Nearly, but now its Adventure!

[Ian O'Rourke]

I nearly had it, but it slipped through my fingers. I was pitching a narrativist game, relationship maps, with links into kickers, etc, the lot. The prospective players where within a hairs whisker of picking it as the game I should run and then the voting shifted. Doh!

Voting? May be I should step back a bit. Two of us a GM'ing next year, so we offered the players (four of them) three options, the one they wanted was the game we played. I put for vote:

Thrilling Tales - essentially Adventure!
Glenwood Springs - the narrative one about human nature and the consequences of choices (UA at its base)
Star Wars D20

Now, they were going to choose Glenwood Springs, but then someone shifted his vote and by any measure Thrilling Tales one - the trouble is I was really getting a kick out of some of their kickers and how I could integrate that into the map of Glenwood Springs (hell, their kickers - two did them - were creating the damn map and writing the thing for me).

Anyway, I *really* want to play Adventure! but how can I get some of narrative stuff in this game, while still allowing for more than one mini-series? If I had a kicker it will almost certainly have a life only for that series?

Basically, how can Sorcerer principles and Adventure! merge, or are they poles apart?

[Tor Erickson]

Okay, quick question.  Where can I find out more about Adventure!   What kind of a game is it?

However, a brief answer without that information would include the following.  As several Forgies have testified, Kickers work really well for many different kinds of games.  I'm currently thinking along the lines that while not all narrative media, such as movies and books, involve relationship maps, they all involve Kickers.

Second, if a full-blown relationship map is inappropriate for the game you'll be playing, maybe a trimmed down one would do.  A lot of movies and books are based around a relationship map much, much simpler than those found in detective fiction.  Sometimes there's just one or two nodes on the map (a father and a son), but the connecting factors that remain are still the same factors that you find in detective fiction, and would still give great emotional weight to the game.

For example, say you want to run a sci-fi game.  Instead of having the game focus on the evil empire's attempts to squash the good rebels, have at the center of the story the fact that the evil empire princess is in love with a rebel pilot.  

Finally, just because Sorcerer and sorcerous Relationship Maps tends to be dark, intense, and hardcore, doesn't mean that narrativism is dark, intense, and hardcore (I bring up narrativism here because I associate the techniques you mention, Kickers and RMs, with it).

-Tor

[Ian O'Rourke]

Adventure! can be found at White Wolf's site - it is basically a game of pulp adventure. Think Doc Savage and Indiana Jones.

The problem I have, is I'm beginning to think the genre/setup of such a campaign makes relationship maps and kickers difficult. It seems more friendly towards the old method of using flow charts to map locations and scenes, etc.

The relationship map and kicker issue seems to work well in tightly focused games. Say the story of characters in a particular city?

How does it apply to globe trotting adventurers who may facing down a mad scientist with poison filled zeppelins one minute and strange cultists in the congo the next?

At the same time, one does not want to loose the personal drive that the relationship map and the kickers bring.

[Ben Morgan]

The relationship map and kicker issue seems to work well in tightly focused games. Say the story of characters in a particular city?

How does it apply to globe trotting adventurers who may facing down a mad scientist with poison filled zeppelins one minute and strange cultists in the congo the next?

Simple. Just expand the scope of the relationship map. You can have people on the map that are in different locations. Just because the good professor is thousands o miles away doesn't mean he's any less of a mentor to the beautiful heroine. If set in the 20's, telegraph and short-wave radio are good ways to communicate. I could be wrong, but I'd think that phones weren't all that common yet (Sorry, tangent).

Although, I would venture to posit that dealing with mad scientists and congo cultists would probably be separate stories, unless they're happening concurrently, in which case, that's just weird. :smile:

[Ben Morgan]

The relationship map and kicker issue seems to work well in tightly focused games. Say the story of characters in a particular city?

How does it apply to globe trotting adventurers who may facing down a mad scientist with poison filled zeppelins one minute and strange cultists in the congo the next?

Simple. Just expand the scope of the relationship map. You can have people on the map that are in different locations. Just because the good professor is thousands o miles away doesn't mean he's any less of a mentor to the beautiful heroine. If set in the 20's, telegraph and short-wave radio are good ways to communicate. I could be wrong, but I'd think that phones weren't all that common yet (Sorry, tangent).

Although, I would venture to posit that dealing with mad scientists and congo cultists would probably be separate stories, unless they're happening concurrently, in which case, that's just weird. :smile:

[Tor Erickson]

Hi Ian,

Well, there are others more qualified than myself to answer this, but I do have a few thoughts.

First, remember that the Kicker doesn't have to directly tie into the story.  One of the many things that it can do (and perhaps the most important) is give the story emotional weight for the character, and to involve the player as well.  The example Ron loves to cite is Die Hard, where the Kicker is that Bruce Willis is on the verge of breaking up with his wife.  Most of the movie would seem to have nothing to do with this, but, in fact, it is the reason behind his actions, and his emotional motivation for doing what he does.  So in this sense, players can write Kickers that superficially seem to have nothing to do with the story at hand (dueling Nazis in Zeppelins over the pyramids in Egypt),  but that give the game a much greater sense of emotional weight (why are they dueling Nazis over the pyramids?  No, not "because Nazis are evil and must be eliminated", though this is the route that bad pulp fiction and comics sometimes take.  But why is this character doing it?  What's their personal stake?  Though perhaps this is starting to edge over into backstory).  

Also, using Kickers in this way shifts the focus of the game in a sneaky kind of way.  Again, superficially the game may seem to be about pulp adventure, but in reality it's about resolving the Kickers themselves, using the medium of pulp adventure.  The important thing here is to write Kickers that are more than just reasons to get to the action (like Melodramatic Plot Hooks are in Feng Shui).  Instead, as it says in Sorcerer, Kickers need to present some sort of a thorny situation for the character to resolve, and there should be more than one way of resolving it.  So what if I have a character, Johnnie Rock, a pulp hero, and my Kicker is this:  "recently, on a spy mission to Transylvania, Johnnie got in a fight with a Nazi guard and broke his neck.  As he looked at the body sprawled out on the floor, however, he realized that it was nothing more than a boy of 16 or 17.  Since then the face of the youth has haunted his dreams."  That's it.  Now, go ahead and run the upcoming adventure with the zeppelins and jet packs and pyramids, but now it's about Johnnie struggling with notions of evil and guilt and identity.  Maybe the game ends with Johnnie spending his life to save the life of a stormtrooper who reminds him of the boy he killed.  Maybe it doesn't, but the game is now about Johnnie and the decisions he makes and the players reactions to those decisions.

-Tor

[Tor Erickson]

Oh yeah, the relationship maps and focus.  Well, I could be wrong, but thinking of the source material, it seems like involved Relationship Maps might not be appropriate.  Maybe one or two familial connections or a romantic interest, but beyond that I think a web of familiy, sex, betrayal and murder would probably be considerably altering the genre.
-Tor

[joshua neff]

I agree with Tor. I could see doing a relationship map-based scenario for a gritty Shadow-esque (or even grittier Spider-esque) drama, but not for a Doc Savage-y globetrotting cliffhanger. I'd just go with the bangs. Throw lots of conflict & mystery at the players, with no forethought to how it should be resolved.

[jburneko]

I thought I'd jump in here.  I think people think of Premise and Theme and Relationship Maps and they imediately get all "deep" and thoughtful and their minds start wandering towards old musty classics like Wuthering Heights and a Tale of Two Cities.  So how does Premise and Theme fit in with fast paced largely action/adventure oriented material like Pulp adventures?

Easy.  People are forgetting about SIMPLE stories.  That's what pulp adventures are.  They're simple stories.  They have a basic Premise with a simple Theme.  Let's analyze Raiders of the Lost Arc from a Premise/Theme Narrativist point of view.

I think if Raiders were planned as an RPG scenario it WOULD be planned using the standard sort of scene outlines, clue lists and flow charts method.  Even if it were a Narrativist style game.  I maintain that you could use this structure complete with things like REQUIRING the players to obtain the medallion and REQUIRING them to visit the Well of Souls and all those sort of railroady things and still have a fairly strong Narrativist game.  This relates to that other discussion laying around here about things like the assassination of the Duke of Buckingham in the Three Musketeers.

Obtaining the Amulet, visiting the Well of Souls and racing to find the Arc are all cool and exciting elements of the story but they are not what the story is ABOUT.  These things are not what establishes Indy as a protagonist in the Narrativist sense.

Okay so how to do we turn a fairly standard gamist/simulationist treasure hunt into a story in the Narrativist sense.  We add Premise and we add elements that allow the players to address that Premise and author a Theme for their characters.

So what's the Premise of Raiders of the Lost Arc?  The Premise is: What's the value of history?  So what elements support this Premise.

First of all there's Indy himself.  People always think of indy as this tough adventurer.  He's not.  Or rather he is but only by accident.  By the way I'm only talking about the original film here and not any lights that may have been turned on in later films.  Indy's a college professor.  He's an academic.  He's not driven by lust for fame or glory or riches.  He's driven by his love of history and for preserving and respecting the past.

The second element is the villain, Belloch (sp?).  Belloch is basically the Shadow Indy.  Indy uses his talents altruistically in an effort to enrich the world.  Belloch is a profiteer willing to sell out history to the highest bidder.  He's driven by simple greed.  Even if Indy and Belloch had not previously encountered each other Belloch's nature supports the Premise.

The final element that makes Raiders of the Lost Arc a good story in the Narrativist sense really can't be PLANNED for in an RPG.  But they can be ALLOWED for and encouraged by providing ample opportunity for this kind of thing.  There are probably several smaller moments like this but this particular moment is the clincher that really establishes Indy as a protagonist and more importantly illustrates his theme.

Towords the end Indy points a bazooka at the arc and threatens to blow it up if they don't release Merrian.  And Belloch says, "Go Ahead."  And Indy makes his choice.  Premise: What's the price of history?  Indy's Theme: History is Priceless.  He can't do it.  He'd rather fight harder and risk himself and his love for that matter than destroy something as historically significant as that artifact.

As I said this last point can't be planned for or forced but it's an example of an element that can be played and that the players and the GM should be watching for.  The difference between a railroading GM and the Narrativist GM is that the Narrativist GM wouldn't try to stop the player if he wanted to blow it up.  Even if the GM had this cool supernatural ending all planned the Narrativist GM would recognize this moment as a protagonizing/Theme authoring moment.  The GM would let him blow it up.  Let the player author his theme.  If he did blow it up then the Theme would change to something like: Preserving history is not worth the risk of empowering your enemies.

So really there are only three key Narrativist elements in Raiders of the Lost Arc, everything else I think can be planned as normal.  Simple Premise, Simple Theme.  The Nazis, the Amulet, the Well of Souls, Gaining the Arc, Losing the Arc, all these are just events used to color the central Premise.

Oh and one last point that I think might be important to note.  In terms of the ADVENTURE Indy wins.  His enemies are defeated and he saves the Arc.  In terms of the Premise driven STORY Indy LOSES.  He fails badly.  All of this work and effort to preserve this artifact for the artifact's sake and it's taken away and hidden from the world that Indy was so desperately wanting to share his incredible find with.

I hope this helps.

Jesse

[Ian Freeman]

Hmm... I'm not too familiar with Adventure! but here are some little suggestions.

Kickers

Kickers tend to be used for shortish campaigns where characters are not expected to continue for dozens of sessions. That way, it's easier to resolve the kicker. In an ongoing campaign, you just need to have more than one kicker. In most series' (like indiana jones) each "episode" of the series will feature a different kicker for the protagonist. That would be a bit clunky in an RPG, so it can be handled through a "sub-plot" model. As the first (the active) kicker starts winding towards a conclusion the player gains some authorial power to devise a new kicker which the GM then introduces (and builds up to) as the player moves toward resolving his current kicker. Once that kicker is resolved, the new kicker comes into full effect. Or it comes into full effect after some time, or whatever.

Relationships Maps.

To handle relationship maps, you need to create them on the fly essentially. Whenever a character encounters an NPC and the actions of the player tend to indicate that this person is interesting to that player then that character should become more central to the plot. When a character becomes central like this they get placed down on an RM (and get linked, if necessarry and feasible, to currently existing important characters). Once they are on this map, they gain two totally new relationships with people the GM makes up on the fly. So... characters who players are interested in get inserted into the current RM and cause a branch to be made in the overall picture. If the Players get interested in one of these newly created characters, then the GM get's to make up more relationships for these newly important people, etc...

Also, high adventure like this often deals in broad strokes. To handle that you can have an RM consisting of "forces" or organizations in society and charting how they interelate.

[Ian O'Rourke]

Thanks for the info, I think it was Jesse's analysis of Indiana Jones that got me thinking - along with another thread on running games with a mission based structure.

So, the result is....

Yes run a game of globe-trotting adventure, epic scenery and cool action scenes via a plot that is mechanically constructed via a flow-chart, much like Raiders of the Lost Arc.

Then behind it all together with a relationship map. I intend to have a Relationship Map for the whole arc, the enemies the NPCs, the organisations, etc to provide the narrativist/emotional impact that will drive the flow diagrams.

So they may be hopping from place to place and, discovering the back-story, but only because of reasons and drivers in the relationship map.

Good compromise considering the genres 'concepts' I think?