Stats how many and which?

[bergh]

Hi Guys im making a new system for my future Warhammer 40.000 RPG campaign, and i really want characters with lots of stats, i hate that in some games some stats reflects severel things...this i dont wanna have.
So far i have made these, do i need more/less? should i chance some of them?

instead of the Physcial/Mental thing, should i instead go for Body/Mind/Soul instead, as i have seen some other guys do?

Please give me some ideas i can work with.
what scale should i use? 0-10 or 1-20 or 1-100
---------------
Physical stats:         
Strength:   Physical strength.
Stamina:   Physical health, healing time.
Size:         Mass and weight of person.
Dexterity:  Dexterity and agility.
Comeliness: How nice the person looks
Toughness:  Damage capacity.
Speed:       Physical speed of person.

Mental Stats:         
Reaction:  Perception and reflexes.
Willpower:  Power of the mind to withstand ex. Pain.
Ego:  Power of problem solving and how easy the person learns.
Nerve:  Self control in stressful situations.
Charisma:  The characters charisma.
Leadership:  Self-discipline,natural ability to command others
Sanity: Health/Strength of the mind/soul.

[Olibarro]

Wow. I personally prefer minimal stats (like four or five) or none at all, but...

As long as you're statting the crap out of things, why not separate Agility and Manual Dexterity into two different items? And then, under mental traits, I can't believe you lumped Perception in with Reaction time. Or maybe you need something more along the lines of an Intuition stat.

[Andrew Martin]

Hi Guys im making a new system for my future Warhammer 40.000 RPG campaign, and i really want characters with lots of stats, i hate that in some games some stats reflects severel things...this i dont wanna have.
So far i have made these, do i need more/less? should i chance some of them?

Wouldn't it be best to simply stick with the stats that Games Workshop (GW) gives for the various characters and models in it's Warhammer 40,000 wargame? In other words:

M WS BS S T W I A Ld

Choosing any other system would seem to me to disorient players who are all ready familiar with GW's products, greatly increase your workload when converting any nifty new model that comes out from GW, and give you more headaches when your different system gives different results from GW's wargames systems on the table-top battlefield.

[Shreyas Sampat]

Hold on there.

I'm going to put my Ron hat on for a second.
Posting in Indie Game Design indicates an intent to publish. This means you have to step very carefully around licensed properties.

Are you:
a) Developing a WH40k game?
b) Developing a game influenced by WH40k?
c) Developing a game that you intend to use for WH40k, but isn't intrinsically built to support it?

B and C are okay, but A isn't, unless you have already acquired the license to do so.

Now as for your design.

I feel that some of these things that you have as separate stats are interrelated - someone who is unusually dextrous will be able to run faster across an uneven field, because he is less likely to find uneven footing or slip; someone who operates better in stressful situations is likely to be a good problem-solver, because that's what people do in stressful situations.

Do you want strange instances like extremely fast, clumsy characters to be possible in your game? If so, then your setup looks fine. But if you don't want such character types to be possible, then you might want to look at some different kind of approach.

[Mike Holmes]

How about no stats, and just enumerate whatever is special about the character? Per HQ, Story Engine, etc, etc?

Mike

[Andrew Morris]

I have to agree with the others who've posted -- I prefer fewer stats. I'd say 10 is about the maximum I'd be comfortable with. I think the "sweet spot" is between 3 and 8, but hey, that's just my opinion.

Random points -- you need a better definition of Charisma, since defining a term with the term itself doesn't clear anything up.

[Dauntless]

I prefer Simulationist type games, so I'm all for creating as many stats as you feel are necessary to model the experiences you wish to give from your game.

In other words don't just create stats for stats sake, but think about the detail necessary to model the game essence that you want to get across.  As I was mentioning in RPG.net, a game like Paranoia wouldn't need so many stats, but a game like Twillight 2000 probably would.

Your stats mostly mirror mine, but I have a few slight differences.  Strength is not a primary attribute, but actually a derived attribute based on the character Height, Weight, and Fitness.  Strength is actually called Neuro-Muscular Control and is itself is broken into two sub-attributes, Power (which I'm thinking of renaming to Speed) and Force.  Force is how much force you can generate not regarding time (i.e, how much you can lift), and Power is how quickly  you can generate this Force.  This allows one to create a Bruce Lee type character who may not be able to lift as much as a bodybuilder, but can do more damage because he has more power than the bodybuilder (Power = Force/Time).  Some have said this is a matter of skill and not Speed, but I disagree.  Power in martial arts is really the ability to concentrate all your muscular power as quickly as possible, while relaxing all antagonistic muscles.  Bruce was known to have broken 2" think wooden boards by throwing them in the air and kicking them...no one holding the board back, i.e. the only force acting to counter the kick (Newton's 3rd Law) was air resistance.  This is strictly a matter of speed.

For Comeliness I put this as a sub-attribute under Charisma (and call it Attractiveness), and Charisma's other sub-attribute is Presence (which you call Leadership).  Instead of Dexterity, I call it Kinesthetic Control, and it is broken down into Agility (whole body movement and balance) and Coordination (the coordination of one or more limbs in conjunction with awareness).  Stamina I have also broken down into Aerobic and Anaerobic endurance to seperate the Sprinter from the Marathoner.

Reaction is a derived stat that is the average of the character's Awareness (which is a sub-attribute of Intelligence), Power, and Kinesthetic Control.  What you call Willpower I have as Discipline, which is a sub-attribute of Willpower.  Nerve is what I call Focus, and Focus is the other sub-attribute of Willpower.  Leadership is my Presence sub-attribute.  Sanity in my game is called Psyche, and is actually a Damage Track System (which is formulated by adding Willpower and some character perks).  

I also have beyond this 5 Personality traits, and a set of player defined Principles, which are the convictions and beliefs that a character has.  Personality traits can offer bonuses and penalties depending on game context.  The Personality Traits are:

Ego- How humble or group-minded a person is, or how self-centered or independent one is.
Emotion- How easily the character wears his emotions on his sleeves.  This trait can have sub-psyche traits
Empathy- How easily a character can relate to the feelings of others.
Trust- How easily can a character trust someone?  Is he gullible or does he require a lot of convincing?
Adaptable- How stubborn a character is.  An open-minded character is one that can more readily change his opinion or mind and accept new ways.

[Alex Johnson]

SS beat me to it.  This forum is for those games that will be PUBLISHED.  Publishing licensed properties is a tricky thing and chances are you don't intend that but instead just want to make a custom game for yourself and your friends.  If that is the case, this should be moved to RPG Theory.

[Henri]

It seems to me that by splitting up with so many stats, you have a lot of overlap between them.  Maybe you could make some derived from others.  Like Shreyas said, otherwise you get some really weird characters.  For example, if Toughness determines damage, then what's up with Strength?  Assuming that you have a pool of points to divide between them, that would imply that there is a trade-off between being strong and being tough.  This seems counter-intuitive.

The same goes for willpower and nerve, and charisma and leadership.  Also, the naming for ego is a little weird.  Sounds to me like a straight-up intelligence stat.  The word "Ego" for me suggests something more like what you call willpower or sanity.

The problem I have with this is that if I were GM-ing this game I would get really confused about which stat was appropriate.  I'd be like, "Uh.. roll your willpower.. no, roll your nerves.  No, scratch that, roll sanity instead."  And the player would be like, "Make up your F&*%$-ing mind, dude."  I prefer 4-6 stats, but if you want lots of stats, I don't have a problem with that, per se.  But it needs to be clear how they are different from each other.

Oh, I should add that I'm assuming that you are writing this game to be read and understood by other people.  If it is just a home-brew that no one but you is ever going to run, its less of a problem if the stats are confusing, as long as YOU have a clear idea in your head.  But as others have said, if that is the case, this is not the appropriate forum.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

This thread is closed. And shame on everyone except the initial poster, Alex, and Shreyas.

Best,
Ron