventually.
I would love the help of more experienced guys.}
Mission statement.
_{PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS MY GOAL FOR SKILLS ONLY}
I am basing as much of my character design (and advancement) on 11 core elements that make up a person.
they are (very boiled down)
_{Might - physical strength
Prowess - instincts
Precision - Control of body
Agility - balance - flexibility - speed
Forbearance - fortitude (the word not the D&D save)
Heartiness - health
Perception - readiness - awareness
Knowledge - accumulation of things learned
Reasoning - problem solving, common sense
Communication - how well you commune with others - empathy
Appeal - how ideal your actions/dress/appearance/hygiene are.}

These are the driving force behind as many aspects of my game design as I can make them.
My goal is for these 11 characteristics to drive the character portion of the game.
^{(meaning things that deal with the character - excluding things that are wholly non-character related - therefore I cannot say simply - "drive the whole game")}
My goal with SKILLS is to have an easy way to determine chance of success while a character is attempting to perform a skill.
^{note: when I say easy I refer to gameplay - not character design necessarily - this is an important difference. A point buy system (I'll use Green Ronin's Song of Ice and Fire RPG for example.) Can be slow and arduous but the end result during gameplay is much easier and faster
I don't mind if it take's time and understanding for the Players to setup their skills.}
Skills in my Game design could also be considered Secondary skills. Lesser skills. This aspect of my game design is mainly a success/failure system
and is otherwise a roleplaying (narrative) portion of the game.
Example of potential gameplay: (rules come into effect in the green parts )
Eldrin: (to GM) I am going to try to make that cloak that Sarah was looking to find
Sarah:  Sweet! the one with all the hidden pockets?
Eldrin:  No, The other. I am only starting to sew. I need to start with something simple. But I can maybe add pockets in a few levels if I decide to up my tailoring skill.
Sarah: Thank you, Are you looking for payment? How much are materials?
Eldrin: Don't worry about it. I am still using up that roll of rich silk that we found in that abandoned cart along the road here. No charge I need the practice
GM: roll your tailoring skill - adding/substrating modifiers (perhaps checking against a Difficulty Class) 
A SINGLE ROLL IS MADE
SUCCESS OR FAILURE IS IMMEDIATELY (excluding possible chart checking time) KNOWN
for example sake I'll say he Fails
Sarah: Aw, Well thanks for trying. I didn't want to say anything but I didn't really want a Cream colored cloak
Eldrin: I was going to see if Periss would Dye it for you. I know you wanted it Green. You woodsy types always do.
END EXAMPLE

^{Note: the mechanics portion of this example was used only to show how much/little the rules come into play during actual gameplay when performing skills. CONSULTING CHARACTER SHEET - STATING INTENT - PERFORM A SINGLE DIE/DICE ROLL - POSSIBLY STATE DEGREE OF SUCCESS/FAILURE}

I will admit that this method differs from other aspects of my game design. For one its faster. I want it to be faster. I don't need to speed up any other parts of my game. I notice there is a desire in games I have read about or played to use a single mechanic across the board (so to speak)
meaning combat and social encouters skills - magic all work on the same mechanic. While that is all well and good. It is not my intent to attempt this.
I want Skills to feel different from Combat or magic or social encounters.
In my system  - I would like the common denominator to be the core 11 characteristics. they will play a vital roll in Both Combat and Social Encounters as well as Skills.

I hope that provides a big enough picture of my goals. My hopes are low that it is a big enough picture.

Now, to outline (or re-outline) My idea for simplifying the big 11 - parring them down to 4. I will (this time) provide reasons for doing this.
_{note: the birth of this idea came when reading through the 4th ed. Chasium Basic RP rulebook. This sytem divides the skills into categories (see char. sheet) but other than an optional bonus I saw no other reason for doing this other than for organizational purposes. It gave me the idea of using the categories as governing aspects of the skills}

Reasons:

• Many skills don't require a skill characteristic (ex: might) but a combo of them (ex: might and agility and a bit of precision)
• I wanted this portion of the game to feel different from the rest of the game.
• Organizational reasons - ease of finding the numbers you need on the character sheet.
• I wanted to simplify the skills section - by this I mean Make it quicker in gamplay - not in character design

heres what I have so far.
BODY        - Uses combo of MIGHT, AGILITY, & HEARTINESS
MIND         - Uses combo of  KNOWLEDGE, REASONING, PERCEPTION
INSTINCTS - Uses combo of PROWESS, PERCEPTION, REASONING
TRADE.      - Uses combo of KNOWLEDGE, FORBEARANCE, COMMUNICATION

so you have 4 skill categories.
examples might be

body - swimming  (rather than Swimming as sheer an agility based skill)
mind - reading/ writing (rather than a knownledge based skill)
instincts - blindfighting ( reather than a prowess based skill)
Trade - blacksmithing (rather than a based skill - this is another reason for breaking it down to 4)

Now Heres where I would like Help/suggestions. _{(not a critique - which I never asked for Ron "asking for praise and confirmation when they claim that they're asking for critique"}
I am having considerable trouble getting the numbers where I want them. (I will state Where I want them this time in a moment)

I had thought that I could Use skill ranks and multiply them with a Skill category score.
Ex: Body(smimming rank) = % chance of success (on a d100)
That would be my ideal formula but I can't make myself Happy with the numbers.
How many ranks do I need versus what do my Skill category scores (body, mind, etc) need to be to get the NUMBERS THAT I WANT.
The numbers that I want: Ideally I want the skill ranks to reflect how practiced the player is with the skill
So the lowest rank would be untrained (rank 1) All players can attempt to make a roll with a low chance of success  >15%
The highest rank (as yet undetermined) would represent the highest chance of success possible – which I want to be 95% - (even a master can mess up.)
The ranks spread out between these extremes would move up evenly.
If there were ten ranks on a perfectly average Skill category score.
The percentages might go something like
Skill rank 1-------- 10%
Skill rank 2-------- 20%
Skill rank 3-------- 30%
Skill rank 4-------- 40%
Skill rank 5-------- 50%
Skill rank 6-------- 60%
Skill rank 7-------- 70%
Skill rank 8-------- 80%
Skill rank 9-------- 90%
Skill rank 10-------- 95%

Since I'm basing as much of my game on the 11 characteristics (or in this case there combined version)
_{note: More on how to combine them in a moment}
The Skill category score will effect this number.
Why? Maybe a player is naturally better than others.  Natural talent + Practice = better than Lack of natural talent + Practice
So now my next step is determining how to derive a number that supports this theory using combination of the Big 11 (might, prowess, etc)
_{My first thought was ---- average them.}
Might + Agility+Heartiness/3 = Body
_{My second thought was}
Have a modifier linked from the characteristic scores (a little harder to explain)
Score
_{scores range from 3-17 can generally average around 10 when rolled – your average joe would score a 7 without being below or above average}
If your score is     ----   then your modifier is
7                                                1
8                                                 2
9                                                 3     
10                                               4
Then you add them together.
Ex: might is 7 (mod +1) – Agility is 10 (mod+4) – Heartiness is 8(mod +2)
Body score is 7   (1+4+2)
Further example: Body score is 7 (see above) times tightrope walking rank 7
Giving the player a 49% chance of successfully walking a tightrope.

These are my ideas. I am not stuck on them.  I like them though.
I would like help making this work in such a way that I don't end up with
Percentages often times well over 100%
Or situations where players have less than 50% chance more often than not.

I have not been able to find a way to keep a Difficulty class without being diceless using this idea.
I want a dice roll and would rather sacrifice a DC. Especially since the GM can do the equivalent by using situation bonuses and penalties (ex:+10% because of fair weather or -20% because of an undertow while swimming, Etc)

I hope this clears up my needs.
I really do. It took a long time to type it all up.
Thanks. Look forward to your suggestions.

Peter's right. I'm working on it.

-Vincent

It's something wrong with the server, it's not just you.

Hello,

I've been trying to post regularly over the past week or so on the forge, and my internet connection is superb. I can access just about any website I need to quickly and painlessly, except for this one. Half the time that I try it times out and gives me one of a couple server errors, either saying the website couldn't be reached, or there's a capacity problem. This occurs even at 3 in the morning. Is this a constant problem, or should i finagle my internet settings?

Thanks,
--norm

After playing at SS (in the Star Wars setting) and TWoN, I've got some questions about the rules:

1) Introduction cost of equipment with imbuements
I must pay the introduction cost for such an equipment only when I use it (for the first time in a scene) for its mechanical effects (ratings & imbuements) or even when it's only fictionally relevant (something like "I intimidate you with my sword". I'm using the sword in the fiction, but without applying any rating or imbuement - yet, of course -).

2) Rolling for an Effect for someone else
In the SS handbook, there's an example with a hero making a motivational speech for a crowd (or something similar), to explain that you can make an Effect even from a check made by another character (but paying it yourself, of course). In this example, the hero is motivated to give a benefit to the crowd, so I (being part the crowd) can pay 1 Pool to make an Effect from his check.
But can I make an Effect from a check made by another character, even if that character wasn't motivated to give a benefit to me?

Actual play example: yesterday night we was playing TWoN and an Ammeni npc raped one of our character. They went into conflict, and the character lost. So the player, suggested by the SG, made an Effect from the check of the Ammeni, writing "An Ammeni raped me 2/I" on his character sheet.... Even if the Ammeni wasn't motivated to give a benefit for the character.

3) Refreshment scene
This last one is more a urban legend than a real question, however I'll ask for the sake of clarity... ;-)

If I end up a scene without rolling any dice, does this scene count as a refreshment?

We are enjoying very much these games, so thanks a lot! :-)