Translations

[Matt Gwinn]

Hey, I just received an offer to have my game Kayfabe translated into Italian and publish it in Italy.  I was wondering if anyone else has received such an offer and if so, how did you handle it?

I have no idea what a fair price would be for granting such rights.  I hear gaming is pretty big over there and I've sold just as many copies of Kayfabe to Italian gamers as British or Canadian.

I'm not opposed to the idea, but I don't want to get screwed either.

Any thoughts?

,Matt

[montag]

both InSpectres (Jared A. Sorensen) and Little Fears (Jason L. Blair) have been translated to German. Jürgen Mayer, who did InSpectres, can be found around here occasionally.
Probably best to ask them.

[Valamir]

I have been approached to translate Universalis several times (5 at last count).  Everysingle one of them flaked out and disappeared at various stages in the process.  Only one of those even bothered to get back in contact later to explain the delay.  So first, take any offer with a grain of salt.

Second, there's a whole lot of different approaches I've seen people use.  Some will actually want exclusive distribution rights for the translation for which they print the copies, make the money, and you get a small fee up front for letting them.  Definitely negotiate the size of the print run and put in writing that the arrangement is only good for 1 print run only if you decide to go that route.

Third.  I've sold a ton of copies all over Europe.  Europeans are much better at becoming bi lingual than we are.  Largely I expect because so many of them live within a 2 hour drive of a whole nother country, while most of us could drive for 2 days and never leave English speaking territory.

So other than the prestige (and it is pretty cool) to say "My Game's been translated into XXXX"; is it really going to help sales?  Don't know for sure.  How many Italian gamers are there who a) don't read English, b) can read English but won't buy your game unless its in Italian, and c) don't play in a group with someone willing to read the game in English even if they're not?  

If you still have emails of folks in Italy you've sold the game to, write them and ask them about the scene.  Maybe there are huge reserves of potential customers dieing to play Kayfabe who fall into one of the above.  Maybe they'll tell you not to waste your time.  I've had gamers in Germany tell me they prefer to buy the English translations because often the foreign translations aren't very good and they like to use the game texts to practice reading English.

But it seems to me (speculation hat on) that Kayfabe isn't all that large of a game to have to read, or all that complex of a game to have to read more than once.  If they're familiar with wrestling, than just a few minutes of someone explaining the rules is probably all of the contact most players will need to have with the rule book.  So really how much value added is there in a translation?

[montag]

How many Italian gamers are there who a) don't read English, b) can read English but won't buy your game unless its in Italian, and c) don't play in a group with someone willing to read the game in English even if they're not?

Since it was recently discussed on a German board, I can add (d) people who hate getting languages mixed up during play and expand on (c) in that it's a real problem if someone in your group can't speak English and has no idea what you are talking about if you refer to a specific game concept in English (and rote learning is the only way out, based on someone's explanation, they can't even look it up). It requires a truckload of trust to play a game where you can't look up the rules and know only that part of a second-hand explanation, which you can remember. And it makes you look stupid every time you have to ask again about something, because you forgot.

Plus, there's the segment of gamers, usually rather young, who hesitate to buy a game because they don't trust their English enough to get the rules right.

Ralph is however right on the money when it comes to the quality of translation, you should definitively seek some trusted third party to check the translation.

[Jürgen Mayer]

Ok, seems like a topic for me.

A pretty standard royalty rate for translations is 10% of all net receipts the publisher is receiving. That's a good starting point for negotiations on both sides.

Sometimes, publishers offer advance royalties, i.e. they pay you lets say 100 bucks up front when the contract is signed, and then they substract the royalties they make in the future from it, and after the 100 bucks are earned by your 10% rate, they'll pay you your cut every 6 months (or 3). Advance royalties mean that your publishers has less cash for the production of the product. I, as a publisher, would rather like to spend that money it to get more quality artwork (have a look at my edition of InSpectres ;) - but, since I'm doing business with people that know and trust me, they don't fear that I'll back out two years after the contract is signed with no product - if you're doing business with some stranger, maybe it would be a good idea to give them a reason to actually publish the book or loose the 100 bucks advance they already paid you). BTW the amount of advance royalties can, for example, be calculated to match the expected royalty income of the first quarter or half year.

If the risk for the small press pubisher should be kept to a minimum (they'll spend a lot of money without knowing if they'll ever make it back), and you want to help them out, you could negotiate that they don't pay royalties to you until after they break even with the product. (I.E. not 10% of net receipts, but 10% of profits.)

Of course, depending on the circumstances and negotiations (see the different options, above), you can go down to 8% or up to 12% or what do I know.

But, now for the important part:
We're talking about indie games here, so don't expect to make large sums of money - the publisher probably won't make that much (if any) and probably does it because he loves the game and not because of the bottom line. So, if you hope for lots of money, you don't need to bother. If you hope for spreading your game and getting more people interested in it and playing it, go for it.

If you go for it, I can provide you with a standard license contract.

[Dav]

Apophis is involved with 7th Circle, as well as some analogues in Spain, Portugal, Japan, and China.  We have hammered forth a pretty ironclad deal of 15%.  

I love translations.  Not only is it fun to involve yourself in the minor tweaks and changes to go with each culture, it tends to be free money.  I love getting a check for simply existing.

The French Obsidian went with the original cover, and includes an adventure in the back of the book.  The Spanish translation is almost just a spanish version of the US.  The Japanese version is completely fucking nuts.  Everything is 100% slanted to KILL EVERYTHING.  The Chinese version completely changes where the game is set (which would be China for the Chinese version).  The US doesn't even exist in the Chinese version.

Seriously, if you have an offer, check what games they have done in the past, if they have other games they translate and distribute, and, if they seem legitimate, and you can cut a deal you like, go for it.

(and Jurgen, you should make the German Obsidian go.  Between you and Oliver, you guys have all the knowledge....)

Dav

[Matt Wilson]

So in these translation situations, is it an entirely new publication, or is it the original layout (say, the same .indd file* with images) with the text swapped out? Does the translator take on the job (and costs) of getting the new book printed?

*yes, Luke, if you're listening, I switched.

[Dav]

For us, it was a new publication.  They used their own fonts, a new layout, and (if I recall correctly) a different border.  The art was the same, but they arranged it how they liked.

Dav

[Matt Gwinn]

Those of you who have had games translated,
Did you pay your artists for each translation?  I mean, is a translation legally considered to be simply a new print run of the same game, or is it a different publication altogether?

This is important because artwork is a big cost.  The guys in Italy are only planning to do a 50 to 100 copy print run and won't do PDF sales.  If they need to pay for the art it may not be worth their effort.

,Matt Gwinn

[Andy Kitkowski]

Here's the standard deal in Japan, that I like. This applies to printed media only, BTW, not things like PS2/PC Games and Anime:

1) There are no advances.  There are no promise fees. They take the angle of charging publishing, not selling.

2) The translator/producer keeps track of how many copies they PUBLISH (NOT Sell).  For every printing of the game they do, they pay the creators 3% of the Cover Price of their stack of published goods.  So if I translate OCTANE into Swahili, and print 200 copies and put the Sale Price at $50 each (total $10000), the total I would owe Jared is about $300. If I produce more copies, I owe them more money.

3) Note that this only applies to the translation and publishing itseld.  If the producer owns the rights to all the art in the book, then that is another story, and should be negotiated on the side.

4) The above is also for the print economy as well.  If they were going to release it as a PDF, that would require little effort on their part, and not as many middlemen with deep pockets... but then you'll probably have to go to a "price by amount sold", since there are no print runs on PDFs.

In the end, I like this deal.  It takes off the worries of the original creator, and gives them a modest amount, and no worries about having to track the price, etc.  It puts the weight on the translator-publisher to:

1) Sell as many copies as possible, and be held accountable for sales (to make sure they make as much cash as possible).

2) Be realistic when planning print runs, based on what they think they can sell.

It also closes a lot of weird sales loopholes.

-Andy

[Andy Kitkowski]

This is important because artwork is a big cost.  The guys in Italy are only planning to do a 50 to 100 copy print run and won't do PDF sales.  If they need to pay for the art it may not be worth their effort.

If you owe the rights to the art, you are free to negotiate the price.

If the artists hold the rights to the art, you could either:

1) Contact them, tell them the story, and ask them to drop their prices by half or so for the Italian edition.
a) If they do, they get more money.
b) If they don't, the deal falls through and they get nothing.

2) Ask the Italian guys to contact your artists themselves and try to negotiate.  Or just have them find new artists.

[Jürgen Mayer]

We have hammered forth a pretty ironclad deal of 15%.

That's a pretty good deal!  

(and Jurgen, you should make the German Obsidian go.  Between you and Oliver, you guys have all the knowledge....)

I know I should ;) But I should also do TROS, Sorcerer and all other great indie games... and for that I'd have to win the lottery and quit my day job.

So in these translation situations, is it an entirely new publication, or is it the original layout (say, the same .indd file* with images) with the text swapped out? Does the translator take on the job (and costs) of getting the new book printed?

Most of the time, the translated edition will be layouted new - the backgrounds and images might stay the same, but for example the german translation of an english text is about 150% as long as the original. The translator will sign a license that allows him to publish the book in his language - he has to take care of everything concerning production, this includes paying for it.

Did you pay your artists for each translation? I mean, is a translation legally considered to be simply a new print run of the same game, or is it a different publication altogether?

This depends on the contract with your artists. If you have the rights to use the pictures how often you want to, no problem. If you just have a license to use them in one specific book or one print run only, the translator can either try to buy the rights for the translation or buy entirely new artwork for the new edition.

[edomaur]

I have been approached to translate Universalis several times (5 at last count).  Everysingle one of them flaked out and disappeared at various stages in the process.  Only one of those even bothered to get back in contact later to explain the delay.  So first, take any offer with a grain of salt.

Well... Sorry about that.

I'm one of the bad guys. (But I cannot remember if it was me who contact you for explaining, if not, I'm uber-sorry.)

Actually, 2dSF has simply not the first cent for paying the translation. For the moment, our business is not successfull enough to publish "experimental" games. It is a pain. A real one.

I had made some contacts with people on this website, but nothing can be done now. Perhaps one day ?

(Btw, every game here simply rocks ! )