RPGs in Toy Stores

[Matt Gwinn]

I was first introduced to roleplaying about 20 years ago.  I was in the toy store browsing and I found a rack of D&D stuff.  I didn't know what they were at the time, but a friendly gamer was standing nearby and was more than happy to explain it to me - I was hooked ever since.

I've been to many toys stores since and I never see RPGs, not even D&D.  Why is that?  The only place I see them is Hobby/Comic shops and Book stores.  I don't know about the rest of you, but when I was 12 I didn't spend nearly as much time in book stores as I did in the local toy store.

Could it be that the reason the gaming crowd is getting older and older is because younger potentials never see the games?

Toy stores and department stores all over the country carry magic cards and Yugi-o cards, but not RPGs.  Do you suppose there is still a negative stigma attached to RPGs that deters stores from carrying them?

What really surprises me is that Hasbro owns D&D and even that doesn't find its way into mainstream stores.

Have any of you made an effort to get your game mainstream exposure? Do distributors even make an effort to get games into mainstream stores?

Any thoughts?

,Matt

[madelf]

My thought is that D&D has long since grown beyond the scope of the average 12 year old attention span.
The games that are simple and straightforward enough for a 12 year old to pick up and play aren't (or aren't in a position to be) marketing to the toy stores.

Personally I think a line of games with strong role-play elements but clevery disguised as children's games (and possibly even aimed at children under 12, or marketed as "family games" parents play with their children) would be able to find a place in toy stores and probably bring more people into the hobby.
The key I think is to break the tendency to get excited about rpgs being rpgs, and just present them as games. Don't even label them as a role-playing games. Role-playing games have this whole geek-cult vibe (even without the religious fanatics making stupid claims) that I'm sure puts off a lot of people. (I've lost track of the number of wary "Oh, okay. Really....huh" reactions I've gotten from "normal" people when they find out I'm a gamer) But I think games of "Let's Pretend" targeted at children (and probably with a good dose of board game or card game elements to blur the boundary) would go over better.
We could corrupt the children before the parents even knew what was happening. And then it woulf be too late!
Bhwaaa...hahahahaaha!
Erm.... sorry.


Unfortunately I certainly don't have the resources to attempt something like this myself, so my theory remains only a theory.

[xiombarg]

I have to agree that with video games giving more "instant gratification" that RPGs used to give that demographic, that pen and paper RPGs are likely to become a more "mature" activity, but I think that that isn't neccessarily a bad thing. I think it's premature to assume that RPGs are going the way of model trains, for example, which the whole "RPG players are aging" thing seems to assume.

New people are coming into the hobby. The fact that it isn't at the same rate as it once was doesn't mean that we should be overly concerned.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

I don't think I would want RPGs in a toy store. Many already think they are for kids and putting them in toy stores will just perpetuate that.

[b_bankhead]

Take a look at the above posts.  I think more than anything else this is the reason that the field can't break out of it's creative ,cultural and social ghetto.

I believe the biggest single problem is that a signifigant percentage of the crowd really likes it's ghetto. Really deep down doesn't want to try, they feel that something good or special will be lost once we invite in the 'barbarians.

Both JC Spencer and xiombarg seem more concerned with damaging their self-congratulating image of gaming as a 'mature' activity than a golden opportunity to introduce people to the hobby early in their lives, during a time rich with potential to form lifelong positive associations with the it.  Given that the lack of an accessible RPG product in the toy stores for at least 15 years hasn't changed the 'kiddy' image of the field, then the blame can hardly be layed at the feet of such a product.  More likely I think overall ineptitude (and disinclination) at marketing to the larger world is the answer.

The way to make a product seem 'mature' isn't in striking some snobbish, rejecting pose for roleplaying as a whole, but in the product's content, packaging ,where and how it is sold and advertised, all things the RPG 'industry' takes great pains to learn nothing about.

That is why books aren't seen as 'kiddy' because The Cat in the Hat exists,
why videos aren't seen as 'kiddy' because you can buy tapes of 'Barney',marketing!

By the way xiombarg, the RPG 'industry' has a long way to go before it comes up to model trains, just ask any Hobbyland franchiser!

[timfire]

People can sometimes become complacent and overly comfortable with the "ghetto," but I don't think putting RPG's in toy stores is the answer. I don't even think it would be an effective way to introduce kids to the hobby. While I know there are cases of people who picked up a RPG and just started playing, most people have to be introduced by someone who already knows what they're doing. (Why do I get the feeling there's probably already been a thread on this topic?)

So I think a more effective way to get kids interested in RPG's is for an adult to run a "kiddie" campaign. (That's how I was introduced - when I was 7 my aunt ran a simplified DnD campaign for me, my sister, and my cousin.)

[xiombarg]

So I think a more effective way to get kids interested in RPG's is for an adult to run a "kiddie" campaign. (That's how I was introduced - when I was 7 my aunt ran a simplified DnD campaign for me, my sister, and my cousin.)

I'd agree with this. I see this as part of the maturity of the hobby, the older members of the hobby introducing it to younger members, performing outreach. I don't see how this is "staying in the ghetto" at all, though it's arguable whether we're in a "ghetto" or whether there are limits to the appeal of RPGs.

[b_bankhead]

"So I think a more effective way to get kids interested in RPG's is for an adult to run a "kiddie" campaign. (That's how I was introduced - when I was 7 my aunt ran a simplified DnD campaign for me, my sister, and my cousin.)

Terrible idea!  This 'spread by mentor' model is exactly why CCGs and Heroclix and other game forms can blast past rpgs in terms of recruitment.  It's dependent upon the goodwill of your costumers to do your recruitment and teaching for you. One reason is rpg groups stop recruiting once they reach  optimum size, the other reason is they might actually have better things to do......!

The answer to the problem is not this kind of  inefficient recruitment mechanism.  The answer is developing RPG designs that aren't dependent upon it.  And that means RPGs that people can learn on their own.   Don' know how to do this?  Well maybe the Forge should turn it's mighty theoretical engines to work on this issue, and stop trying to winnow leavings of the >200,000 rpg grognards that actually buy something by designing games for them(and 90% are perfectly happy with D&D and will NEVER take any serious interest in anything else).  I want games that someone who has never heard of an rpg (and for gods sake don't tell them they are playing one..!) can pick up and enjoy.

[xiombarg]

NEVER take any serious interest in anything else).  I want games that someone who has never heard of an rpg (and for gods sake don't tell them they are playing one..!) can pick up and enjoy.

We're wandering off the topic here, but I'm doing that with Unsung, and it's likely to be my model for any RPG I sell as a stand-alone game. That is, I always assume zero knowledge of RPGs.

That said, I'm still not sure that any of my games are ever going to appear in toy stores, and that's not my aim. To say it's "wrong" for RPGs to propagate as it they have been seems to assume an awful lot about the "right" way to do things, with very little evidence.

Can you learn to sky-dive in a toy store? Do you learn how to play baseball in a toy store? Do you become a historical re-enactor at a toy store? Do you learn how to play pool in a toy store? Do you lean surfing or hang-gliding from a book? Do you learn how to paint, or how to write, from something you pick up in a toy store? Do you learn how to carve soap at a toy store?

You, can, maybe, but most often you learn those activities from another human.

There are many other models for "successful" leisure activities that are not depenant on pushing large amounts of units through toy distributors, or even book distributors. Perhaps it is you, not I, who is stuck in a ghetto mentality.

[b_bankhead]

Can you learn to sky-dive in a toy store? Do you learn how to play baseball in a toy store? Do you become a historical re-enactor at a toy store? Do you learn how to play pool in a toy store? Do you lean surfing or hang-gliding from a book? Do you learn how to paint, or how to write, from something you pick up in a toy store? Do you learn how to carve soap at a toy store?

You, can, maybe, but most often you learn those activities from another human.

I find this list amazing because to be honest I don't see RPGs in this light at all.
Do you think it should be generally expected that rpgs should require the courage of skydiving ,the fortitude to live in the woods for a week with a Springfield rifle, or the daring to hang from Rogallo wing and jump from The Devil's Needle?  Damn straignt I'm looking for a mentor If I get the bug to do anything like this!

Likewise if I get the bug to paint (hell I already do and I'm shopping for lessons) I look or a mentor because I know that even a decent amatuer painting takes a LOT of experimentation and exercises, and technical concepts and developing a by no means trivial manual skill,on and on and on.

Do you really think playing an rpg is like that?

I do not. I think that rpgs are about sitting around with your friends creating cool characters who do neat stuff in cool environments.  That's it! That's what rpg's are!  An rpg should be something you can buy out of a toy store and just USE.

Nowhere do I suggest that all the people who engage in the mentoring model by rounded up and shipped off in cattle cars. I have every hope they will continue their good work.  By the same token there is ample reason to believe that complete dependence on this model has been behind the reason that rpgs have spent 30 years building up a market a fraction of that CCGs had in five.
It's not bad, it's not wicked, it's not even really  outdated.  But it's inefficient.

I'm certain if you could buy all you need to become a painter or hang glider at a toy store, there'd be a lot more of them.  But I really think you can buy everything you need to become a roleplayer from a toy store.

I guess (like most things) it's a matter of point of view.  I'm not satisfied to see rpgs remain an esoteric clique like skydiving.  I want to see them spread like dandelions, and I don't seen any inherent reason why they can't.  And I think the real key is designing games that don't PREVENT this from happening......

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Both JC Spencer and xiombarg seem more concerned with damaging their self-congratulating image of gaming as a 'mature' activity than a golden opportunity to introduce people to the hobby early in their lives, during a time rich with potential to form lifelong positive associations with the it.

Hey, Bryan.

Couple things.

First: JC???

Second, you seem to be taking this thread really personal-like. This is dangerously close to a personal attack and it appears to continue in following posts.

I hope you take a moment to reflect a bit before continuing.

[greedo1379]

Hey, new here.  This thread got me interested enough to register though.  I think what would need to be done to have an RPG in a toy store that succeeds is to design an RPG specifically for that niche.

In my mind the book would be as follows:
1) Simple - The rules have to be simple enough to be something that a person with no RPG experience can teach themselves.  Someone that is around 12 years old.  (I'm a big fan of the old Star Wars D6 system for exactly this reason, I still have the mental capacity of a 12 year old.  Alright, you got me.  8 year old.)

2) The Theme has to be something easy to understand, probably with a single main villain.  I'm thinking back to my He Man or GI Joe days.  If the party were something like Duke, Scarlett, Snake Eyes, and Roadblock (obviously the good guys) fighting against Cobra (obviously the bad guys)... well... that would be good.  Limit gray areas and complex character development, etc.

3) It has to come with a large book of ready made adventures.  GMing now is fun because you get to create nearly everything (except player responses).  But this is very frustrating when you first start out.  

Also, the adventures should be written so early on the players are more limited in their choices.  This could be done by... well (first thing to come to mind), by having Sergeant Slaughter being an NPC and offering only two choices to the players ("So maggots, do we want to barge through the front door or sneak around back?").  Later on the adventures become more open ended.  Both for the players and the GM.  Assuming you are selling this to someone who has never played (or even seen) and RPG before, you have to train these behaviors (improvising, etc.) slowly.  Make the 12 year old GM have to create everything from scratch and deal with his buddies (who make lame sex jokes for a half hour) is just too much for them most of the time.  I would have killed for a book like this back in the day.

So basically, I think it requires more than just a rack of D20 books sitting next to the baseball cards (I mean that would be sweet too but its not limited to that).  I think it really requires something designed from the ground up to be marketed to 12 year old guys (yeah, I am basically specifying a gender in my plan) wandering around toy stores.

[contracycle]

I don't think the toy store presence in any way compromises more adult-oriented RPG designs in other venues.  I could see RPG's in a toy store AND in a comic store AND perhaps in a sex store.  But it is the 10-12 age bracket in which almost every long term adult practice is established as a preference by its practitioners; by moving the point of entry into the essentially adult sphere of comic collectables (many such stores are not kid-friendly places) we are setting the entry level too high IMO.  The dedicated gaming storer is middle ground between these and the toy stores, but they first require that you know what you want.

And yes, IMO it has to be self-initiated walk-up that triggers the hobby.  Mentoring is a fine way to maintain numbers, but not very good at expanding numbers.  They have to be accessible, which to me means, self-contained.  A shelf-full of core products and supplements is intimidating, not welcoming.

[madelf]

I don't think the toy store presence in any way compromises more adult-oriented RPG designs in other venues.  I could see RPG's in a toy store AND in a comic store AND perhaps in a sex store.  But it is the 10-12 age bracket in which almost every long term adult practice is established as a preference by its practitioners; by moving the point of entry into the essentially adult sphere of comic collectables (many such stores are not kid-friendly places) we are setting the entry level too high IMO.  The dedicated gaming storer is middle ground between these and the toy stores, but they first require that you know what you want.

And yes, IMO it has to be self-initiated walk-up that triggers the hobby.  Mentoring is a fine way to maintain numbers, but not very good at expanding numbers.  They have to be accessible, which to me means, self-contained.  A shelf-full of core products and supplements is intimidating, not welcoming.

I suspect you're right on the money.

The only rpg I can recall seeing that fit that spec was the early D&D boxed sets. They had everything you needed (including the dice) and you didn't a training course or several days reading time to figure it out. When I first picked up the Basic set, my stepbrother and I were playing practically within minutes of opening the box (neither of us had ever played an rpg before). The add-ons,  Expert set and others, added additional rules and options painlessly. It was just about the perfect model for an entry level game.

I think it's great that rpgs have grown since then, but that entry-level model should still exist. Without it, I think the potential for growth in the industry is severely stunted. If you think about it, this is possibly the only entertainment industry that doesn't have a sub-group that markets to children. There are movies for children, books for children, computer software & video games for children, any number of board & other games for children... why no rpgs for children? Even without a presence in toy stores, it would still seem like there's an un-tapped niche there. Maybe something like that could be gotten into the bookstores?

[Matt Gwinn]

I think what would need to be done to have an RPG in a toy store that succeeds is to design an RPG specifically for that niche.

But it is the 10-12 age bracket in which almost every long term adult practice is established as a preference by its practitioners; by moving the point of entry into the essentially adult sphere of comic collectables (many such stores are not kid-friendly places) we are setting the entry level too high IMO.

I agree with both of these statements.  parents don't take their kids to comic stores unless there is something there the kid or parent is already looking for.  I really think toy stores are the best place to hook kids.  If the idea is to get new people into gaming we should be targeting places where kids go.

I think Hobby shops are good places too, which is a place RPGs are already avaialable.  Lots of people go to hobby stores to buy models, traines, rockets, etc. and are likely to be attracted to a prominent shelf of games.

Does anyone here that works in distribution know if any Toy Store chains have been approached in the past about carrying RPGs?  Do they attend Gamma or any other industry cons?

,Matt[/quote]