Miniatures, TFoB, and Line of Sight

[Dain]

Hey Ian,

Wasn't really making a suggestion so much as making a "I think you are saying this" statement to see if someone would tell me "yes that's right" or "no, that's not what I'm saying". Also, when I was talking about counting hexes I was talking about movement, not ranges...ie if I have a move of 7, counting aloud "1,2,3,4,5,6, and 7" as I literally grabbed a figure and bounced him from each hex to the next adjacent hex on the way to the desired destination. Obviously you need to not end up more than 7 hexes total from where you started in that case, but I THINK they are saying that there's so much weaving movement humans do in 2 seconds of combat that the exact path taken to get to your destination isn't really that traceable on a hex mat, and that since this system models real time a little better than some others, and combatants TRUELY ARE moving simultaneously, the whole movement process isn't really conducive to typical mat mechanics. You'd really need something considerably more ugly (like star fleet impulses....Yic) to trace it on a mat...and that would be painful. ANYHOW, hope that clarifies what I was trying to say a little. Again, I'm not making any suggestions anywhere in this forum yet...I'm WAY too new to the system to have valid input yet.

Sorry I worded that mess originally so clutzie...think I kindof threw people off a little.

forgive the ps. edit add in here...but I've seen several items mentioning IMO. Just to show you what an IMMENSE newbie I am...what is IMO?

[Lance D. Allen]

IMO = In my opinion
IMHO = In my humble opinion
YMMV = Your mileage may vary
AFAIK = As far as I know
AFACR = As far as I can recall

It took me about a year to figure those out, because I felt too silly asking.

Anyhow.. I wouldn't really be down with your abstract usage of the minis either, Dain. I wasn't going to tell you that you were wrong though (not seriously anyhow) because it would work just as well that way, if that's what you wanted to do. My points about using the existing rules to work minis is assuming using them the way minis are currently used, in a rather crunchy, specific manner.

I may actually make a few scenarios and run them through to see if I can live up to my own challenge, seeing as how no one else saw fit to take up the gauntlet. If I do, I'll post my results for everyone who's interested.

BTW, November Kilo, the reason why I am advocating a small section on minis is because I don't think the necessary work would be enough to bother with a mini-supp. I really do think that the rules as they stand are sufficient.

[Dan Sellars]

In our games we just draw a rough sketch on a bit of paper to give every one an overview of the situation so we are thinking of a consistant picture.  We just mark walls, buildings etc and blobs or crosses for characters.   It just sets the scene.

I like the idea of "Skirmish rules" for minatures but to me that would almost be a seperate game and not really be used in a roleplaying session.  

If you do decide to come up with any minature rules I would be intersted in looking at them.

Regards,
Dan.

[Ian.Plumb]

Hi,

Wasn't really making a suggestion... (SNIP)

No problem -- I was simply using the statement as an example of what I hope won't eventuate and why. I'm not having a go at you.

Also, when I was talking about counting hexes I was talking about movement, not ranges...ie if I have a move of 7, counting aloud "1,2,3,4,5,6, and 7" as I literally grabbed a figure and bounced him from each hex to the next adjacent hex on the way to the desired destination.

I've never seen miniatures used for movement in an "I go, You go" sequence like that. All movement is simultaneous. There is no opportunity to run around someone and stab an opponent in the back simply because it is your turn and you have a large movement score.

The use of miniatures doesn't imply that the combatants are stationary during combat but it does limit their facing in a manner that everyone agrees upon (rather than requiring continual referee fiat, which I personally would find extremely annoying). There is no need to ask the referee whether the character can see something -- it is obvious to all.

It also limits how much movement takes place and to where -- for instance, you can't disengage if you've been manoeuvred into a corner, you can't dodge if there is nowhere to dodge to, and bashes result in forced movement in a specific direction (which may have other consequences, such as impacting a wall or falling off the battlement). As I see it, the terrain layout is quite important to the combat and impacts on the tactics used. For me, it adds to the realism when the tactics I use in combat make use of the terrain rather than depend on a terrain roll.

Cheers,

[Dain]

Hey Ian,

...Really!? You've never seen non-simultaneous movement? We must be playing totally different styles of games. I've never seen simultaneous movement. For example, D&D 3rd ed where everyone rolls init on a D20 and each character ONLY moves on their initiative number, and takes their FULL movement at that time. The same was true for ShadowRun as well (although initiative there was a great deal more involved, and multiple passes occurred, it still was a "frozen world where only one piece moves at a time (barring initiative ties that is)).

What kind of games do the simultaneous stuff? I'd be interested in checking out the mechanics.

[Ian.Plumb]

Hi,

...Really!? You've never seen non-simultaneous movement? We must be playing totally different styles of games. I've never seen simultaneous movement. For example, D&D 3rd ed where everyone rolls init on a D20 and each character ONLY moves on their initiative number, and takes their FULL movement at that time.

Such an approach makes no sense.

Like I mentioned earlier, we're probably not using miniatures in the same way as most people. I say that simply because we don't encounter the sort of restrictions others have mentioned on this thread. I'm not saying the way we play is better or worse, simply different.

The rules we currently play are loosely based on a combination of Chivalry and Sorcery 1st edition and HârnMaster 1st edition. Various House Rules have been introduced to make the systems work together and the combat system work with miniatures.

In a month's time we'll be using TRoS for the first time. We'll use the miniatures and probably lose the terrain roll concept, but otherwise stick as close to core rules as possible (bearing in mind a 14th century setting rather than a fantasy setting).

Cheers,

[Muggins]

Sheesh! Simultaneous miniature use! That's new for me.

About the closest we ever came was one system where everybody wrote their actions down, and the DM had to sort the instantaneous mess out. Gruesome.

James

[Ian.Plumb]

Hi,

Sheesh! Simultaneous miniature use! That's new for me.

About the closest we ever came was one system where everybody wrote their actions down, and the DM had to sort the instantaneous mess out. Gruesome.

In use it's actually not particularly complicated.

Each character controls a certain amount of space around them, an amount which varies with weapon length. Any enemy entering that space causes both characters to be engaged. After this point movement rates are no longer a factor as either character can only disengage under particular circumstances and are otherwise restricted to 5' of movement per exchange.

For those characters that are not engaged movement is only an issue until they are engaged or while they operate within the combat environment (that is, once a character leaves the combat environment movement is handled abstractly). Generally speaking this will only happen to several characters simultaneously at the start of the fight or at the end of the fight. It is very hard to move around the combat zone without entering someone's engagement zone, so the simultaneous movement issue soon resolves itself -- opponents will usually move towards each other and engage.

We rule that if you wish to strike a blow and move in the same turn then you only get half movement. In practice that's 3 or 4 hexes. So the range for landing a blow on someone you are not currently engaged with is not great. So if you disengage (say by incapacitating your opponent), if an opponent is within line-of-sight and within half movement you can move, engage, and strike during the next exchange. Otherwise, the whole period is spent locating an opponent, moving, and engaging -- striking on the next turn.

The writing down your orders thing doesn't work -- in combat your decisions are based on the changing environment rather than deciding what you'll do and sticking to that goal regardless of what other people are doing.

Cheers,

[Tash]

I've personally never been big on miniatures for RPGs.  I like it all to happen from a "narrative" standpoint.  But once I started DMing seriously I realized that some kind of basic sketch of a battle is invaluable so the players know with greater accuracy what I'm trying to describe.

My favorite tool for this is a small (11x24") dry erase board.  I mark out in permanent marker small X's every inch along each axis.  This gives me a grid of 1x1" squares that I can then sketch scenes on top of using colored dry erase markers.  When I need a new battlefield I just wipe the board down (no need to worrk about the grid) and draw one.  

Quite handy.